Man kicked off plane for political button

7/22/03 11:02:12 PM

Re: You. Would.

A few weeks back I was reproached here for being beastly to orion. I meekly backed off. No more.

His contributions are so reliably witless that I now consider any responses, however nasty, to be rather in the way of spraying a caustic disinfectant on a persistent mold.

Such relentless stupidity as Norm routinely displays deserves to be driven offline. He contributes nothing but noise to the political fora.

cordially,

Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.

Post #111,024

by boxley

7/22/03 11:04:22 PM

that noise represents 70+% of Amerikan voters :(

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

Post #111,027

by Ashton

7/22/03 11:07:26 PM

OK then.. what % of the plurality: the non-voters?

Post #111,029

by boxley

7/22/03 11:13:15 PM

even larger :(

there is a huge group who depend on friends, co-workers and gossip to base political decisions on. The dont vote have only the barest of ideas on how the world works and never read a paper or watch the news. This is the group of people we are responsible for.
thanx,
bill

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

Post #111,034

by Ashton

7/22/03 11:25:42 PM

I see only one solution, then.

Sterility. Water supply. Let planet try to regenerate.. somehow. If it isn't already irreversible [??]

DNA will come up with something more copacetic.
Be Patient.

Post #111,036

by boxley

7/22/03 11:37:11 PM

No, Je refuse!!! we are responsable for our fellow man

If we know a small inkling to better the common man we must propagate as needed. If people think we are strange and stupid so be it. Rand might find La Famiglia unwilling to listen, I will find Sharon will ignore me and you will be written off as that demagogue from Ktown, but at least WE TRIED!!!! Our only condemnation can be "we didnt try hard enough" That actually is faint praise as the sheeple finally understand that Manson was not an abberation but a model for government's to follow.
thanx,
bill

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

Post #111,047

by FuManChu

7/23/03 12:24:26 AM

How ironic.

Sterility. Water supply. Let planet try to regenerate.. somehow. If it isn't already irreversible [??]

Sounds like the Noah Solution. You'll catch up to the Big Guy some day. ;D

I'm gonna go build my own theme park! With Blackjack! And hookers! In fact, forget the park!

Post #111,073

by Ashton

7/23/03 1:34:52 AM

Heh.. My Father has many liquids___er 'solutions' :-\ufffd

Post #111,043

7/23/03 12:05:24 AM

Re: even larger :(

there is a huge group who depend on friends, co-workers and gossip to base political decisions on. The dont vote have only the barest of ideas on how the world works and never read a paper or watch the news. This is the group of people we are responsible for.

Well, I don't vote much for a very different reason, really. Partly because my father always "made" me vote (i.e. put enough pressure and hassle on me so I would) the way he wanted me to for years. Thus, when I got out from under his thumb, I was really green about politics. I had only voted this way because, "Dad said it was the right thing."

So when I voted in the last political election, I had John sit down with me and help me understand the platform a little, and determine if indeed the party I chose to vote for (which turned out to be the party Dad approves of), was indeed standing for something I believed in and understood. I'm happy to say that when I finally voted then, I voted based on knowledge, not on past behavior.

But honestly, I get swamped trying to understand 99% of the political stuff, so I only make the effort on major elections. Maybe that makes me a bad person in some people's eyes, but to each their own, I say.

It also doesn't help that when I do vote, I tend to almost pass out sometimes in the crowded room, because a) I'm in a crowded room which makes me highly nervous, (crowd claustrophobia), b) I have to stand a long long time, which tends to make me dizzy in any stuffy room, (I took water last time and my little hand water bottle-fan), and c) I don't even know how to vote well and had to get help every time I have.

I don't know if I have enough medical basis to be given a "disability" treatment at the polls, and I've never pursued it, but I did almost pass out in that room despite my water and fan, and they were very worried about it.

Nightoel >8#

"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!"

Comment by Nightowl

Post #111,032

by Ashton

7/22/03 11:19:37 PM

I confess that I vacillate on that one

After all, Mrs. O'Leary's cow didn't mean to burn down Chicago. (although perhaps today.. premeditation? might be a coin toss, for a particularly sentient cow)

..but then, some days ya just gotta bite a guinea hen, while keeping in touch with the tempo of the literal folk. Gawd must have Loved Them - made so many - er would that be, in His image? {ulp} hmmm no Wonder that mutual admiration society.
>outnumbered, Again!<

Post #111,048

by FuManChu

7/23/03 12:25:44 AM

I have a friend

...who gave me a bumper sticker bearing only two words: "CENSOR MEDIOCRITY". I couldn't bring myself to put it on anything then. Having a serious rethink now.

I'm gonna go build my own theme park! With Blackjack! And hookers! In fact, forget the park!

Post #111,063

7/23/03 12:53:21 AM

Re: You. Would.

A few weeks back I was reproached here for being beastly to orion. I meekly backed off. No more.

His contributions are so reliably witless that I now consider any responses, however nasty, to be rather in the way of spraying a caustic disinfectant on a persistent mold.

Such relentless stupidity as Norm routinely displays deserves to be driven offline. He contributes nothing but noise to the political fora.

Well, I was trying to stay out of this one, but honestly, I think it's extreme to say that every single thing any one person ever says is stupid. I think there have been posts by Norm that are good contributions at times.

I'm just saying that generalizing about any one person is usually not the nicest thing to do, because no matter how stupid or dumb or witless anyone is, they aren't, as a rule, always stupid or dumb or witless.

Nightowl >8#

cordially,

Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.

"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!"

Comment by Nightowl

Post #111,067

7/23/03 1:16:34 AM

Listen to yourself

Nightowl protests:

I'm just saying that generalizing about any one person is usually not the nicest thing to do, because no matter how stupid or dumb or witless anyone is, they aren't, as a rule, always stupid or dumb or witless.

1. Nice is not what I'm attempting here.

2. An individual who is routinely "dumb, stupid and witless" doesn't have to be invariably dumb, stupid and witless in order to constitute a significant degradation--as Norman does--to the signal-to-noise ratio here. I actually posted a few halfhearted defenses of him against his more caustic critics many months ago. I'd take these back if I could. In the fora I follow he almost invariably contributes nothing but imbecility.

impatiently,

Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.

Post #111,069

7/23/03 1:24:45 AM

Re: Listen to yourself

I wasn't protesting, just making an observation.

2. An individual who is routinely "dumb, stupid and witless" doesn't have to be invariably dumb, stupid and witless in order to constitute a significant degradation--as Norman does--to the signal-to-noise ratio here. I actually posted a few halfhearted defenses of him against his more caustic critics many months ago. I'd take these back if I could. In the fora I follow he almost invariably contributes nothing but imbecility.

And I have this to say, and only this. Statements like that, about any individual, contribute to that individual's behavior and beliefs about themselves. I know, I was one who was left behind when someone took their life based on feelings like these. I'm thankful that I never said such things to them.

I wasn't talking solely about Norman. I was talking about any person who has the right to exist, to interact, and to live, and to not be persecuted. That's all i was saying. Believe it or not, your words and thoughts and statements do impact the people who hear them.

