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New I see nothing wrong with that posistion
Justification comes AFTER motivation.

People can (and do) use ANY 'cause', ANY ideology the same way.
It's not the religion.
It's the people.

I see nothing wrong with that posistion as long as you apply it consistantly. If nothing bad can be attributed to religion because the people where that way anyway, then nothing good can be attributed to religion either. Religion becomes nothing more then a set of empty gestures you go through once a week because you don't like sleeping in Sunday.

As far as I can tell the truth is much more complex. Not all people that say they are motivated by religion really are. Some are simply telling the tale they need to get people to go along, others have picked or created a religion based on it approving what they where going to do anyway.

But not all of them, some of them really do have faith. No matter how wrong you might think their beliefs, they are doing what they think is right. Nor is all the good done in the name of religion motivated by religion, many people working at religious charities would still be doing charitable work if the religion did not exist.

In many cases it is even more complex then that. People motivations and beliefs do change over time. Many preachers seem to wander between really believing in themselves and faking it. In other cases people join a church because it is convenient, only to find themselves caught up in the church's posistion, for good or evil.

Religion can be a motivation for good or evil, but people tend to attribute either to much or to little. In general religion is neither the primary motivator nor is it negligable. For any specific person, you must consider the deapth of their faith to see if it is true or not.

Jay
New *smile*

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
     Heartbreaking - (tuberculosis) - (113)
         I'm confused...--- here's the story - (Nightowl) - (1)
             Alana is a fairly common name. -NT - (mmoffitt)
         A thousand years in prison... - (pwhysall) - (109)
             I have that sense as well. - (mmoffitt) - (106)
                 It's not about religion - (imric) - (105)
                     But religion bars any reason. - (mmoffitt) - (104)
                         Could substitute "politics" for "religion" there. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                             Or anything else - (Nightowl)
                         "getting the lunatic to abandon what he holds most dear" - (imric) - (35)
                             Any? Perhaps. - (mmoffitt) - (34)
                                 Re: Any? Perhaps. - (Nightowl) - (9)
                                     If a Christian does not believe anyone should be condemned.. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                         There's a difference - (Nightowl)
                                     Uhhh, Owlsley... - (jb4) - (6)
                                         Let me clarify - (Nightowl) - (5)
                                             Re: Let me clarify - (jb4) - (3)
                                                 Not forgetting... - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                                     How could I forget...! - (jb4)
                                                 Unfortunately (new thread) - (Nightowl)
                                             On Christian churches... (new thread) - (Another Scott)
                                 You sure? - (imric) - (23)
                                     Very well stated - (Nightowl)
                                     I am condemning that which nurtures... - (mmoffitt) - (21)
                                         "History is on my side" - (imric) - (18)
                                             Alexander of Macedonia, - (Arkadiy)
                                             Religion is not the only motivation for slaughter. - (a6l6e6x) - (2)
                                                 And, of course - (imric)
                                                 The "chosen people" do have many more - (Arkadiy)
                                             "You Have to be Carefully Taught - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                 For Those Too Lazy To Google - (pwhysall)
                                             See Jesus 'quote' in this thread re:The Civil War. - (mmoffitt) - (11)
                                                 See my first post, re justification. - (imric) - (10)
                                                     Well yes - that's 'true' - (Ashton) - (7)
                                                         Believe it or not, I understand and somewhat agree - (imric) - (6)
                                                             'Religion' oft has little or zippo to do with 'spirituality' - (Ashton) - (5)
                                                                 Uh huh. - (imric) - (4)
                                                                     A little more explanation please? - (Nightowl) - (2)
                                                                         With Ash, it can be sometimes hard, - (imric) - (1)
                                                                             Trust me, I know that - (Nightowl)
                                                                     Heh.. I 'splain how ya can end war n'stuff (new thread) - (Ashton)
                                                     I see nothing wrong with that posistion - (JayMehaffey) - (1)
                                                         *smile* -NT - (imric)
                                         Well, I consider that... - (Nightowl) - (1)
                                             You'd be wrong - (jake123)
                         The base of religion is faith - (Simon_Jester) - (65)
                             Counter-example to your last. - (mmoffitt) - (63)
                                 Huh? No way! - (Nightowl)
                                 What you just said is a sin - (Arkadiy) - (57)
                                     Just read the texts, man. - (mmoffitt) - (56)
                                         The Lord - (Arkadiy) - (55)
                                             Exactly - (Nightowl)
                                             The [owner] thing wasn't mine. - (mmoffitt) - (53)
                                                 None so dumb as who won't think. -NT - (Arkadiy) - (52)
                                                     Heh. - (mmoffitt) - (51)
                                                         That's evidence? - (imric)
                                                         What third parties? - (Arkadiy) - (49)
                                                             Interpretation? You're interpretting ferchrissakes. - (mmoffitt) - (48)
