Post #19,944
12/2/01 3:58:50 AM
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2 Suicide Bombers Wreak Carnage in Jerusalem
[link|http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/02/international/02MIDE.html|Blasts Kill at Least Ten and Wound Over 130]
" In a tightly coordinated assault in the heart of Jerusalem, two Palestinian bombers blew themselves up at each end of a crowded block of a pedestrian mall Saturday night, killing at least 10 other people and wounding about 150 more.
...
The bombs, packed with nuts and screws, strewed severed limbs and chunks of flesh across the paving stones, amid fragmented glass, shredded clothing, and mannequins from a women's clothing store. The air smelled of burned flesh, and blood was spattered more than 20 feet up, above the shattered windows of a shop selling postcards and T- shirts.
...
Dan Meridor, a minister in Mr. Sharon's government, said of General Zinni: "I think he really was taught a lesson by Arafat, and I hope the lesson learned is that there's no evenhandedness here, no neutrality or objectivity between the two sides. One side is being attacked, and the other is the attacker who targets civilians and youngsters."
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Post #19,949
12/2/01 6:17:59 AM
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16 dead in Haifa suicide bus bombing
[link|http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/12/02/News/News.39159.html|16 dead in Haifa suicide bus bombing]
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Post #19,970
12/2/01 3:03:12 PM
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How did a bomb get on a buss?
Was it planted underneath?
Or perhaps a passer-by was loaded up?
Or, did they come on board? Perhaps jackets
should be banned on busses. Just have the
heater up.
________________
oop.ismad.com
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Post #20,013
12/2/01 10:48:38 PM
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It's called a suicide bomber
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Post #19,975
12/2/01 3:49:26 PM
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Yes, the death spiral continues.
Who would have thought there would be no consequences to assassinating a Hamas leader? Not that the SOB didn't deserve to die, mind you. Capture and public trial would have served Israel better. But of course, the current approach, other than the recent ratio of Palestinian/Israeli deaths, is more to Sharon's plan. "Keep it going until all the lands are ours".
There's a clue here for Bush's military tribunal as well.
Is it time to take out Arafat, Ariel?
Alex
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
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Post #19,980
12/2/01 4:54:24 PM
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I don't credit any of the simplistic extremes
as so often populate the threads here. This is *NOT* some black/white Evil/Good stupid fucking Boolean equation.. however well that works for balancing Corp spreadsheets and (doesn't work at all) for inventing the idiotic idea of 'IQ'. Hah.. DQ more like it: Dumbth Index.
There's obviously a symbiotic relationship developed over a half-century. It appears identical to the kind of madness we see *HERE* too - whenever someone rattles the %$#@$ Oil-$$$-WAR cage, and opens up the SPIN box and the flag/patriot/mycountry right-or-wrong mantra folder. Then our rhetoric matches all the above, with the exact same level of stimulus/response juvenile behavior. And always: the mindless fucking Slogans. Sooo much easier than original Thought. Sooo Popular in a mercantile culture, too. Already conditioned 24/7. Baa Baa
Screw ALL of the Sloganeers. We find a way to actually communicate or, the nukes [oil[ will [oil] fulfill their [oil] Promise. Maybe a lot sooner than...
Nobody expects.. the Spanish Inquisition.
Pshaw.
Ashton
never mind
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Post #19,992
12/2/01 7:40:31 PM
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one hamas=10 dead 130 wounded not prejuidiced are we?
The Israelis have asked the PA to arrest these mooks, the wont ant activly encourage these acts. Just keep it up until all the jews are dead then you will be happy.
thanx,
bill
tshirt front "born to die before I get old"
thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
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Post #20,006
12/2/01 9:41:05 PM
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Re: one hamas=10 dead 130 wounded not prejuidiced are we?
Nah, Box. It's not about relative value of lives. I'm just pointing out the Israeli complicity in keeping the death spiral going. If you watch the numbers over some time, it's about 4 to 5 dead Palestinians to one Israeli. At this point there more live Israelis than there are Palestinians (not all Arabs as a whole of course) so the trend is clear and if perpetuated has an obvious outcome. It looks like a plan being executed to me. To apply a recent Shimon Peres quote (actually regarding Arafat) to Israel, we need to judge "by deeds alone". Words are cheap. Just today on CNN, I saw what was left of a Palestinian town called Bethleham (around Manger Square), after the Israeli tanks moved out. Not pretty sight. I don't know how many of each got killed there, but I would not have placed any bets on the Palestinians. There is absolutely no chance for Just keep it up until all the jews are dead then you will be happy. I am saddened by the deaths of innocents on both sides. Alex
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
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Post #20,007
12/2/01 9:56:33 PM
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the ratio of PAL to JEWS is 10 to 1 in the immediate area
just a matter of time until there is no more jews, just ask the mainstream palestinian press. The Palestinians just asked the UN to force israel to hand over Jerusalem. It is a matter of time, they wish to kill every last Jew. Dont believe me? Just read their mainstream press.
thanx,
bill
tshirt front "born to die before I get old"
thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
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Post #20,037
12/3/01 2:51:01 AM
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Very simple question for you
Are there any circumstances that justify the mass murder of 25 innocent people (the majority teeanagers) by delibarately exploding bombs on buses and in cafes?
