Legalistic gooblygook at its finest.

Post #18,762 by a6l6e6x 11/19/01 11:08:41 AM Reply	Legalistic gooblygook at its finest. I would grant you the Israel as established in 1948. All else, belongs to someone else, be that Jordan, Egypt, the man on the moon, or a new Palestinian state. Jews that legitimately acquired property or otherwise live in what you wish to call "disputed" territory do not live in Israel but in this other state. They can be citizens of that other state or legal residents of that state. And, don't give me the "defensible borders" bullshit. If the Palestinians (not that they have a single voice) don't cede you any territories, you can't have it under any pretext. Certainly not by picking and choosing which UN resolutions to accept and which to reject and how to interpret the resolutions you wish to accept. And certainly not by simple conquest. The current Israeli policy seems to be -- "what's mine is mine, what's yours is ours, until we kill you off". Not a prescription for peace, ever! Unless you have in mind killing off all Muslims that might care about the issue. Or, as you are trying very hard to do, to convince someone else to do some of that for you. It is obvious to me that Israel by its actions, the "settlements" in particular, wants to perpetuate a war so it can gain territory. With the much superior military power, the lives lost to lives taken proportion is apparently totally acceptable. Your own flavor of the Taliban deems it so. That's how I see it from here. Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #18,778 by bluke 11/19/01 11:50:15 AM Reply	Based on what does all else belong to someone else Why should Egypt or Jordan have more of a claim on the West Bank then Israel? As I showed many times, the UN resolutions state that Israel should withdraw from "territories" NOT all the territories to "secure and recognized borders". The borders of 1948 were not secure and recognized and therefore can not be the basis of any settlement. One final question. The Arabs received 99.6% of all the land in the Middle East. Jordan received 80% of the original Palestine mandate, Isreal wants a little peice of that, so tell me who is grabbing land?
Post #18,789 by CRConrad 11/19/01 12:31:29 PM Reply	Same old same old BS from BS-Luke BS-Looke spouts some more typical Looke-BS: Why should Egypt or Jordan have more of a claim on the West Bank then Israel? How about you try to learn to read what's written, right in front of your nose? He SPECIFICALLY SAID, it's not about "who has a claim"; all we know, is that legally, Israel doesn't have one. Sheesh... As I showed many times, the UN resolutions state that Israel should withdraw from "territories" NOT all the territories to "secure and recognized borders". The borders of 1948 were not secure and recognized and therefore can not be the basis of any settlement. Pick and choose, pick and choose... The whole fucking existence of the state of Israel depends on that original UN resolution. And you think you can start dickering with that?!? (A few nicely prejudicial cheap shots come to mind...) Lissen, bubbele, if that resolution can be fucked with in one way, then it could quite concievably be messed with in other ways, too... You really sure you wanna go down THAT particular road? Naah... If the existence of the state of Israel is so fucking holy to you, then you fucking better take the whole of the resolution as Gospel. Either-or, no fucking raisin-picking! So the legitimate borders of Israel are those of the original resolution that created it; anything you've taken since then is a land-grab. (That's what "grab" means, "to take" -- look it up in a fucking encyclopedia...) One final question. The Arabs received 99.6% of all the land in the Middle East. You keep bandying that number about. Two questions arise, at least one but probably both of which have been asked before but never answered by you: 1) Where do you get them from? Show me some hard acreage numbers, square-miles or square-kilometres per country "in the Middle East". (That's where I suspect you get such an impressively tiny number, by dicking around with the definition of "Middle East". Does yours include China, or only India, Afghanistan, and Mongolia...?) A) So fucking WHAT?!? Some countries are bigger; others, smaller -- that's just the way it is. Should the Dutch be seen as "justified" to start killing of the Russians, just because the Dutch don't have as much fucking Lebensraum as the Russians do? Jordan received 80% of the original Palestine mandate, Isreal wants a little peice of that, so tell me who is grabbing land? Israel, of course. The fucking DEFINITION of "grabbing" is "to take something", i.e, it's about something you didn't have to begin with. Did Israel have those territories from its creation? No. So it must have TAKEN them. Q. E fucking D, beatable by straight-forward logic a third-grader could handle. Sheesh, is this the level of arguing all those Talmud schools are so renowned for??? Yeshiva, thine reputation seems to be a little overblown... Bryce, meet Blook. Blook, Bryce. Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #18,914 by Ashton 11/20/01 2:33:37 AM Reply	So then - take back the artificial creation of 'Saud'i 'Arabia' too? Pretty recent that. As arbitrary as with the Sudeten and other territorial disputes post-[this war or that]. We could then go on to the 'Gypsies' or Romani: [link\|http://dmoz.org/Society/Ethnicity/Romani/Holocaust/\|Seconds?] If.. in 20/01 hindsight the fairwitness decides that it was an error to 'reward' with a place to call 'home' - the miserable Jews for their execrable behavior, their abetting the crimes of their Nazi scapegoaters: by going too docilely through those Zyklon-B dispensing Brausebad doors into oblivion: (The wimps - we Know what We! would have done when the Geheime Staats Polizei came for Us, to resettle the family in those charming country camps in the film - Don't We? We'd have fought those jack-booted Party thugs with knives and forks. Fersure.. let little Sasha take her chances during the melee.) Well then, pick the Romani as new landlords, perhaps? And as always (given the absence still, of anything like a World Government) - why should not Any decision of any era or time: be questioned? Interminably, of course. No comment re ~ how I [as a Jew] might have superbly handled the daily fact of the surrounding territories to 'mine' (unless taken back by a fairwitness at any time?): that my neighbors have a concerted aim to evict me and all others - with extreme prejudice 24/7. I will not try to make the case that I would deal with this situation in some Christlike manner (since he wouldn't be my messiah then, either). After all, I'm not a fairwitness. Either. And my present country of occupancy - is dealing with a One-Day dose of terrorist bombing.. with such extreme moderation. Why just look at the gamut of measured responses - so far. Ashton With the Wisdom of Solomon I decree for the contending Mothers: Cut the babe in two. Next case. *For every human problem, there is a neat, simple solution; and it is always wrong* H. L. Mencken, Mencken's Metalaw (courtesy Silverlock)
Post #18,918 by bluke 11/20/01 3:33:50 AM Reply	Same old lack of historical knowledge from you No one is "dickering" with the original resolution. Teh fact is that the Arabs REJECTED the original resolution. In 1967 the Security Council passed ANOTHER resolution (242), which stated that Israel should withdraw from "territories" not all the territories (read any account of the those sessions) to secure and recognized borders. Again, the borders of 1948 were cease fire lines not secure and recognized borders in fact they are completely different then the original UN resolution of 1947, therefore it was always clear that those borders were not permanent, what is so hard to understand. You write: "Did Israel have those territories from its creation? No. So it must have TAKEN them. " By the same token we can say did the US have the Southwest from its creating, No, so it must have taken them. Did Jordan have the West Bank when it was created? No. Did you or anyone else complain in 1948 that they TOOK the land. Let's take 1 example in Europe: Should France return Alsace-Lorraine, gained in 1945, Further, France should agree to the return and rehabilitation of all ethnic Germans expelled from Alsace-Lorraine after World Wars I and II, as well as all those they define as their descendants. This, of course, is just the first step toward a solution, as no aggression can be rewarded - and France has much other stolen territory to return. It took Corsica from Genoa, Nice and Savoy from Piedmont. As the successor state, Italy must get back all these lands. By similar token, territories grabbed from the Habsburgs go back to Austria, including Franche-Comt, Artois, and historic Burgundy. Just look at a any map of the region, see if you can even find Israel on the map, the name Israel is bigger then the country.
Post #18,916 by bluke 11/20/01 3:16:02 AM Reply	Amazing You must really hate Israel, give the West Bank to anyone BUT Israel. What connection does Egypt or Jordan have with the West Bank?
Post #18,989 by a6l6e6x 11/20/01 2:30:32 PM Reply	Re: Amazing No, not hating Israel. It has so many decent and fair minded people that have been mostly silenced lately. Perhaps hating what the current, and for that matter prior, government of it has and is doing with regards to the "settlements". It is a provocation of the worst kind. If you (collectively) do not see it as a provocation, you do not understand human nature. Apparently nothing has been learned from the Warsaw ghetto during World War II. Brutal oppression and occupation mean nothing to you. "Never Again!" apparently only means "Never Again to Us!". You are rubbing salt in to open wounds and are creating those Palestinian "martyrs" who being otherwise powerless against Israeli brutal military power have nothing to lose. I simply find it impossible to believe that you do not understand what you are doing. There is a larger agenda in play and justice or peace with your neighbors are not a part of it at present. First, you've got to get that Israeli percentage of the Middle East land mass, that you often talk about, up. Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)

Welcome to IWETHEY!