Nightowl >8#

"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!"

Comment by Nightowl

Post #111,070

7/23/03 1:26:00 AM

Re: Listen to yourself

Anyone who would take their own life based on words on a web page is probably wading in the shallow end of the gene pool to start with.

Post #111,074

7/23/03 1:43:27 AM

Re: Listen to yourself

Anyone who would take their own life based on words on a web page is probably wading in the shallow end of the gene pool to start with.

I didn't say it was on a web page, it wasn't. And it's not relevant, because the gravity of what is said is based on the relationship with those who say it, regardless of on the web, the phone, in person, etc.

If people regard your opinion highly, and your opinion of them is low, it doesn't matter where they hear it.

Nightowl >8#

"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!"

Comment by Nightowl

Post #111,072

7/23/03 1:30:16 AM

7/23/03 9:50:01 AM

Re: Listen to yourself

If my "words and thoughts and statements" serve in some small measure to discourage Norman's participation here--it's not necessary that he should actually expire in consequence of the comparatively mild abuse I send his way--I will feel that I haven't lived in vain.

cordially,

[edit: typo]

Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.

Edited by rcareaga July 23, 2003, 09:50:01 AM EDT

Expand All History

Post #111,130

by orion

7/23/03 12:11:26 PM

I am not going away

no matter what anyone here says. Your words haven't discouraged me, and better than you have tried.

Your have a right to your opinion of me, call me stupid and witless if you will, I won't agree with your opinions, but I will defend your right to have one.

To me, stupid and witless is having a button that says "Suspected Terrorist" on an airplane after the 9/11 attacks. I equate that with, as someone elsewere stated for something else, as stupid and witless as shaking a wasps nest. Political Statement or not, it is just asking for trouble.

Post #111,143

7/23/03 12:49:09 PM

Re: I am not going away

To me, stupid and witless is having a button that says "Suspected Terrorist" on an airplane after the 9/11 attacks. I equate that with, as someone elsewere stated for something else, as stupid and witless as shaking a wasps nest. Political Statement or not, it is just asking for trouble.

I tend to agree. Kinda reminds me of the situation where the guy tried to take a clock shaped like several sticks of dynamite and a fuse on an airplane. fortunately, he didn't make a fuss when they confiscated it, but still, taking something that looks like a bomb on board an airplane just a few short months after 9/11, well that seems like a pretty stupid thing to do to me.

Nightowl >8#

"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!"

Comment by Nightowl

Post #111,146

by orion

7/23/03 1:12:28 PM

Exactly

I tend to agree. Kinda reminds me of the situation where the guy tried to take a clock shaped like several sticks of dynamite and a fuse on an airplane. fortunately, he didn't make a fuss when they confiscated it, but still, taking something that looks like a bomb on board an airplane just a few short months after 9/11, well that seems like a pretty stupid thing to do to me.

Security has to investigate anything suspicious, having a "Suspected Terrorist" button raises a red flag as much as an alarm clock shaped like several sticks of dynamite.

Post #111,227

7/24/03 7:48:11 AM

Red Flag?

Security has to investigate anything suspicious, having a "Suspected Terrorist" button raises a red flag as much as an alarm clock shaped like several sticks of dynamite.

/me affixes to Norm a button that says "Suspected Idiot".

Post #111,258

by folkert

7/24/03 10:57:58 AM

ICLRPD (new thread)

Created as new thread #111257 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=111257|ICLRPD]

[link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg] - IT Grand-Master for Anti-President
[link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!]

THEY ARE WATCHING YOU.
The time has come for you to take the last step.
You must love THEM.
It is not enough to obey THEM.
You must love THEM.

PEACE BEGETS WAR, SLAVERY IS FREEDOM, STRENGTH IN IGNORANCE.

Post #111,259

by admin

7/24/03 11:00:43 AM

Must be the "Purloined Letter" theory of covert ops...

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Post #111,315

by Ashton

7/24/03 4:59:55 PM

or cf the movie, "Charade" - for the non-reader.

Post #111,334

7/24/03 6:26:28 PM

Re: the movie, "Charade"

Playing on the big screen at the Paramount in downtown Oakland Friday night. I'll be there. (Flashback to 1993: I'm housesitting for prosperous elder brother in nearby Piedmont; not-so prosperous younger brother comes to visit. "Charade" is showing that evening on local PBS station; younger brother has never seen; we watch. Halfway through, following some particularly sparking exchange between A. Hepburn and C. Grant I turn to YB; am about to say "Boy, they don't write 'em like this anymore," when YB brutally bursts my bubble, saying, in a voice dripping with scorn, "I can't believe moviegoers ever sat still for this stilted, corny dialogue. Who wrote this shit?")

cordially,

Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.

Post #111,337

by folkert

7/24/03 6:30:18 PM

Oh me oh my...

You know you are getting old when stuff like that happens... Either that or your are FAR more civilized than your younger brother.

Maybe both heh?

[link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg] - IT Grand-Master for Anti-President
[link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!]

Post #111,340

7/24/03 6:48:23 PM

Re: Oh me oh my...

As to the younger brother's level of civilization...well, that was a decade ago. Since then he's acquired an advanced degree, a profession and a great gig (his job is, in broad outline and in several particulars, including actual employer, the job I expected eventually to land thirty years ago); has turned forty and then some; has had several life-changing experiences, including having his heart broken by a fucking expert--I sense that the lad has been seasoned. The test, of course, would be to sit him down in front of the film again and see if he behaves himself any batter.

cordially,

Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.

Post #111,379

by boxley

7/24/03 11:35:53 PM

Well Kate was the poster child for Zappa's Dynamo Hum

you always got the feeling that a pair of zircon encrusted tweezers etc. would cook that lady. As far as older flics that show heat with crap dialogue(not my opinion but general american opinions) was Taylor and Burton in "the taming of the shrew" Few actors had the absolute devilment Burton could emote, steamed to the gills or not. Taylor was a pretty thing who could take direction. I have always suspected that Bill Murray "might" be able to do Burtons role well but against who as fair lead? As for Grant, he was a lighthearted, quick with a delivery, and siotabe charm. Father Goose was good (of course I enjoyed "the road" movies as well)
thanx,
bill

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

Post #111,351

7/24/03 9:12:58 PM

Good story. He was right!

-drl

Post #111,353

7/24/03 9:16:45 PM

Re: Good story. He was right!

Hmmm...you look older in your photos.

cordially,

Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.

Post #111,357

7/24/03 9:34:00 PM

7/24/03 9:35:47 PM

Re: Good story. He was right!

Yes.

For some reason, I soured on Cary Grant. I'll still say North by Northwest is in the top 5. I can't watch The Philadelphia Story. As for Katherine Hepburn, well, I lost interest a long time ago. She was great in Guess Who's... and On Golden.. though.

And as for A. Hepburn, never had even the faintest clue what the deal was with her.