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Post #20,049
12/3/01 4:17:00 AM
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Re: Very simple answer
No - not ever
It seems a bit bizzare, but I get the impression that many people equate the total killed on each side but ignore the circumstances. I see a very big difference bewteen cynically provoked deaths (sending kids with rocks to shield snipers) Vs in the case of terror bombers how they slaughter people who are merely going about their daily lives who are not seeking, or expecting they are in, danger
In the case of the Palestinian deaths
1) Kids & youth are urged to go throw rocks at Israeli soldiers while snipers hide in the background to shoot at the soldiers
2) Israel specifically targets identified terrorist leaders whoose names have been made clear to PA but who are still at large
The rock throwing is a very cynical tactic designed to set fellow muslims on the boil and provoke hatred of Jews & anyone associated with them. Arafat seems to think the tactic works. By OBL's own words he agrees.
Doug M
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Post #20,055
12/3/01 5:27:35 AM
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The media in the West contribute greatly to this perception
The media (NY Times, CNN, etc.) constantly equate the deaths of innocent Israeli civilians with Palestinian "Gunmen". Here is one of many examples. The NY Times on 9/8 (I wrote them a letter about this headline which they of course did not print)ran a headline "Two Israelis, One Palestinian Killed in New Violence", from that headline you would think that the casualties were comparable. However, the 2 Israelis killed were 2 unarmed female teachers on their way to school. The Palestinian killed was armed and on a mission to strike inside Israel. Are these equatable? Is this an appropriate headline? A more appropriate headline would be "2 Israeli Teachers Killed on the way to school; Israel kills Palestinian terrorist on a mission to strike Israel"
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Post #20,146
12/3/01 8:24:34 PM
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No. Never 25 innocent people.
Now lets hear about the "collateral damage" of Israeli tank blitzkriegs. Those are of course justified. There apparently are no innocent Palestinians.
Alex
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
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Post #20,177
12/4/01 3:34:29 AM
12/4/01 3:37:10 AM
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Very big difference
In every war civilians get killed. What distinguishes countries like the US and Israel from terrorists is the fact that a terrorists goal is to kill innocent civilians while Israel and the US try to prevent innocent civilians from being killed. If Israel was as bad and brutal as you beliebe, in 14 months of fighting we should be seeing tens of thousands Palestinians killed. Yet, in reality the numbers are very low and most of the killed are armed Palestinians engaged in a a war or terrorism against Israel.
Another very important to make is the one that dmarker made:
"I see a very big difference bewteen cynically provoked deaths (sending kids with rocks to shield snipers) Vs in the case of terror bombers how they slaughter people who are merely going about their daily lives who are not seeking, or expecting they are in, danger
In the case of the Palestinian deaths
1) Kids & youth are urged to go throw rocks at Israeli soldiers while snipers hide in the background to shoot at the soldiers
2) Israel specifically targets identified terrorist leaders whoose names have been made clear to PA but who are still at large
The rock throwing is a very cynical tactic designed to set fellow muslims on the boil and provoke hatred of Jews & anyone associated with them. Arafat seems to think the tactic works. By OBL's own words he agrees."
Edited by bluke
Dec. 4, 2001, 03:37:10 AM EST
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Post #20,137
12/3/01 7:01:18 PM
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how do you discuss this?
[link|http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/12/03/LatestNews/LatestNews.39279.html|earl]
Abu Marzouk, a former US resident who was deported in 1997 on
terrorism charges, said Hamas regarded Israel's existence as "illegal."
thanx,
bill
tshirt front "born to die before I get old"
thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
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Post #20,149
12/3/01 8:55:13 PM
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Re: how do you discuss this?
Hamas has always been a problem. Hamas was once a fringe group and could have been marginalized into virtual extinction. Now, courtesy of Netanyahu and Sharon, they are more in control of Palestinians than Arafat.
Fundamentally, Hamas is not different from the Israelis, as exemplified by the "settlers", in their aims to exterminate the other guy and take his land. Only the tactics are different. One does seem to lack a regular army, tanks, helicopter gunships, F16s, etc.
Things are just getting worse. Look for the "final solution" for the Palestinian problem. Brought to you by the people that should know better.
