Re: No, no and no

Post #110,886 by Nightowl 7/22/03 11:53:55 AM Reply	Re: No, no and no Drewk wrote:>>The goal is to convince people "Something Is Being Done". In your case, at least, it seems to be working.<< All I know is that we haven't had another hijacking, or another plane flown into a major US building since 9/11/01, and that tells me they must be doing something right. Nightowl >8# P.S. Sorry Scott, I tried quoting this properly four times, and still had unmatched something or other, so I gave up and did it this way. "Only dead fish swim with the stream." Linda Ellerbee
Post #110,899 by boxley 7/22/03 12:31:17 PM Reply	do you moo when you go to the airport? I suppose cattle prods would move folks along more efficiently and faster. My question is this, if I am a terrorist planning a strike is false ID a problem? No. Is getting a weapon abourd a plane a problem? No. The problem that is being solved is to disallow people to trade tickets to each other without the airlines making a buck. That is the problem being solved here. Intimidation of passengers to allow any indignity just to be able to board that plane. That is being solved so well the airlines are failing. These things have nothing to do with safety, thwy have to do with control. I suppose you think gun registration is safer also. thanx, bill questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #110,900 by Nightowl 7/22/03 12:36:00 PM 7/22/03 12:36:33 PM Reply	Re: do you moo when you go to the airport? I suppose cattle prods would move folks along more efficiently and faster. My question is this, if I am a terrorist planning a strike is false ID a problem? No. Is getting a weapon abourd a plane a problem? No. The problem that is being solved is to disallow people to trade tickets to each other without the airlines making a buck. That is the problem being solved here. Intimidation of passengers to allow any indignity just to be able to board that plane. That is being solved so well the airlines are failing. These things have nothing to do with safety, thwy have to do with control. I suppose you think gun registration is safer also. Hmm, well, I don't go to the airport much, except on occasion to pick someone up, so I don't need to moo. Mostly I hoot. ;) I don't know about gun registration, I think it's good to be able to track a weapon when it killed someone, but on the other hand, I don't know that it truly makes us safer from being killed. Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" Comment by Nightowl Edited by Nightowl July 22, 2003, 12:36:33 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #110,926 by drewk 7/22/03 3:12:06 PM Reply	I also haven't been trampled by any elephants since 9/11 I guess those airport security measures are working really well. What? You say the airport security measures have nothing whatsoever to do with my not getting trampled by an elephant? But it hasn't happened since they started those security procedures. Get it? === Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
Post #110,960 by jb4 7/22/03 5:53:18 PM Reply	ROFL! jb4 The difference between Confidence and Ego is that Confidence has respect, while Ego does not. Candyce Burns (my wife)
Post #111,014 by Nightowl 7/22/03 10:29:29 PM Reply	Re: I also haven't been trampled by any elephants since 9/11 I guess those airport security measures are working really well. What? You say the airport security measures have nothing whatsoever to do with my not getting trampled by an elephant? But it hasn't happened since they started those security procedures. Get it? Honestly? No I don't get it. Because as I tried to explain in my previous post, I was afraid of crashing airplanes after 9/11. I haven't been given reason to be afraid of elephants trampling me, like I was given reason to be afraid of planes crashing into buildings. Get it? Nightowl >8# Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001. "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" Comment by Nightowl
Post #111,019 by boxley 7/22/03 10:48:29 PM Reply	Why are you afraid of crashing Airplanes? Some nutbag stands up screaming Allah is going to kill us all no one is going to wait around to have the pilot handle it. He/She is going to be killed by the women who's husband is cheating on her and she knows it the guy whose back has been kicked by a little kid 3 thousand times in the last minute the guy jammed between 2 300 pounders the lady whose nipple was examined with hoots and grunts by dumass securityt folks the granny who only wants to get to see her grandkids one more time me who has a legitimate reason to murder someone with their bare handsbecause I was was delayed for 16 hrs due to fuckwits who run security. guess what, plane lands safely. terrorist might live long nough for tial. thanx, bill questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #111,026 by Nightowl 7/22/03 11:07:17 PM Reply	Re: Why are you afraid of crashing Airplanes? Well, I didn't understand most of your post or why it was relevant, sorry. But I was afraid of airplanes crashing into my house because they crashed into the Twin Towers. Didn't matter how illogical it was that a plane would choose my house to crash into, nonetheless, that is where my fears after 9/11 manifested themselves. Since most of your post talked about the people on the plane that would crash, I don't know how it applies to me, sorry. I was simply afraid of one crashing into my house. Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" Comment by Nightowl
Post #111,030 by Another Scott 7/22/03 11:17:47 PM Reply	Boxish to English translation. "Why are you concerned about someone hijacking a plane and crashing it into a building? Since 9/11, if someone attempts to hijack a plane, no passenger is going to sit idly by and let the pilot and crew handle the situation. The hijacker would be attacked by the angry passengers. If the hijacker is lucky, he or she might survive the ordeal long enough to stand trial." Thus (by my inference of boxley's post), you're safer now than you were before 9/11 due to increased vigilance by your fellow passengers - not due to the actions or statements by Department of Homeland Security. HTH. Cheers, Scott.