-drl

Edited by deSitter July 24, 2003, 09:35:47 PM EDT

Expand All History

Post #111,365

by Ashton

7/24/03 10:07:31 PM

Well.. about Audrey I could tell you.

But I won't.

K. Hepburn - to grok her! you'd have to become intimately acquainted with the Murican social mores of about a 40 year span. So yours is kinda like another, "I don't like Bach" thing, y'know?

Odd you hadn't even noticed the subversive little digs which - in those days, She Alone! could get away with, because she was just so damn Brilliant. And I mean that literally: nobody else could have gotten away without Churchly Sermons from the lugubrious Ashcrofts du jour. And she was smart enough not to get locked-in to some ego-maniacal-Male Studio Czar for "permissions". (She also made a spate of bad movies - from which she had to climb out, all on her own. She climbed.) She had/has! no peer.

Some social stuff your fevered brain just ain't wired to Get. Oddly enough, at times you seem to realize this disconnect - then you forget :-)

Ashton

Post #111,366

7/24/03 10:14:38 PM

7/24/03 10:29:42 PM

Re: Well.. about Audrey I could tell you.

No Ash, I think I've just had it with bitchiness, and long instead for Dorothy McGuire or Donna Reed. When I was REALLY young, I had a huge crush of Dorothy McGuire. All the brilliant raving in the world from Kate can't encompass one radiating warming smile from DM.

Alas, I threw over Dorothy for Veronica Lake.

(edit: fact just discovered on IMDB - she's from my home town...)

(edit2: oops she died in my home town on 9/13/2001)

(edit3: Dorothy McGuire)
[image|http://www.movieforum.com/people/actresses/dorothymcguire/images/dorothymcguire.jpg||||]

-drl

Edited by deSitter July 24, 2003, 10:16:04 PM EDT

Edited by deSitter July 24, 2003, 10:17:41 PM EDT

Edited by deSitter July 24, 2003, 10:29:42 PM EDT

Expand All History

Post #111,371

7/24/03 10:42:26 PM

Audrey? *Bitchy*?

What color are the laws of physics in your cosmos?

gape-jawed,

Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.

Post #111,378

7/24/03 11:31:45 PM

Re: Audrey? *Bitchy*?

Ah. You were alluding to the other Hepburn. But, y'know?...I've got one of those myself. She doesn't have the jaw, but she's absolutely fearless, seldom discouraged, rushes in where angels fear to tread and, while occasionally infuriating in her brashness, routinely takes me out of that tendency in myself that my ex-wife witheringly dismissed as "old-lady"-ish. Try it sometime, if you have the opportunity.

cordially,

Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.

Post #111,401

7/25/03 7:46:18 AM

Re: Audrey? *Bitchy*?

Yes, she DEFINED the type, in BaT.

KH also help create the type - Desk Set etc.

-drl

Post #111,368

by a6l6e6x

7/24/03 10:17:34 PM

My brother, a movie addict, named one daughter Katharine.

Alex

A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul. -- George Bernard Shaw

Post #111,369

by admin

7/24/03 10:24:55 PM

Philadelphia story was a damn good movie AND play.

We watched it in tribute a few days after she died. Stewart won an Oscar for that role.

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Post #111,370

7/24/03 10:25:54 PM

Geez! Where to begin?

I mean, Cary Grant never rang my chimes either (I guess I'm just not wired that way), but you take the sixty- and seventysomething Kate Hepburn over the insolent, magnificent-jawed creature of The Philadelphia Story? And, sweet Jesus, you are impervious to the charm of the Hepburn at the other end of the war-of-the-sexes spectrum, female division, the exquisite Audrey? What color is the sky (blue bars and white stars on a red field apart) on your planet?

[I'd made it to about 34 or 35 without ever seeing The Philadelphia Story. I used to have a tiny TV (13 inches? eleven?), at that time my only appliance of that nature, parked on the kitchen table. Then newly-divorced, I was preparing a solitary evening meal, and switched on the tube for distraction. As it came to, we were about five minutes into what proved to be The Philadelphia Story. Cool! I watched for about half an hour until the local station broke in with a voice-over apology for the misunderstanding--apparently the advertised feature was The Philadelphia Experiment, a preposterous low-budget sci-fi yarn--and switched to the scheduled movie, advanced to the 40-minute mark. I think it was 2000 or 2001 before I finally cancelled out that episode of cinema interruptus by renting the 1939 production.]

No accounting for tastes...

(shrugging),

Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.

Post #111,391

by Ashton

7/25/03 1:12:05 AM

PS re the Other Hepburn

Composer of Moon River (Breakfast at Tiffany's) - too lazy to look him up: I heard discussing his various songs some years ago. He rattled off a number of Mega stars who'd sung this cute ditty and said.. ~"of all of those, the rendition of this song which I feel captures the spirit I had most in mind, and my personal favorite - is, Audrey Hepburn's." He then added, "..despite her non-training as a singer yada yada".

Ah well, I am of course prejudiced beyond all argument - for having met the little sweetie, alone and for maybe 8? minutes which seemed-like-an-hour at stage-door {first crush on an Older Woman}. It was at the precise moment Before she became Famous.. forever. This for my having seen a (rare) sneak preview of Roman Holiday, in Pasadena - then coming home for a break - to find that Audrey was playing Gigi in SF! And I Knew with what-passes-for Certainty.. what had to happen next.
{I'm still not sure.. if she had more than an inkling - of the reception to come ? Being modest or - standard actor's uncertainty?}

Nobody knew who 'she' was, obviously; She! was surprised that 'I Knew' anything. Which is why I was alone at the stage door and, instantly mesmerized by her innate and unmistakable charm; aura is no exaggeration - and her sincere interest: she had never seen! the final cut. She had Questions! of insignificant moi.

I almost succeeded in her acquiescing to my returning her to her hotel via Lambretta motor scooter (a Vespa in the flic!) until . . .
:( BUMMER:
some Yahoo appeared at doorway, to see why she was being so long and..

Sic Transit Gloria Mundi.
I. experienced. that. latin. Fully. :(:(

Days? few weeks? later: Everyone Knew. It-all was quite {another word abused fatally} extraordinary, her reception and all which followed. Whatever it is 'she was' - it was Different.

(And I Loved The Fact of her having such tiny breasts - for all those others who do and did. And especially for demonstrating just how irrelevant and stupid was/is the largest mammary-fetish boobocracy Of All Time. She transcended the boobocracy.)

Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle..

And she was elfin because - she was! and had damned near starved to death in WW-II Holland - and she was trained as a Ballet dancer. Nothing at all about auto-starving For Effect. No doubt she possessed her share of quaint personal foibles.. which I Was Robbed! ever of divining, by cruel Kismet.

RIP Audrey - you went out with Class, too.

Post #111,392

7/25/03 1:18:56 AM

Re: PS re the Other Hepburn

An extraordinary and touching story--but I've just raised my estimate of your likely age by five years.

cordially,

Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.

Post #111,393

by Ashton

7/25/03 1:37:46 AM

BTW - Audrey's US postage stamps are out!