Alex
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
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Post #20,178
12/4/01 4:03:55 AM
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You spout such propaganda
No one is Israel has ever said that there goal is to exterminate the Palestinians (something that cannot be said for the Arabs up until this day. Has Israel exterminated the Arabs citizens who live in it's midst? In fact, the Arab citizens of Israel have more rights in Israel then in ANY other Arab country. There are 10 Arab MP's in the Knesset. There were almost a million Jews living in Arab countries in 1948, how many are left? A few thousand and they are opressed and would love to leave.
Those on the right in Israel believe the following (obviously not everyone will agree with every point):
1. Jordan is the Palestinian state, as in 1922 the British took 80% of the Palestine mandate and made it into an Arab state
2. The Arabs have still not accepted the reality of Israel. Even a "moderate" like Faisal Husseini admitted that a Palestinian state on the West Bank and Gaza is just a first step toward the liberation of all of Palestine
3. Look at a map of the Middle East. Israel is but a speck among the 22 Arab countries
4. Jerusalem is the holiest city in Judaism, Jews have prayed to return to Jerusalem for 2000 years, Jerusalem has never been an important Moslem city except when anotheer religion has it (see here for details [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=18739|Moslem connection to Jerusalem?] )
5. UN Resolution 242 (as agreed to by all those involved in the drafting of the resolution) NEVER said that Israel needs to withdraw to the 1967 lines, rather withdrawl from territories
6a. The "right of return" that the Palestinians are calling for is a code word for Israel's destruction
6b. Every other refugee problem in the 20th century has been settled by resettlement, the best example being India and Pakistan.
7. East Jerusalem, Hebron ,Shechem (Nablus) are not traditionally Arab cities. These are places where Jews have a long and deep historical connection
Based on the above the overwhelming majority of Israelis including those on the right and the settlers are willing to compromise and establish a de-mmilitarized Palestinian state on much of the territory as Sharon himself has stated. However , this will not include Jerusalem nor the right of return for the reasons stated above.
One last question, why should it be "Land for Peace", why not "Peace for Peace"? Israel is being forced to give up tangible assets for promises. Since 1993, Israel withdraw from Gaza and part of the West Bank, as of the summer 2000 99% of Palestinians were under PA rule. What did Israel get in return?
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Post #20,181
12/4/01 7:23:36 AM
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Re: You spout such propaganda
3. Look at a map of the Middle East. Israel is but a speck among the 22 Arab countries
Er, dude, isn't that some kind of clue?
Peter
Shill For Hire
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
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Post #20,182
12/4/01 7:51:06 AM
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point missed?
tshirt front "born to die before I get old"
thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
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Post #20,185
12/4/01 8:21:11 AM
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What kind of clue?
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Post #20,184
12/4/01 8:05:59 AM
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"No one is Israel has ever said ..."
To quote Peres, judge by "deeds alone".
Alex
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
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Post #20,186
12/4/01 8:30:27 AM
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Deeds
Israel pulled out of Gaza parts of the West Bank, Hebron, etc. in short Israel fulfilled its obligations under the Oslo agreements. Note, the Oslo agreements did NOT prohibit the establishment of new settlements. As I pointed out to you, in the summer of 2000, 99% of Palestinians were living in either Area A (full PA control) or Area B (PA civil control). Those are deeds. Israeli Arabs have full rights under Israel, there are 10 Arab Knesset members. Israeli Arabs are probably freer then any other Arabs in the Middle East. In the summer of 2000 at Camp David, Barak offered Arafat, 90%+ of the territory, a compromise on Jerusalem, etc. those are deeds. Arafat on the other hand was also supposed to carry out deeds, such as, arresting terrorists, stopping incitement, confiscating illegal weapons. He has done none of these. In fact, he has done the reverse. In Arabic, he has continued the incitement, he praised the Sbarro bomber as a martyr. His own Fatah group has taken responsibility for many terrorist attacks.
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Post #20,195
12/4/01 11:38:49 AM
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Re: Deeds
I am not defending or absolving all Arafat deeds. I'm not keeping track of them.
Israeli pull outs out of Gaza and parts West Bank mean nothing when Israel invades those territories at will.
The Oslo agreements not prohibiting settlements is not a permission to expand them. The Oslo agreements probably did not prohibit the rape of Palestinian women either. The reaction from Palestinians to either act is about the same, and you know it. And, furthermore, don't care.
One of the Arab Knesset members was recently arrested for what he said, was he not? That's freedom of speech?