Post #111,040 by Nightowl 7/22/03 11:59:22 PM Reply	Re: Boxish to English translation. Thus (by my inference of boxley's post), you're safer now than you were before 9/11 due to increased vigilance by your fellow passengers - not due to the actions or statements by Department of Homeland Security. I agree Scott, the passengers who stop the hijackers are also part of the "placebo" concept. Basically, knowing anything whatsoever is being done to change the circumstances which led to 9/11 helps to ease my mind. And just for a moment, think in terms of the hijackers. Maybe they are also deterred not only by the security measures in place, but also the fact that now they might have to deal with angry passengers bent on stopping them. It all adds up one piece at a time to be one more protective measure. Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" Comment by Nightowl
Post #111,033 by boxley 7/22/03 11:22:00 PM Reply	Well do you cower in fear that cars, and cows crash into your house? Everytime you here a siren do you crawl under the bed in case it is chasing a criminal into your abode? When you here strange noises do you quickly grab a shotgun, jack a shell into the chamber and start hunting strangers? Fear is a good thing, it keeps us alive. Irrational fear invoked by strange events needs to be analysed and statistically evaluated as rational or hysteria. Your chances of a plane landing on your house is much greaater by pilots who suffer a heart attack in a small plane than terrorists aiming at you. So please explain why your irrational fear of terrorists require me to kiss some govt flunkies ass to get where I am going. Not picking on you, just trying to have you think unintended consequences. thanx, bill questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #111,044 by Nightowl 7/23/03 12:12:50 AM Reply	Re: Well do you cower in fear that cars, and cows crash into your house? Everytime you here a siren do you crawl under the bed in case it is chasing a criminal into your abode? When you here strange noises do you quickly grab a shotgun, jack a shell into the chamber and start hunting strangers? Do you want an honest answer, because you might not like it. Yes, sirens make me jump. Loud cars make me jump. I don't crawl under the bed, but my heart pounds. I don't own a gun, but if I hear a noise, I check it out. I was taught to be afraid, which is a bad thing. My father moved here to St. Louis from a country town where you threw your front door open and had no fear of your neighbors or anything else. He was so paranoid upon moving here he promptly instilled fear in his children based on his own fear. He didn't mean to, and I know that now, but I've fought against it for years, only making little breakthroughs and thinking I've won, to have something else new take me back two steps. Fear is a good thing, it keeps us alive. Irrational fear invoked by strange events needs to be analysed and statistically evaluated as rational or hysteria. Your chances of a plane landing on your house is much greaater by pilots who suffer a heart attack in a small plane than terrorists aiming at you. So please explain why your irrational fear of terrorists require me to kiss some govt flunkies ass to get where I am going. Not picking on you, just trying to have you think unintended consequences. Fear is a good thing if it is in moderation, and not in the form of panic. I agree there. I also know my fear of a plane crashing into my house was irrational. I stated that. I also dealt with my counselor about it in great detail. Unfortunately, it was a major thing, 9/11 and it invoked many irrational fears in many people, not just me. I don't require you to do anything, I simply said the extra security measures give me some degree of comfort. I know you aren't picking on me, I know you want me to think about it. But I have. I thought about planes, planes crashing, air safety, 9/11 for months and months before I was finally able to get past it and live normally. Maybe I have too much trust in the people who are there to protect us, but I'd rather trust them than fear them, if that makes any sense. I deal with my fears, every day, of many things. And I've come a long way, really, in some of them. But the trauma of 9/11 still remains one of the worst things I've encountered, and seen and lived through, and I suspect it always will, unless I live to see something inherently worse. Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" Comment by Nightowl