[Heh.. everybody likes Mysteries - for the clue solving. Why, I am older than time.]

And I have a few panes to start with - it's a later more svelte, impeccably polished Audrey. Just a tad Too-perfect for my preference. Foolishly, they didn't ask me.

Seeing one who has just removed stage-makeup - now There's Honest Beauty. The kind that creates permanent memory in us susceptible mortals -- kinda glad I didn't have a camera; they lie.

Post #111,395

7/25/03 1:53:03 AM

Re: BTW - Audrey's US postage stamps are out!

Yep, we bought them already. :)

Nightowl >8#

"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!"

Comment by Nightowl

Post #111,406

by admin

7/25/03 9:11:10 AM

34 for me...

Video tape - no interruptions. ;-)

She wrote a good many of her lines for that film as well. Quite impressive.

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Post #111,412

by drewk

7/25/03 9:29:37 AM

Ok, that's the tangent limit people

Please please PLEASE take the next tangent to a new thread, the right-shift is getting ridiculous.

===

Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.

Post #111,474

by Ashton

7/25/03 3:15:09 PM

Oh..

Post #111,475

by Ashton

7/25/03 3:16:35 PM

Oh..______Kay..______then

Post #111,477

by orion

7/25/03 3:29:55 PM

Belings in Politics, Man Ejected Off Plane for Button (new thread)

Created as new thread #111476 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=111476|Belings in Politics, Man Ejected Off Plane for Button]

Post #110,770

by Ashton

7/21/03 7:54:39 PM

Wondering if pilots, aircrews are selected for general

obtuseness - or if the obtuse simply gravitate towards the field. I can see the attraction.. The idea that the cabinattendant 'thought' that this was some sort of button "placed there by er Security" (!) pretty much quashes any idea that there might be intelligence in that milieu.

Afraid of the word Terrorist - "don't 'like' to Hear it", she said. So then.. we're back to the ghost of Ari - "Watch what (your button) says, you suspect.." Hah - and some people argue that "It Can't Happen Here" was an exaggeration.

I wish him well in the lawsuit, but with Captains bouncing people who don't quite look WASPish - Just Because - and being backed-up in such inanity: well, sure sorry I haven't about four flights booked. So I could cancel. I will call BritAir tomorrow - every little bit(ch) Helps. And takes so little time.

Ashton
Let Them All Crash (er, their stock) - through passenger rejection.

Post #110,801

7/21/03 11:25:54 PM

Re: Wondering if pilots, aircrews are selected for general

Ashton, I'm as live and let live as they come, but the captain should have gone back and ripped the fucking button off his chest.

-drl

Post #110,831

by Ashton

7/22/03 6:16:25 AM

Contentious LRPD: "That's what Brian Boitano'd do!"

Post #110,954

by jb4

7/22/03 5:28:03 PM

At which point,

Mr. Gilmore, having been assaulted and with the full force and fury of both his rights and the law, should have pummeled the pilot unto a bloody pulp!

What the fuck is wrong with you, Ross?

jb4
The difference between Confidence and Ego is that Confidence has respect, while Ego does not.
Candyce Burns (my wife)

Post #110,965

by hnick

7/22/03 6:15:14 PM

At a guess

I would suspect that he is kinda sorta pissed about additional delays, annoyances, and general pains in the collective ass of all the fliers who have to put up with idiocy in the name of security. The guy's egoboo cost 300 people the time to turn around and put the shithead off the plane.
None of us knows what the requirements for flight personel were for such things.
The guy could have removed his pin, having made his point to all the people who have no power to change policy, or kept it with the same result.
Any possible value of his statement was wasted. The movers and shakers could not care less. The staff will continue to do what is on the checklist. 300 people are late elsewhere and probably would like to see his testicles braised while still attached.
The stupidity of 'security' has to be moderated. It is totaly out of hand. My wife is traveling, and yesterday the idiots opened her check-through flight bag and the makeup kit inside to conficate cuticle scissors.
The guy's heart may be in the right place, but IMO his head is up his ass.

Post #110,967

by Ashton

7/22/03 6:34:11 PM

Well, Hugh - that is indeed the pragmatic approach.

It's the decent, the honourable, the Murican Thing to do.
And if everyone behaves that way and with those priorities, indefinitely.. why -

[already said too variously and too often to take YAN stab]

Let's (not-)vote for perfect efficiency in all things - homogenized beats Pasteurized. One Size of conformity Fits All. Don't Rock the Boat. Gestures are Futile. It's All Been Decided and There's Nothing *You* Can Do.

..in 3/4 time with syncopation. {No arpeggios allowed}

Ashton

Post #111,148

by hnick

7/23/03 1:23:28 PM

Seems sort of boolean to come from you

Fight every for any and every cause fearlessly and ferociously until success or death, or become one of the sheep?

What? No sense of proportion? No picking of battles, people, or places?

As others have pointed out, this appears to be primarily one person\ufffds egocentric crusade. The end result, travel without government tyranny, is admirable. The means are questionable. Suing in court seems reasonable, more so if it works. Irritating the drones is pointless, unless the intent is to get molested, providing more grist for the court, in which case few want to sit next to a doof with a martyrdom complex. If the point is to air his opinion, he could have taken the badge off, having made his point.

It seems to me that enough of the populace supports the stupidity of this ineffectual \ufffdsecurity\ufffd to make it difficult to get rid of it anytime soon. Check Nightowl\ufffds views on the subject. She is probably not unique. Most of the population has not yet figured out that the chances of being killed on the highway getting to the airport are much greater than the chances of being killed in the air, either by terrorists or accident. So I submit that it is better to pick the time, place, and targets that make sense. To be sure, it may be more personally satisfying to get a plane turned around. Hell, blow a couple planes up in protest; that\ufffdll really get you talked about. It won\ufffdt, however, do the cause any good.

Letters to the editor can change minds over time. Likewise letters to beltway denizens. Figure out who is the worst offenders and organize boycotts. The downside is that it will take time and people. If the vast majority want stupid security measures, badges and personal protest are not going to be effective. It may be counterproductive. Of the 300 people on that plane, probably ~300 think the doof with the badge is a total asshole. Had he been a little more politic, a fraction of those might have considered point of the badge and been a little more receptive to the next overture elsewhere.

Just my .02
Hugh _{who no longer feels you have to use a brick all the time}

Post #111,167

by Ashton

7/23/03 5:11:22 PM

OW!___rilly know how to Hurt a Guy :(

Boolean non-thought.. Moi? Ummm mea culpa, but only a tad.

On further reflection on this guy's personality and the perspective you are raising: I have to mostly agree about the "choosing your venue". I don't buy the "self-promotion of some cockamamie article featuring The Pin and The Guy" as a straw-man to impugn his character. Hey, call him a Promoter and it's == SOB. Cheap Rush-type quip.