One could also ask if Israel is civilized country or the land of the Jewish Taliban. My son, an engineer, was in Israel on a business trip a few years ago and stayed in a Haifa hotel. He and his co-workers were at an Arab owned restaurant finishing their beers after a meal. Just before 6 PM, the owner put out the Closed sign and locked the door. He then he apologized that he would have to turn off the lights but that his guest need not hurry the beers. Within minutes, a guy with a black hat (no, not a Taliban turban, but a hat Hasidic Jews wear) was pounding his fist on the door. In a heated tone he insisted the quest leave immediately or he would call the police. The owner apologetically then asked his guests to leave.
Same trip, but a breakfast in the hotel. The visiting wife of one of the co-workers (it was a several weeklong business trip) brought a sausage to the breakfast table. No meat was being served, so she thought it would a nice idea and started to slice it up for the group. A horrified Palestinian waiter came running to the table. They were to swallow what was in their mouths and quickly hide the rest. He said, if the sausage was seen by the wrong person, every Palestinian in the restaurant would be fired and the restaurant closed up. Even the hotel would be closed for some time. Apparently, Kosher dietary practices are law and to be followed by all. This is called freedom of religion and Israel a democracy. Looks like the Taliban to me.
Not having been circumcised, I would never visit Israel. :)
Yeh, I know, if you don't like it, don't come. And if you've come, leave.
Alex
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
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Post #20,196
12/4/01 12:19:48 PM
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Warped view of Israel
You pick a misunderstood story and make ridiculous generalizations. Let us look at the cases that you mention.
The hotel in Haifa was probably kosher. One of the things that means is that you can't eat meat and milk at the same meal. Therefore, the sausage at breakfast violated those religious. If those laws are violated the hotel could lose it's kosher certification. The hotel does not want that to happen and therefore what happened happened. However, the hotel, or any other restaurant has no obligation to be kosher, the hotel VOLUNTARILY agreed to be kosher and therefore needs to follow the rules. I bet the same thing would happen in the US in a vegetarian restaurant or kosher restaurant. It is certainly not the law of land to be kosher. To my dismay, many of the restaurants in the area where I work are NOT kosher.
The Knesset member is under investigation for treason. He went to Syria (a nation technically at war with Israel) and made statements supporting armed conflict against Israel. Last time I looked at my US passport, it said that it was not valid for travel to N. Korea and I believe a person could be prosecuted for that. Similarly, if a US Congressman got up traveled to Afghanistan, met with Bin Laden, and made public statements stating that Bin Laden should continue to carry out his attacks on the US what do you think would happen to him? The fact is that Israel has given the Arab Knesset members tremendous latitude in what they say.
It is unbelievable what a warped attitude of Israel that you have.
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Post #20,251
12/4/01 5:35:17 PM
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Re: Warped view of Israel
We'll see how the American Taliban gets treated. He actually had been armed and presumably fired on the Northern Alliance "troops" and possibly Americans as well. Jane Fonda was never jailed for her Hanoi speech. She did antagonize some people, and some do not forgive her to this day. And, you did not say anything about the Hasidic "Sabbath enforcer" and customers having to leave a closed, darkened, restaurant at 6 PM on a Friday or else. And speaking of warped views, I was amused how both you and Boxer could not see the point of Peter's remark. The point is that perhaps Israel does not belong where it is and Israelis should consider your point 6b: Every other refugee problem in the 20th century has been settled by resettlement, the best example being India and Pakistan. Of course you insist for others what you would decline for yourself, i.e. move somewhere else (or die with our help). And incidentally, India has over 100 million Muslim citizens and is a secular democracy. Not that they don't have some medieval traditions. Alex
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
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Post #20,253
12/4/01 5:46:55 PM
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Good Idea! I say: give em Utah.__Save Us / Save Them. QED
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Post #20,257
12/4/01 5:58:19 PM
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It works for me, Ash.
But they'll want California.
Alex
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
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Post #20,291
12/5/01 3:29:17 AM
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More answers for you
I can't speak to the specifics of the restaurant case. I can say in general, that some restaurants are open on the Sabbath, again a restaurant that wants to be certified kosher can not be.
These points just show how anti-Israel you are. You take one story and then claim Israel is like the Taliban without having teh slightest idea of what you are talking about.
Your point about India and refugees is wrong as usual:
1. Many Jews did move, namely from the Arab countries where they had lived for hundreds of years to Israel
2. Where would you like the Jews to go to? The "Palestinians" can go to Jordan, Egypt, etc. they speak the same language, have the same culture, etc. Yasir Arafat was born in Cairo, Faisal Husseini in Iraq
3. At least 20 million refugees were resettled in India or Pakistan. Israel as well has a significant Arab minority
4. The Arabs are the ones who left in 1948 because their leaders promised them that they would throw the Jews into the sea and then they would return
One last point about religion and the state, last I checked, Christmas was a federal, state and local holiday in the US, no Jewish, Muslim, etc. holiday has the same status. What does that say about the US?