Post #110,959 by jb4 7/22/03 5:52:01 PM Reply	You have an interesting sense of history All I know is that we haven't had another hijacking, or another plane flown into a major US building since 9/11/01, and that tells me they must be doing something right. Hoo-fuckin-ray, no hijacking in about one-and-a-half-years in the US. Of course, we didn't have a hijacking in the US for at least that long in the US before 11Sep01 (I don't have the exact numbers, but I'm sure the collective memory of the LRPD can come up with the exact facts with several links to back it up...its a wonderful toy!). So what's yer point? That sheep prevent hijackings? jb4 The difference between Confidence and Ego is that Confidence has respect, while Ego does not. Candyce Burns (my wife)
Post #111,013 by Nightowl 7/22/03 10:26:12 PM Reply	Re: You have an interesting sense of history Hoo-fuckin-ray, no hijacking in about one-and-a-half-years in the US. Of course, we didn't have a hijacking in the US for at least that long in the US before 11Sep01 (I don't have the exact numbers, but I'm sure the collective memory of the LRPD can come up with the exact facts with several links to back it up...its a wonderful toy!). So what's yer point? That sheep prevent hijackings? No, my point is, I guess that I have seen a result. But based on my actual use of the airline industry, I probably have no true basis for deciding anything about it. Bottom line is I don't have the delays and annoyances, because I do not fly. Perhaps if I did fly, I would feel differently. And I don't know what you mean by sheep, to be honest. But I also believe that any level of comfort that can be gained by the concept of "Someone doing something about the situation" is also based on the feelings of the person getting the comfort. In my case, I had traumatic nightmares for months after 9/11, afraid that a plane would crash into my house. I know that was an "unreasonable" fear, but nonetheless, that is what 9/11 caused me to deal with. It took me MONTHS before I could stop listening for planes, stop watching for planes, and finally sleep comfortably. And a lot of that comfort was dervived from the measures the airlines and Homeland Security took to protect us. Maybe it was like a placebo or something, really didn't do anything in particular, but caused me the ability to relax and believe I was safe, regardless. Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" Comment by Nightowl
Post #111,025 by Ashton 7/22/03 11:05:05 PM Reply	Out of the mouths of - Here you have succinctly summed-up the vast majority of in-place placebos constructed by this Admin: Maybe it was like a placebo or something, really didn't do anything in particular, but caused me the ability to relax and believe I was safe An almost brilliant comment, if I do say so - if you indeed understand the implications of what you said. And were you to take the time and attention to examine the PATRIOT Act and a few thousand other words that have entered our vocabulary since 9/11, why then.. just possibly you might find somewhere an association with the word sheep. Maybe not. Or to put it more simply, safety? [whatever a 'life' of perfect safety might be, in your ken] VS the appearance-of safety. More would be telling. Ashton
Post #111,031 by Nightowl 7/22/03 11:18:30 PM Reply	Re: Out of the mouths of - Here you have succinctly summed-up the vast majority of in-place placebos constructed by this Admin: Maybe it was like a placebo or something, really didn't do anything in particular, but caused me the ability to relax and believe I was safe An almost brilliant comment, if I do say so - if you indeed understand the implications of what you said. And were you to take the time and attention to examine the PATRIOT Act and a few thousand other words that have entered our vocabulary since 9/11, why then.. just possibly you might find somewhere an association with the word sheep. Maybe not. Okay. I know what you mean now. You mean do I follow orders or obey the laws, and the answer is basically, yes. I'm not a person who makes waves often, although I do defend my position when I feel it is being violated or attacked. I figure the government must know at least better than I, what should be done, when I can't even barely comprehend what all is going on politically. So yes, in that sense, I'm a sheep and hey, sheep live long happy lives, only giving their wool on occasion, where wolves are hunted down and shot. ;) Or to put it more simply, safety? [whatever a 'life' of perfect safety might be, in your ken] VS the appearance-of safety. More would be telling. Okay, you're saying I should not let the appearance of saftey lull me into a false sense of security, and believe me, I don't completely do that. In fact, I am still very nervous at times regarding the events of 9/11. But it still gave me some measure of comfort to know something was being done, just like my security alarm system gives me some measure of comfort that I'm safe in my own house. Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" Comment by Nightowl