I suspect (too) that he may well be the sort of Me-Me-Me narcissist who will countenance no rebuttal to WTF he deems Important. Accent on the suspect... But re your 300/300 I might imagine 275/300 - for tarring & feathering him:

The 25 (I can write my own stats too) may well be as fed up with the juvenile antics of petty 'guard' satraps as is Mr. Pin, but lack the guts to either do or say anything, ever. Of the 275 though: how many are Pissed 100% for the simple (identical-Me-Me-Me) reason: I Am Being Inconvenienced! [This should Never happen To Me!]

Hindsight then.. yes, had he (even ceremoniously) simply removed The Pin and sat down - the 25 might have been heartened towards some similar consequence-free display in future. The Pin does indeed go to the core of the matter - We ARE all "assumed to be Terrorists til we sorta PROVE we aren't"

..by exhibiting docility in the face of massive encroachment upon ordinary Citizen Rights - by purely ceremonial confiscation of trivial things, as would be laughable in any piece of fiction.

So I conclude that he was 'RIGHT' -- right up-to some debatable point where an honorable cave would demonstrate a modicum of perspective, that er so-rare "scale and relativity" Thing. 20/20, as always.

I hope his suit is semi-effective. Today I guess that means -- garners a bit of yes! Publicity, so as to awaken a few more of the snoozing consumers of Airline & Admin Arrogance.. the ones who pay for this 'service'.

That's the best I can culpa on this one ;-)

Ashton

Post #110,984

7/22/03 7:59:04 PM

7/22/03 8:00:38 PM

Re: At a guess

It's like those Greenpeace idiots who put people in real danger to make a point. A worthwhile point can be made other ways. When the first Gulf War broke out, I wore a little pin on my cabbie hat with the symbol for Pluto painted on it. No one knew what the hell it meant but it didn't scare anyone.

People who look Semitic should just get used to being super-scrutinized in the air. They asked for it.

-drl

Edited by deSitter July 22, 2003, 08:00:38 PM EDT

Expand All History

Post #111,101

7/23/03 9:48:50 AM

Please tell me that's just flame bait.

[Emphasis Mine]

People who look Semitic should just get used to being super-scrutinized in the air. They asked for it.

You can't be serious. You're trolling, right?

bcnu,
Mikem

The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.

- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"

Post #111,103

7/23/03 9:55:43 AM

Re: Please tell me that's just flame bait.

No, why should I troll?

The people who are the most dangerous are from a very specific part of the world with very specific ethnography. This is helpful in identifying people who might wish to crash airliners into tall buildings, and should be used, the way a bird knows on sight not to eat certain kinds of nasty tasting bugs. I don't see the point in depriving ourselves of the use of sight in defending ourselves.

-drl

Post #111,113

by inthane-chan

7/23/03 10:32:46 AM

Huh, didn't know that Timothy McVeigh looked Semitic...

Post #111,114

7/23/03 10:37:09 AM

He doesn't!

Because he's not! Wow!

But, if we need to profile Bubba, we'll profile Bubba.

Sorry, TFPC doesn't help here.

-drl

Post #111,115

by inthane-chan

7/23/03 10:38:55 AM

Well, that's the problem.

Count all the bombs set off in the U.S. by Bubba, and then count all the bombs set off in the U.S. by Al Habib.

I'm pretty certain Bubba outnumbers Al Habib by a bit.

Let's round up all the rednecks and ship them to camp X-Ray! Woo!

And though you hold the keys to ruin of everything I see/With every prison blown to dust, my enemies walk free/Though all the kingdoms turn to sand and fall into the sea/ I'm mad about you I'm mad about you

Post #111,119

7/23/03 10:50:10 AM

Re: Well, that's the problem.

When the country is so fscked that the anonymous Bubba presents a real issue, then why worry? It's done for. But, if I can readily and certainly identify someone who might be a danger by his citizenship and ethnic group, why should I not use the information? Anyone who is a citizen of Saudi Arabia and who wants to board a US jetliner should be all but turned inside out before hand. I'd even restrict their flight options to a few routes at specific times. I'd make no attempt to accomodate them or make them feel good. The message should be - you're from a place that we just can't trust - live with it or go home and make it trustworthy.

"To all our Semitic customers: We're sorry for the inconvenience - why not go home, clean up your millenium-old disputes, act like civilized adults, and then we can dispense with this unpleasantness? Whaddya say?"

(def Semites: A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians.)

-drl

Post #111,195

7/23/03 9:16:53 PM

Re: Well, that's the problem.

I should also point out my STRENUOUS OBJECTION to any form of computer scanning of people. This should remain a common sense decision based on intuitive factors and basic sane assumptions about who would be up to no good. I think I'd let dogs pick out the bad guys at the gate.

I'm not so much interested in who is doing what, as I am in seeing that Justice and Common Sense go hand in hand. One of my assumptions is that a just country is a secure country, because it need not be embarrased by its ideals.

-drl

Post #111,118

7/23/03 10:50:03 AM

Re: Huh, didn't know that Timothy McVeigh looked Semitic...

Thanks, my thoughts exactly. :)

Nightowl >8#

"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!"

Comment by Nightowl

Post #111,117

7/23/03 10:50:00 AM

They asked for it? How? by being the wrong color?

All of them, Everywhere. Right, Ross?

Nuke'em all. After all, they had the gall to have the skin color of our latest enemies. That about it?

Am beginning to understand your reverence for the Old South.

Post #111,121

7/23/03 10:53:17 AM

Nope - by being from the wrong part of Earth

..where ongoing and congenital insanity over non-issues like who is Chosen and who is Righteous, has created an unlivable situation from them, which they attempt to export to us.

In a way, it's fortunate that they are so easily identified. Profiling Bubba would be orders of magnitude harder.

-drl

Post #111,123

7/23/03 11:00:22 AM

Are you reading as you're typing?

"They" should be treated differently because "They" come from races not as pure as ours. See, they asked for it.

You cannot tell me the above couple of sentences are much removed from your expressed view.

Post #111,124

7/23/03 11:04:28 AM

Re: Are you reading as you're typing?

I wish they had 7 eyes so they'd be easier to spot. Or they were all blanched-white redheads from the north of Ireland. This has nothing to do with what race is better (an idiotic question) - it has to do with spotting possible bad people from bad lands. You can't have TLC security. And I'm sick of being searched at random because some fools across the world can't get their minds right.

-drl

Post #111,599

by mhuber

7/26/03 9:22:38 PM

Civilization and life

3000 dead - hell, even if it's once a year - is a pittance to pay for being the kind of country we used to try to be. Even if one of those 3000 is me.

The great Republic or Federation cost quite a bit more than 3000 lives to build. I'm downright embarrased - not before the French or anybody, before God and myself and the lunatics who designed the Republic or Federation in the first place - to be a 21st Century American, ready to surrender it all because we are scared of two-bit terrorists. Oooh, we aren't immune from attack. Anybody who's been off this continent - or on the parts where English isn't spoken much - for more than two weeks at a stretch knew that all along.

We have no guts anymore. Can't risk our own lives for anything important. Can't risk feeling pain or fear or guilt or lack of closure.