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Post #20,341
12/5/01 12:55:31 PM
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Re: More answers for you
The point of bringing up the story is that to a visitor Israel appears to be run by something equivalent of the Taliban. Perhaps we can call it oppression by a religious majority. And, that's something I fear in the US as well.
My point about India you have chosen to misunderstand. In terms of population, India is the second largest Muslim country. A secular democracy with Muslims is possible. I'll grant you that the many who passionately did not want to be in a minority resettled during the partition of India and Pakistan. Kashmir is the legacy of partition approaches. You would choose not to learn from that conflict.
Personally, I don't care where someone was born. Save that for someone else. I was born in Eastern Europe, a WW-II refuge, and am a naturalized American. One swears to defend the US and the Constitution of the US to become a citizen something natural citizens do only if they join the military. If called, I would serve with no hesitation. This is my country and I have no divided loyalties. While admitting faults and misdeeds of the US, I am proud to be an American.
As far as the Arab minority in Israel goes, I understand them to be treated, at best, as second class citizens. I bet, in your whole life, unsolicited (if then), you ever once smiled and said "Good Morning!" to an Arab Israeli. Tell me I'm wrong, please.
Agreed that there are Arabs that want to reclaim Israel. That's a dead cause and it won't happen. You do have to resolve the "right of return" issue with these. Maybe buy them off somehow. Now, tell me there no Israelis that want to reclaim all the Biblical Israeli lands. In my view, both these groups come from the same mold.
Christmas Day in the US is more of a commercial holiday. It is not overly coercive to have a day off. But, it would please me if it were replaced by a floating personal choice day off. Taking a day off for a Jewish holiday has not been a problem to anyone I've known at school or work. In my experience, teachers in fact often did not start new material on such days.
Alex
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
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Post #20,296
12/5/01 5:48:36 AM
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Re: Warped view of Israel
Please read this article [link|http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-schwartz120401.shtml|An Old Story Anti-Semitism, past and present]
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Post #20,329
12/5/01 11:18:01 AM
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Re: Warped view of Israel
Martin Luther King's quote notwithstanding, I'm not impressed. It has some valid points but overall it is a biased one sided rationalization of Israeli behavior. To say others are worse or have been worse in their treatment of human beings does nor excuse anything. To be critical of Israel is not no be Anti-Semitic. The man practices what he accuses others of doing.
Words have become so much bullshit. Actions count. Yesterday, on CNN not exactly a pro-Palestinian network, we watched the Israeli F-16 doing their business on the Palestinians. Bombs falling, people panicking in the streets, children in school yards getting killed and maimed. The Palestinian Air Force was nowhere in sight - the cowardly bastards. Oh wait, Arafat's two helicopters, which appeared to be lacking machine guns and rocket launchers anyway, were destroyed the prior day. I'm sure you thought it was a wonderful show. Yeh, kill those motherfuckers. Yes, deeds alone count.
All nations should aspire to such exemplary behavior. But of course not your enemies, that would be Anti-Semitic.
Alex
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
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Post #20,354
12/5/01 2:00:43 PM
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Empty words by you as usual
Why don't you go through his points one by one and refute them if you can?
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Post #20,368
12/5/01 4:02:35 PM
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Re: Empty words by you as usual
Let's just say that it is well-plowed ground and there is not much point to go over it again. Perhaps more eloquently, he has said the same things you have been saying over and over the past many months. It's the same "hymn book", if you'll pardon the cross-cultural reference. Perhaps the MLKing quote was new.
You have obviously collected a lot of material that you cut and paste. I bet you have database schema for it. :) All the wrongs the US or anyone else has done to any one. These are the excuses to do the same or worse by Israel or at least reason for the rest of us to shut up and not criticize. All the wrongs done to Jews over the centuries as if that gives you license for retribution to the descendents of the perpetrators. All the anti Muslim evidence and how they are evil because your foes are mostly Muslim. All the historical references how there are no real Arab countries just creations of the British Empire or the West. A selected set of UN resolutions that support your goals. You even had arguments in the Religion forum about how Christianity was a sham. My God, (that's a joke son) you must be anti Arab, anti Muslim, and anti Christian bigot! :) Anyway, I find your position for the most part to be part of the problem and not part of any solution.
Having been a "tenant" in a Nazi concentration camp and up to age 5 being responsible for a 3 year old brother and an infant brother (who died) while my parents were working the fields on a German slave farm gives me a certain perspective on oppression. Cold and hunger are no strangers, either. From my parents experience, I learned about oppression in pre-WW-II Soviet Union. My point is, I know oppression when I see it and perhaps have an obligation to speak. You are on the wrong side of it. You appear to have no conception of what being oppressed is like. Perhaps you could say what it is like to be part of the master race.