Post #111,035 by Ashton 7/22/03 11:31:46 PM Reply	Two words re safe sheep____lamb chops
Post #111,045 by Nightowl 7/23/03 12:22:29 AM Reply	Re: Two words re safe sheep____lamb chops Not always. Some are bred purely for their wool. :) Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" Comment by Nightowl
Post #111,054 by rcareaga 7/23/03 12:39:43 AM Reply	Dear God... Please tell me you don't vote. That would be too depressing to contemplate. Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
Post #111,057 by Nightowl 7/23/03 12:45:00 AM Reply	Re: Dear God... Please tell me you don't vote. That would be too depressing to contemplate. Didn't you read my post to Ashton about that very topic? :) I rarely vote. Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" Comment by Nightowl
Post #111,062 by rcareaga 7/23/03 12:51:49 AM Reply	Re: Dear God... I am gratified, madame, beyond my power to express this. Believe me to be very, very cordially yours, Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
Post #111,061 by Nightowl 7/23/03 12:50:54 AM Reply	Re: Dear God... And furthermore, sir, why does my one single vote matter so much? My father used to tell me that all the time. I HAD TO VOTE, it was IMPERATIVE. Well, I don't get it. Millions of people vote, and no election I've ever seen that mattered was won by one ballot. So don't worry about my vote or non-vote. Worry about the millions or thousands or whatever number of people there are that will vote the way you worry about. Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" Comment by Nightowl
Post #111,065 by rcareaga 7/23/03 1:01:58 AM Reply	nightowl wonders "why does my one single vote matter so much?" Your one single vote matters hardly at all. The votes of millions of equally ill-informed enfranchised residents of this allegedly great land matter a great deal. I don't wish to be unkind, but your social and political observations as I have observed them to date strike me as appallingly naïve, even childlike. I can respect those political adversaries whose arguments, even when I violently disagree with them, give some evidence of rational calculations behind them. Your reasonings, my dear nightowl, would not do credit to a twelve year-old. I do applaud, however, your disinclination to vote. cordially, Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
Post #111,066 by Nightowl 7/23/03 1:10:23 AM Reply	Re: nightowl wonders I don't wish to be unkind, but your social and political observations as I have observed them to date strike me as appallingly naive, even childlike. I can respect those political adversaries whose arguments, even when I violently disagree with them, give some evidence of rational calculations behind them. Your reasonings, my dear nightowl, would not do credit to a twelve year-old. I do applaud, however, your disinclination to vote. Ok, granted on the political end. I was just never interested in politics, and still am not, and it's very difficult for me to understand. So yes, I'm sure I have about a grade school level of comprehension for that. As for my social observations, I'm not sure what you mean by that one. Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" Comment by Nightowl
Post #111,182 by jb4 7/23/03 6:57:11 PM Reply	NO... what I meant was... ...that Sheep are willing to be led (actually, "herded" is the operative term) to whatever fate, Macheavelian [sic] or otherwise, that their "leaders" (read: shepherds) lead them into, and will quitely accept their fate without so much as a whimper (except perhaps, at the very end....). Sheep don't question whether they are being duped, or led down the primrose path, because they feel "safe" when they are being herded somewhere. Airport "security", as it is being practiced today, is so much handwaving. It has been repeatedly shown to be wastetime, ineffective window-dressing that does nothing to address the real problem of securing the airways against those evil-doers would would use said airways to do evil. Yet you, and so many others, are willing -- indeed eager -- to allow this inneffective handwaving exercise in the name of "heightend security" because you "feel so much safer" now that the Government "is doing something about security". Sheep! Get it now? jb4 The difference between Confidence and Ego is that Confidence has respect, while Ego does not. Candyce Burns (my wife)