Whining about a couple of dead soldiers per day. Home of the brave my ass. One soldier with a stubbed toe for this particular farce is too many, but if it were a war worth fighting, it would be a war worth dying in. Can't deal with our people dying? Don't get into wars.

----
Sometime you the windshield, sometime you the bug, sometime you the driver and you turn on the windshield washer and keep going.

Post #111,616

by Ashton

7/27/03 7:12:59 AM

It does come down to that, doesn't it.

No guts, no historical perspective - no Aims: except personal and Corporate cupidity. No 'Gods' either - only the $$ and that lip-service on Sundays - mainly preying: "Dear Father: Please Let Us Win, Like Always." (But if 'We" can't - then Let Me Win, OK?)

Because the illiteracy is matched by innumeracy: your "3000" comparison would be doomed to incomprehension. The massive overreaction fits the overall pattern of dumbth. No?

What % of the US population could calculate the "percentage" which 3K might be: of 280,000,000 - and get the decimal point within an order of magnitude? OK - TWO orders of magnitude? (What % would know what "an order of magnitude" is?) Are we already Kornbluth's Marching Morons - it seems we're a nuke's-throw away from complete disconnect with humankind. Contrast 'US' with the Brits in the Underground stations during the Blitz. bin-L appears to know our national character to a T.

Amazing the mind's access to everything ever seen, read, experienced - all 'plots' - real and imagined. Beats the shit outta digital- funnel- bubble- or Bubba- 'sorts'! My re-collection tells me:

The US vox populi is seen now by all: to have abandoned even the usual pretense (for display) of all that civics stuff and especially - all that Principle stuff. Has just sat mute, masturbating on consumption (and obsessed only with "raising That back up, higher") - while barely noticing, as a tiny bunch of Neoconmen reversed as much civilization as took 200 yrs. for us to lurch towards (all the while finding it Rilly Hard to kick the formal-slavery habit: now we do it by proxy and digital banking.)
We managed all this in a bit over 900 days!

We are now operating from a very old agenda; one quite familiar to me from my Gramma's time, and from a mindset indistinguishable from her xenophobic hatred, jingoistic Know-nothingism - and the ever-present sanctimony of the religio-bigot. And it's hanging out there as never before, for all to see. I think they have seen, were there any doubts about "whether or not we've Really gone Loony".

The evidence is now indelible: of what Murica is capable of, and of how casually our disinterested consumers, most non-voting - will let Loonies run amok with the power of all those $$ skimmed from across the planet, especially since WW-II. Shrub has officially ordered the New Nukes (with expected minimal mention in the Corp meeja, then or since. I know - I regularly look for refs. It's a dead 'issue' - despite the truly ominous implications to anyone with a third of a working brain.)

Some of this may be reversible, depending on the dice throw of next few months. Decades to atone for the rest? but nobody will ever forget our pewling panic and the massive hypocrisy - even at home. I doubt anyone will have failed to notice too, that the Americans they may have met travelling, in the past: are not running the place. They now have an idea who Is. (Even if many of us haven't noticed even that - yet.)

Maybe we'll squeak through, house-clean in the nick of time? Crap shoot.

Condolences,

Ashton

Post #111,645

by a6l6e6x

7/27/03 6:50:51 PM

Re: no historical perspective

Only last night, talked about this with my brother. He was in the US Air Force stationed in Korea in 1962. He had visited [link|http://www.gluckman.com/NKBorder.html|"peace village"] at Panmunjom, North Korea three times. His fellow airmen were surprised to learn from him that there had been a war there less than 10 years prior. It's not just "how soon they forget", it's "they never had a fricken idea".

The 50th anniversary of the armistice has just been celebrated.

Alex

A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul. -- George Bernard Shaw

Post #111,650

by Arkadiy

7/27/03 8:55:39 PM

People who think 2 lives per day is too many

happen to also think this war was not worth fighting. Not the way it was fought, anyway.

--

Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them.

--Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum

Post #111,179

by jb4

7/23/03 6:32:05 PM

Hugh, the asshole in this thing was the PILOT

And those three hundred peopel wh were late wer late because a Hamfisted, power-intoxicated ex-military, my-country-wrong-or-wronger, hasn't had a civics less in over 3 decades shitferbrains couldn't understand that buttons don't hijack planes.

jb4
The difference between Confidence and Ego is that Confidence has respect, while Ego does not.
Candyce Burns (my wife)

Post #111,190

7/23/03 8:58:49 PM

Utterly wrong

These guys follow the script. You think they wanted to go back?

When the FA reports an unruly passenger, a script kicks in.

Ex-military - even more likely to follow the script. Individuality not needed, merited, or required.

-drl

Post #111,218

by Ashton

7/24/03 3:39:45 AM

Brains, common sense are always useful.

Post #111,224

by hnick

7/24/03 7:25:53 AM

Absolutely - might also be a firing offense though

I really have no idea what the federal/airline 'guidelines' are for such.
It is possible the pilot was just being an asshole.
It is also possible that he was risking his career if he did not turn the plane around. I can't imagine that he wanted the hassle of probable paperwork, delays and such.
It is probable that the reality is somewhere in the middle.

I think that it is a sad sign of our times that common sense/intelligent action are buried under regulations to keep the lawyers/politicos at bay. It's time to dig out the Harlan Ellison and re-read 'Repent Harlequin, Said the Ticktock Man'. It's becoming more appropriate every day.

Hugh

Post #111,307

by jb4

7/24/03 4:51:24 PM

And, increasingly, conspicuous by their absence!

jb4
The difference between Confidence and Ego is that Confidence has respect, while Ego does not.
Candyce Burns (my wife)

Post #110,953

by jb4

7/22/03 5:25:50 PM

Most commercial pilots are former military

And that, my dear Ashton, should be all I need to say by way of explanation!

jb4
The difference between Confidence and Ego is that Confidence has respect, while Ego does not.
Candyce Burns (my wife)

Post #110,968

by Ashton

7/22/03 6:51:34 PM

Explanation tested: found complete. Danke.

Post #110,776

7/21/03 8:28:51 PM

Am sympathetic, but there is a flaw.

(And here I had thought they were a common carrier, obliged to carry anyone who'll pay the fare, without discrimination.)

The Pilot in Command (PIC) of any flight can cancel the flight or remove any passenger he wants. That is entirely at his discretion and cannot be questioned. I don't think United "lost" its case, I think they settled the case so as not to generate any more bad publicity. I will have to check that, though, or if some one here knows me to be in the wrong, a link would be appreciated.

Post #110,784

7/21/03 9:22:19 PM

7/22/03 9:56:02 PM

Oh come on.

A better subject line might be "Man kicked off plane for being an inconsiderate asshole". He wasn't refused passage till he refused to remove the stupid pin. He calls it political speech but from what I read, it was more in the nature of a self promoting advertisement.

He can make any "political" statement he wants. A business can refuse to serve him if that statement interferes in any way with the business. Making the help nervous or uncomfortable can interfere with the business.