Alex
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
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Post #20,447
12/6/01 2:59:56 AM
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And you have refuted none of it
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Post #20,336
12/5/01 11:49:33 AM
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I wasnt sure but your point is Jews do not belong there
without addressing where they might go where Jews and only Jews determine the fate of Jews. I also find you story of meat in a kosher restaurant and the black hatted hasid pounding on the door threatening to call the police very amusing. Same thing happened to me when I lit up a cigarette in a bar in california :)
thanx,
bill
tshirt front "born to die before I get old"
thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
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Post #20,343
12/5/01 12:59:32 PM
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Yes, a cigarette smoke Nazi! :)
Other than having your livelihood threatened.
Alex
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
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Post #20,408
12/5/01 8:22:58 PM
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so losing a liquor licence in CA
does not threaten your livelyhood? Apparently you cannot see the obvious similarities. OT making a run to TN on the 20th, you on the way to stop for a coffee? or 2 close to Orlando. Be riding the 75.
thanx,
bill
tshirt front "born to die before I get old"
thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
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Post #20,434
12/5/01 11:15:19 PM
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Re: so losing a liquor licence in CA
You're right, I did not know liquor license was involved.
I-75 does not go thru North Carolina, it's thru Georgia. East to West NC is about 500 miles wide and Charlotte is about the middle of that but near SC border. It's at the intersection of I-85 and I-77. I-40 runs East-West about 50 miles North of Charlotte.
If you were going on I-95 North from West Palm to I-26 North West (in SC) to I-77 North (from Columbia, SC) that would take you to Charlotte. After Charlotte, you would take I-77 North to I-40 (in Statesville, NC) and then West towards TN. Unless you do something like that, I'm not on the way. However, if you have the time and inclination to stop by anyway going North or on the way back home, I'd be happy to meet you. Heck, I'll buy lunch.
Look at a map and let me know.
Alex
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
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Post #20,453
12/6/01 8:22:10 AM
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going I75 to TN then 40 to Asheville, to the coast 95 south
want to go to dollywood for the xmas show, tootle over to asheville for xmas looking for a snowbank to roll in then slow drive home. If your in the area email me at WilliamOxley at netscape dot net with your whereabouts, will try to swing by.
thanx,
bill
tshirt front "born to die before I get old"
thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
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Post #20,468
12/6/01 10:12:13 AM
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Super! I have sent you email.
Looks like it must be a family fun trip and not job interview.
Alex
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
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Post #20,438
12/5/01 11:55:17 PM
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I-75
goes from detroit to florida, where are you joining up on it?
Believe it or not, there's a bloody book devoted to I-75. "Along Interstate 75: 10th annual edition", by Dave Hunter. Mile Oak Pub; ISBN: 1896819141
I pass I-75 every day on my way to work.
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
-- Donald Knuth
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Post #20,454
12/6/01 8:26:53 AM
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sofla to atlanta then over to Pigion Forge
tshirt front "born to die before I get old"
thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
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Post #20,528
12/6/01 5:40:48 PM
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LRPD: Do you, in fact, have any cheese here at all?_____:-\ufffd
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Post #20,349
12/5/01 1:37:54 PM
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On that "american"...
IIRC, isn't serving in a foreign military grounds for revocation of U.S. citizenship?
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Post #20,355
12/5/01 2:13:27 PM
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Heard a discussion of it
No, it isn't. There probably is some law he can be prosecuted for, in assisting terrorists or something like that, but unless you've actually become a citizen of a foreign government or formally revoke your citizenship yourself, it can't be taken from you.
(Naturalized citizens can be stripped of citizenship if it's shown they lied on their citizenship application, but that's not the case here.)
Fighting in a foreign army against our troops is treason, but I doubt we'll be able to prove it to the standards set by the U.S. constitution. You have to have two eyewitnesses to the treasonous act. If he has a good enough lawyer, and given the appearance of his father on television he's almost guaranteed a very slick lawyer, he claims he was over there just learning about the Taliban and happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time when captured and imprisoned.
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
-- Donald Knuth
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Post #20,179
12/4/01 4:10:21 AM
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Hamas is not a fringe group just like Al Queida is not
The Arab world has moved away from secular ideaologies and has moved towards Islamic fundamentalism recently. Look at Egypt, Saudia Arabia, Pakistan, Lebanon (Hizbullah), etc. Hamas is part of the same phenomenon.
Secondly, as everyone agrees, Arafat's PA is completely corrupt and violates human rights, this also pushes many people to Hamas.