                                                                 Not even close - (Nightowl) - (6)
                                                                     <sigh> - (mmoffitt) - (5)
                                                                         Not sure - (Nightowl) - (4)
                                                                             The nut. - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                                                                                 Ah ok - (Nightowl) - (2)
                                                                                     NO! - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                                                                         Same thing - (Nightowl)
                                                                 No kudos to you for repeating - (imric) - (8)
                                                                     Huh? - (mmoffitt) - (7)
                                                                         Go ahead - change your point - (imric) - (6)
                                                                             Yes! - (Nightowl) - (2)
                                                                                 *chuckle* - (imric) - (1)
                                                                                     True, but - (Nightowl)
                                                                             Hey, that's *graduate* philosophies ;-) - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                                                                 Is it? - (imric) - (1)
                                                                                     Re: Is it? - (Nightowl)
                                                                 Ego is Id - (ChrisR) - (3)
                                                                     I'm not sure about a non-theist, because I'm not one. - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                                                         So which passage says that we should commit violence? - (ChrisR) - (1)
                                                                             Wow, great response! - (Nightowl)
                                                                 I guess it all depends on what's - (Arkadiy) - (27)
                                                                     I could be wrong about this, but I think "case" - (mmoffitt) - (26)
                                                                         It's a parable - (Arkadiy) - (25)
                                                                             Re: It's a parable - (Nightowl) - (3)
                                                                                 "New Covenant" hmmmmmmm..... - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                                                                     Ooops -- ignore.. moving to religion as requested - (Nightowl) - (1)
                                                                                         I have no idea what you're talking about (new thread) - (Nightowl)
                                                                             The "unbelievers" are a class. - (mmoffitt) - (20)
                                                                                 How is that clear? - (Nightowl)
                                                                                 Oh my. A class. - (Arkadiy) - (18)
                                                                                     Psssst! Don't tell Bryce..... -NT - (jb4) - (12)
                                                                                         Remember, the meek shall inherit the earth... -NT - (pwhysall) - (11)
                                                                                             And what did poor bastards do to deserver such fate? -NT - (Arkadiy)
                                                                                             6' deep 6' long and 4' wide -NT - (boxley) - (8)
                                                                                                 4' wide?????? - (Nightowl) - (2)
                                                                                                     take a measuring tape to your next funeral 4' wide -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                                         Was just at a wake (new thread) - (Nightowl)
                                                                                                 And it's Christian thing to share... - (a6l6e6x) - (4)
                                                                                                     Okay, that's it - (jake123) - (3)
                                                                                                         Well, we tried earlier - (Nightowl) - (2)
                                                                                                             YOU ALL SUCK - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                                                                                                 Oddly enough, I got it (new thread) - (orion)
                                                                                             Since when was Bryce meek? -NT - (jb4)
                                                                                     Almost, but not quite. - (mmoffitt) - (4)
                                                                                         Read it carefully - (Arkadiy) - (3)
                                                                                             You made my point. - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                                                                                 Ashton mode on - (Arkadiy) - (1)
                                                                                                     I like [referent] mode better. - (Ashton)
                                 Re: Counter-example to your last. - (Simon_Jester)
                                 No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition! - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                     Thanks! I was waiting for that ;0) -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                 And who commissioned that Inquisition? Church or state? -NT - (FuManChu)
                             Been there. Done that. - (Ashton)
             Electicity is quicker and cheaper! - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
                 You got you a mean streak in ya.... -NT - (jb4)
         One note (images included) - (jake123)

Shiny buttons are human catnip.
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