Like this: Some actor in a play titled "The Waitress Rapist" wears a pin with that wording to a bar after rehearsals.... Do I need to continue?

Edit: replaced "named" with "titled" in last sentance.

-----------------------------------------
[link|http://www.talion.com/questionw.html|?W]
Where were you in 72?

Edited by Silverlock July 22, 2003, 09:56:02 PM EDT

Expand All History

Post #110,786

by Ashton

7/21/03 9:35:07 PM

OK - how about '?W' buttons then.. or 'Impeach Bush' ?

Post #110,789

7/21/03 10:06:04 PM

Acting obtuse?

It's not a role that suits you.

Or are you discounting that I said this -

He calls it political speech but from what I read, it was more in the nature of a self promoting advertisement.

I thought that was pretty clear.

Given that, if the same circumstances occurred and his pin was as you suggest, *then* I would have a problem.

Not in this case.

-----------------------------------------
[link|http://www.talion.com/questionw.html|?W]
Where were you in 72?

Post #110,829

by Ashton

7/22/03 6:07:19 AM

It's like crazy Aunt Martha

..nobody's supposed to Notice she's in the corner, cutting up the furniture and drooling.

The "Terrorist" bugaboo has become the Anything Goes mantra for - ANY Assholish thing (including confiscation of nail clippers!) wink-wink nudge-nudge. All to give the illusion of Doing Something, however bizarrely irrelevant to any actual Terrorist Plot 2003 remotely capable of succeeding within a plane full of people [other than quadriplegics] who are -

WELL FUCKING MINUTELY-AWARE OF 9/11 D'Oh

So this guy merely states the Obvious on his button: We Are Presumed Terrorists First and Treated As Such\ufffd YES, Murican *transportation* guardians are indeed behaving with arrant stupidity -- but we aren't supposed to say so:

Shaking down 80 yo grandmothers (fat chance with a BOX full of nailclippers or BOX-knives.) Look a bit Semitic ? Er are you Bluish, Sir? You make our WASP Captain nervous - see, he lives in a Gated Community and you *coloreds* make him a bit unbalanced. You know how it is.. He used to live in the South before them uppity.. so, if he's nervous, well - Get Your Ass off this Murican Conveyance, you fucking nervous-making unMurican wog.

It's racist, it's Silly; it brings out the worst in the fear-besotted but brain deficient - and tries to glorify the whole inane schmeer. Worst of all - it's now so often Simply Stupid. A 'sharp' fucking Medal of Honor: shall I throw it in with the nail clippers, sir? Sir? Sir!

Pshaw.
Herd hysteria as only Muricans can wallow in to such extremes. (while feeling Good about our 'Vigilance' - that which is so lacking in imagination as to be missing much more Likely approaches, while rote looking for exact replays)

Yada & Yada. If that's obtuse: I'm It. But WTF - fly Loony Tunes if you must. Til the mere Spam-in-a-Can packaging and disdain for paying customers reduces all flights to the occasional necessity and those Bizness/Golf conference things. As they drop out one at a time. (You think I'm the only one who finds our so-typical overreaction ludicrous?)

I'll walk or drive - until we commence the strip searches | drive naked before entering the Interstate. 3 years in one of those new prisons, our main construction industry of recent years - for "evasion with a loincloth" (Probably in Texas first, land of Induhvidual Rights - right?)

Ashton
meanwhile - SSShhhhhhh..
What Aunt Martha?

Post #110,788

7/21/03 9:57:53 PM

Huh?

A business can refuse to serve him if that statement interferes in any way with the business. Making the help nervous or uncomfortable can interfere with the business.

What world do you live in?

Hmm.

Interacial couples make me uncomfortable. I refuse to serve them.
Does that work for you?

How about: Them damn Jews got some mighty strange noses. They give me the willies. You wear are Star of David into my restaurant and I'll kick you out.

Oh, I know!
My favorite button:
You can help wipe out COBOL in your lifetime!
That should get me refused service from all major companies. They all use it for their systems, right? And it MUST make a few COBOL programmers uncomfortable.

Self promotion? Nothing there on that. It merely triggers a discussion for those who wish to ask about it, and then he can express his views.

Post #110,790

7/21/03 10:26:23 PM

You equating this with discrimination?

How so? Race, Religion, what? A sense of proportion might not be useless here.

However, I will give you that my wording as to a business' right to refuse was too strong. There are limits. This does not fall within those. His actions led to this all-too-predictable result.

You disagree that it was self promotion. I think it is. From the author's description of the events-

The button, which was created by political activist Emi Koyama, says "Suspected Terrorist". Large images of the button and I appear in the cover story of Reason Magazine this month, and the story is entitled "Suspected Terrorist".

-----------------------------------------
[link|http://www.talion.com/questionw.html|?W]
Where were you in 72?

Post #110,956

by jb4

7/22/03 5:34:20 PM

Re: You equating this with discrimination?

Yes.

Discrimination against the self-promoting (i.e. every Repo "entrepreneur" in the world).

Discrimination against those willing (and/or able) to take advantage of 1st amendment rights

Discrimination against those who will not bleat.

Discrimination against those who truly believe they are suspected terrorists.

Etc.

jb4
The difference between Confidence and Ego is that Confidence has respect, while Ego does not.
Candyce Burns (my wife)

Post #111,005

7/22/03 9:21:26 PM

All riiiighty then.

.... . . he said in a pet detective tone.

/sarcasm

Point made? If not, read on.

Anyone have a link to the pertinant laws? I'll go with this till then-

These laws prohibit discrimination on the basis of race, color, and national origin, sex, disability, and on the basis of age.

From [link|http://www.ed.gov/offices/OCR/know.html|here]. What protected class does this guy fall into? I don't see anything that makes me think inconsiderate, insensitive, self-important, self promoting assholes gain the protection of the law against discrimination.

Best interpretation: He's fighting in the only way he can imagine for what he believes.

I think his imagination is lacking.

-----------------------------------------
[link|http://www.talion.com/questionw.html|?W]
Where were you in 72?

Post #111,181

by jb4

7/23/03 6:44:09 PM

One's lack of imagination is not criminal...

...at least it shouldn't be (but Ashcroft is the AG, so what do I know).

Look, there is no law against being a smartass, nor is there a law, rule, directive, alert, suggestion, etc. that states that wearing a pin that might offend the Puritanical, might-makes-right "sensibilities of some former fighter jockey is prima-facie grounds for ejection from a commercial jet airliner.

And Ghod help us all if there ever is such a law, rule, directive, alert, suggestion, etc.

jb4
The difference between Confidence and Ego is that Confidence has respect, while Ego does not.
Candyce Burns (my wife)

Post #110,791

by boxley

7/21/03 10:49:37 PM

In Joisey, (where else) two dreadlocked fellers

were refused entrance to a bar saying dreadlocks were smelly and annoying.
thanx,
bill

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

Post #110,802

7/21/03 11:26:40 PM

..and pull your pants up!