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Post #20,436
12/5/01 11:40:24 PM
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Arafat under pressure from Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan
[link|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64538-2001Dec5.html|Here] from the Washington Post. RIYADH, Saudi Arabia, Dec. 5 \ufffd With violence escalating between Israel and the Palestinians, key Arab leaders have begun privately telling Yasser Arafat, the Palestinian leader, to do more to curb militant groups in order to preserve the possibility of a return to peace talks and avoid international isolation, Arab and Western officials said today.
In a potentially important rhetorical shift, the leaders of Jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia, three moderate Arab states whose involvement is key to Palestinian-Israeli negotiations, have avoided any direct criticism of Israeli helicopter and fighter plane strikes launched in retaliation for a series of suicide bombings by Palestinians over the weekend.
[...]
"They are telling him roughly the same thing [U.S. Secretary of State] Colin Powell is telling him," the Western official said of the message to Arafat. "The [Arab] leaders are frightened. They hate [Israeli Prime Minister Ariel] Sharon, but Arafat is not without culpability, and they know that you can't pull out the old playbook anymore."
A top member of the Saudi royal family expressed what may be a growing frustration with both sides in the conflict. "It has gone beyond blaming and it is time to stop," Prince Turki al-Faisal, the former Saudi intelligence minister, said in an interview this week. "When you see pictures of body parts spread all over the place \ufffd it makes you sick. Who the hell is Sharon or Arafat to cause their people this suffering?"
[...]
After the attacks in Jerusalem and Haifa, Mohammed Sayed Tantawi, head of Al-Azhar University in Cairo, was quoted in the Egyptian press as saying that Islam "rejects all attempts on human life, and in the name of sharia [Islamic law] we condemn all attacks on civilians, whatever the community or state responsible for such an attack."
Similar comments were issued by a ranking Saudi scholar, Muhammad ibn Abdullah Al-Subail, a member of the country's senior council of clerics and an imam at the Grand Mosque in Mecca. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #20,440
12/6/01 12:07:49 AM
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One can only hope it has some effect.
But there is evidence that Arafat is having less and less control over radical palistinian groups. It is doubtful Arafat himself would direct or even condone this week's suicide bombings, but it's equally doubtful he can have much an influence over hate groups doing these things.
He's in a no-win situation. He's promoted anti-Jew propaganda for the past (what?) twenty, thirty years? Now he is supposed to reverse the racism and hatred built up over the past few years? Mmmm-hmmm. right.
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
-- Donald Knuth
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Post #20,583
12/6/01 9:21:24 PM
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Been having an effect for some time
ameliorated (!) by one of the principal laws of human relations: "As ye sow, so shall ye reap."
The Arab countries have been sowing the wind for half a century. In the confident knowledge that the United States at least wanted to be seen as a nice guy, and would restrain the Israelis if they got too bloody, they've seen a clear field for aggrandizing themselves, and justifying their rule, by pointing to the United States, and the West in general, as the bad guys stealing the peoples' livelihoods.
Now, as the burgeoning crop of whirl-winds emerges from the fertile soil, they're all looking for shelter. One of the byproducts of Osama bin Laden, al Qaida, and the WTC terrorism is that the United States has decided that it will never be seen as the nice guy. That being the case, a whole set of tactics that were heretofore foreclosed by public opinion are now open -- and the greatest of these is: ::shrug:: what's a Palestinian?
Another byproduct is Hamas, which grew in Southern Lebanon and now makes its home in Palestine, and is almost entirely the result of Israeli restraint at U.S. urging. [It could have been destroyed in the early days, but it would have been ugly -- approaching genocidal -- and that wasn't allowed.] Hamas is totally, bitterly opposed to allowing any Jew to survive, let alone the State of Israel -- and thanks to fifty years of propaganda, they've got the bodies. It's almost possible to feel pity for Arafat. If he makes peace with the Israelis, especially Sharon, Hamas will kill him in a heartbeat. If he doesn't make peace with the Israelis, the IDF will take him out in roughly the same period of time.
I said "almost possible". At this point, it's getting harder and harder from where I sit to feel much sympathy for either side, although by me Israel still gets a good bit of credit. As for Arafat, he made his own bed -- although to be sure he had plenty of assistance from Syria, Iraq, the Saudis, and Egypt (more or less in that order).
Regards,
Ric
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Post #20,590
12/6/01 10:17:27 PM
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Not a bad summary
fer a Texan without a motorcycle \ufffd
Matters have probably gone too far (and our particular forays du jour gone too serendipitously - as NoOne could have predicted just weeks ago..) for us to even play much at bein Mr. NiceGuy - Hey! wanna buy our stuff? Huh? Huh?