Post #111,189 by Nightowl 7/23/03 8:57:07 PM 7/23/03 8:58:18 PM Reply	Re: NO... what I meant was... ...that Sheep are willing to be led (actually, "herded" is the operative term) to whatever fate, Macheavelian [sic] or otherwise, that their "leaders" (read: shepherds) lead them into, and will quitely accept their fate without so much as a whimper (except perhaps, at the very end....). Sheep don't question whether they are being duped, or led down the primrose path, because they feel "safe" when they are being herded somewhere. Well then I am most definitely NOT a sheep. If that was the case, I would still be employed today at a job I loved, rather than be a victim of having refused to do something I was told which was immoral and against the policy, and having lost a fight against a major university which ultimately cost me my job, my confidence in employment, and my self-confidence, some of the latter, which i have finally reacquired. Airport "security", as it is being practiced today, is so much handwaving. It has been repeatedly shown to be wastetime, ineffective window-dressing that does nothing to address the real problem of securing the airways against those evil-doers would would use said airways to do evil. Yet you, and so many others, are willing -- indeed eager -- to allow this inneffective handwaving exercise in the name of "heightend security" because you "feel so much safer" now that the Government "is doing something about security". I think the only reason I allow it is I have no say on it, am not part of it, do not fly and therefore, never considered it on any serious level. Make sense? I didn't say I did anything to cause it to be, only that knowing it happens gave me a level of comfort. There is a difference in being actively involved in causing something to happen, and simply gaining something from it happening. Get it now? Yes, but I still do not consider myself a sheep, based on your first paragraphs here, because I always question anything that directly affects me if I think it's wrong. Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" Comment by Nightowl Edited by Nightowl July 23, 2003, 08:58:18 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #111,380 by boxley 7/24/03 11:43:05 PM Reply	AHAH! an almost tenured professor suspected education when I saw that loverly car you drive. thanx, bill questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #111,389 by Nightowl 7/25/03 12:11:56 AM Reply	Re: AHAH! an almost tenured professor suspected education when I saw that loverly car you drive. Thanks Box. I do adore my car. :) But I was not a professor, was just on my way to becoming a History major... But I do have a 2 year degree in Communications, Creative Writing. So yes, I'd say I'm fairly educated... just never completed the 4 year thing and may not, don't know. Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" Comment by Nightowl
Post #111,226 by hnick 7/24/03 7:39:37 AM Reply	Retirement package still includes mint jelly...
Post #111,311 by jb4 7/24/03 4:52:49 PM Reply	chuckle jb4 The difference between Confidence and Ego is that Confidence has respect, while Ego does not. Candyce Burns (my wife)
Post #111,320 by Ashton 7/24/03 5:17:38 PM Reply	Oh You Kid..!______(speak goatish?) 23 Skiddoo
Post #111,499 by tuberculosis 7/25/03 5:35:15 PM 8/21/07 6:03:03 AM Reply	What I know All I know is that we haven't had another hijacking, or another plane flown into a major US building since 9/11/01, and that tells me they must be doing something right. We know more than that. For instance, we know that the technique used to hijack the airplanes no longer works once people have expanded their sphere of possible outcomes. In fact, that technique failed as soon as the passengers on the 4th plane learned about one of the other planes from a cell phone call. They acted to foil the terrorists (at the cost of their own lives). If they had known a little earlier, I doubt the terrorists would have gained access to the cockpit and the plane would likely have landed safely. That's what we know. Prior to the first plane hitting a building - this sort of action was inconceivable to the average civilian. This is no longer true and it will never be true again. The other thing I know is I have a right to personal grooming tools and I'm fed up with buying new ones everytime I get on a plane. Smalltalk is dangerous. It is a drug. My advice to you would be don't try it; it could ruin your life. Once you take the time to learn it (to REALLY learn it) you will see that there is nothing out there (yet) to touch it. Of course, like all drugs, how dangerous it is depends on your character. It may be that once you've got to this stage you'll find it difficult (if not impossible) to "go back" to other languages and, if you are forced to, you might become an embittered character constantly muttering ascerbic comments under your breath. Who knows, you may even have to quit the software industry altogether because nothing else lives up to your new expectations. --AndyBower Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:03:03 AM EDT Expand All History

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