I don't know (either) how you de-program thousands (?) of wannabe ex-virgins enroute ---> to an only slightly less-absurd Reward than er Xian Heaven-with-harps. (And our own theological nostruns intermixed with Govt. - demonstrate that we can't even de-program ourselves.)
Maybe.. just maybe the sight of heaped dead burnt bodies in wholesale lots, will deliver such a conscious shock (can't be no steenkin Martyr.. if'n They gets You! afore You gets Yerself! - no?) -- that there will be some er widespread epiphanies amongst the holy sheep.
Maybe.. but it'll be the First time IMho. People are fond of dyin for shibboleths and fantasies; especially when they're livin amidst trash and Puritan-variant secret police already. What's to lose, if'n ya never Had.. a good day since you were weaned?
Muricans know *nothing* of how the rest of the world actually lives day-day - and care less. And certainly aren't seriously into sharing. (except platitudes about Workin Hard\ufffd and you too.. can be the 1% fat local cat)
Then there's Arbeit Macht Frei to kick around - try that one on permanent inmates of the Jordanian/Syrian Resettlement Camps?
It's gonna be an interestin Crap Shoot, methinks.
Ashton
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Post #20,597
12/6/01 11:36:48 PM
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Deprogramming.
You must have missed the 60 Minutes follow-up piece of a "peace camp" for Israeli and Palestinian teenagers in Vermont or New Hampshire. Lot's of heated accusatory exchanges between the kids at the beginning. By the end of the program, they understood although not accepted each others point of view. Each saw the humanity of the other and could cooperate on mixed teams and share victories in the various competitions. Hugging each other no less. In the follow-up interviews after a couple of years of all being at home, it was back to square one. Each thought the other side was inhumane and of whom no one could be trusted.
Deprogramming is required for both!
It's a pity you don't see the symmetry.
Alex
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
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Post #20,612
12/7/01 3:47:25 AM
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I guess you missed
I don't know (either) how you de-program thousands (?) of wannabe
ex-virgins enroute ---> to an only slightly less-absurd Reward than er
Xian Heaven-with-harps. (And our own theological nostruns
intermixed with Govt. - demonstrate that we can't even de-program
ourselves.) At least, I have an ideal of details of the local programming - mostly hearsay (and some first-hand) re the overseas variant. I see no 'solution' to any of the variants - until sufficient maturity occurs, that folk all over: stop attributing their fav personal characteristics to.. the Mystery that existence is. The personal/customized-God stuff is a festering boil on the ass of humanity, and guarantees replay of all this stupid stuff. Indefinitely. All the rest is: bandaids and BS, spun to a new tune periodically (and always - sanctimoniously). A.
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Post #20,642
12/7/01 11:06:44 AM
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So, we should focus only on the guys that push the button
to blow themselves up in populated places and ignore the IDF guys who taunt and then pick off kids with rocks? I choose to look at both.
Do not look behind the curtain, there is no relation between such events.
It's all about hatred, my friend. And it's intense and it's on both sides.
Alex
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
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Post #20,673
12/7/01 3:10:54 PM
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Not implicit in what I said.
Rock-throwing is illegal about everywhere - how you stop individual events is part of the local laws. There are non-lethal approaches, apparently rarely employed. (Why do cops everywhere run First to projectile weapons? Habit. Slothful thought. Testosterone.)
I prefer *radical surgery to pharm-chem happy pills. The root of the problem is ~ the child abuse of inculcating wildly asocial principles in tiny minds; then keeping those minds tiny via Draconian 10th century superstition. ie and even simpler, always and Everywhere -
Ignorance Kills. Intentionally brainwashing malleable minds IS a Crime - we just lack the subtlety to uncover any means of enforcing sanctions against such kinds of Crimes. (Will leave Language-murder for another thread).
* as in radix==root-cause.
We use force so often because:
A) as a species we are mentally lazy, mostly.
B) Men (indeed) 'Love War'. Genetic cock-up (pun intended)
C) It's EZiest! - for those who ever choose the instant result - as in: bizness' first-quarter results mindset: ~ the way we run the world.
D) Add your fav other homo-sap stupidity here ____
A.
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Post #20,606
12/7/01 2:10:30 AM
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I still like Pournelle's solution
Whereever there were celebrations at the World Trade Center bombings, tell the occupants: you have two hours to move.
Then bulldoze the area. Make it flatter than a pancake. Salt the earth so nothing will ever grow there again. Construct a monument (visible from orbit) to the victims of the WTC bombing.
Doesn't matter if it is Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia - if we have to smash the armies of a dozen Arab countries while we do it, so be it. None of this limp-wristed coalition building. By the end of it, none of the Arab countries will be our friend, but then they never really were anyway. They will be afraid, very afraid, of us. That will suffice.
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
-- Donald Knuth
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