-drl

Post #110,969

by Ashton

7/22/03 6:53:06 PM

7/22/03 11:08:34 PM

.. and cut off that sissy ponytail - might conceal Stuff

Edited by Ashton July 22, 2003, 11:08:34 PM EDT

Expand All History

Post #110,794

7/21/03 10:57:19 PM

I thought you supported the Dixie Chicks?

[link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=98524|Post #98524]

Darrell Spice, Jr.                      [link|http://www.spiceware.org/cgi-bin/spa.pl?album=./Artistic%20Overpass|Artistic Overpass]\n[link|http://www.spiceware.org/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore

Post #110,830

by Ashton

7/22/03 6:12:17 AM

Yeah, me too - but then

we're all allowed to make a Bad Call once in a while. Hell, with Shrub's propaganda every day, Ashcroft's simpering nude-stachoo aversions.. it's awonder that more people aren't just shooting up the workplace -- emulatin what the Neoconmen have planned for.. lots o' them Uppity little countries that don't Vote Repo.

;-)

Post #110,850

7/22/03 8:52:16 AM

Huh?

Can you point out the relevance for me? I must be thick. I don't see how the situations are at all comparable.

-----------------------------------------
[link|http://www.talion.com/questionw.html|?W]
Where were you in 72?

Post #110,855

7/22/03 9:38:46 AM

Re: Huh?

A business can refuse to serve him if that statement interferes in any way with the business.

You're saying a business can do what they need to do to make sure someone's actions "don't interfer with business" - yet, said it was wrong for the radio stations to not play the Dixie Chicks when the [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=101138|business' listeners said they didn't want to hear them].

Darrell Spice, Jr.                      [link|http://www.spiceware.org/cgi-bin/spa.pl?album=./Artistic%20Overpass|Artistic Overpass]\n[link|http://www.spiceware.org/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore

Post #110,867

7/22/03 10:38:39 AM

You quote yourself

And still fail to make your case. An organ for entertainment just doesn't seem to compare with a plane full of passengers to me.

Once again, point out where these are comparable. So far, I don't see it.

-----------------------------------------
[link|http://www.talion.com/questionw.html|?W]
Where were you in 72?

Post #110,875

7/22/03 10:52:14 AM

I refer to an article

that's no longer online, so linked to my post with the relative quotes.

Once again, point out where these are comparable. So far, I don't see it.

Can a business decline to conduct business with someone else based on their political speach? In the two instances you're on opposite sides.

Darrell Spice, Jr.                      [link|http://www.spiceware.org/cgi-bin/spa.pl?album=./Artistic%20Overpass|Artistic Overpass]\n[link|http://www.spiceware.org/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore

Post #110,879

7/22/03 11:04:12 AM

One more time.

Very slowly.

IMO, It's. Not. Political. Speech.

It's self promotion for a magazine article where his picture is on the cover along with the button. The button created (from what I read) to promote the article.

That's been my point all along. I don't agree that this was political speech. You can argue with that all day long. What you can't do is say I'm arguing opposite sides. Unless, of course, you intentionally ignore my oft-repeated statement that I regard this as a self promotional advertisement.

-----------------------------------------
[link|http://www.talion.com/questionw.html|?W]
Where were you in 72?

Post #110,880

7/22/03 11:16:24 AM

Re: One more time.

Very slowly.

IMO, It's. Not. Political. Speech.

It's self promotion for a magazine article where his picture is on the cover along with the button. The button created (from what I read) to promote the article.

That's been my point all along. I don't agree that this was political speech. You can argue with that all day long. What you can't do is say I'm arguing opposite sides. Unless, of course, you intentionally ignore my oft-repeated statement that I regard this as a self promotional advertisement.

I have REALLY tried to stay out of this, but I have to stand up here and say I see what Silverlock is saying. I don't see it as a political statement either. And what's worse really, is if the man had simply removed the button when asked, he would have been fine. Just like we hand over our tweezers and nail clippers and everything else. But he had to make a stink over it, which is why there is even a problem in the first place.

I understand that some of the measures taken seem silly, but honestly, if we all cooperated more, the lines would go faster, the security would be more efficient, and hopefully, the goal intended, which is to make air travel safer, would be achieved.

Nightowl >8#

(so extremely glad I do NOT fly.)

"Only dead fish swim with the stream."
Linda Ellerbee

Post #110,884

by drewk

7/22/03 11:45:00 AM

No, no and no

I don't see it as a political statement either.

The point of overtly polictical speech is for it to be noticed. That necessarily involves drawing attention to yourself. So it can involve some self promotion. Does this mean that campaign commercials are not political speech, because they are explicitly promoting themselves?

And what's worse really, is if the man had simply removed the button when asked, he would have been fine.

So he'd have been fine if he simply allowed himself to be censored. Umm, I believe that was his point.

Just like we hand over our tweezers and nail clippers and everything else.

Again, that was his point. That we are allowing ourselves to be bullied, cowed, searched, and have our property confiscated. These are the things suspects are subjected to.

But he had to make a stink over it, which is why there is even a problem in the first place.

No, there is a problem in the first place because we are all being treated as suspects.

I understand that some of the measures taken seem silly,

Not seem: are.

but honestly, if we all cooperated more, the lines would go faster, the security would be more efficient, and hopefully, the goal intended, which is to make air travel safer, would be achieved.

The goal is to convince people "Something Is Being Done". In your case, at least, it seems to be working.

===

Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.

Post #110,886

7/22/03 11:53:55 AM

Re: No, no and no

Drewk wrote:>>The goal is to convince people "Something Is Being Done". In your case, at least, it seems to be working.<<

All I know is that we haven't had another hijacking, or another plane flown into a major US building since 9/11/01, and that tells me they must be doing something right.

Nightowl >8#

P.S. Sorry Scott, I tried quoting this properly four times, and still had unmatched something or other, so I gave up and did it this way.

"Only dead fish swim with the stream."
Linda Ellerbee

Post #110,899

by boxley

7/22/03 12:31:17 PM

do you moo when you go to the airport?

I suppose cattle prods would move folks along more efficiently and faster. My question is this, if I am a terrorist planning a strike is false ID a problem? No. Is getting a weapon abourd a plane a problem? No. The problem that is being solved is to disallow people to trade tickets to each other without the airlines making a buck. That is the problem being solved here. Intimidation of passengers to allow any indignity just to be able to board that plane. That is being solved so well the airlines are failing. These things have nothing to do with safety, thwy have to do with control. I suppose you think gun registration is safer also.
thanx,
bill

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

Post #110,900

7/22/03 12:36:00 PM

7/22/03 12:36:33 PM

Re: do you moo when you go to the airport?

I suppose cattle prods would move folks along more efficiently and faster. My question is this, if I am a terrorist planning a strike is false ID a problem? No. Is getting a weapon abourd a plane a problem? No. The problem that is being solved is to disallow people to trade tickets to each other without the airlines making a buck. That is the problem being solved here. Intimidation of passengers to allow any indignity just to be able to board that plane. That is being solved so well the airlines are failing. These things have nothing to do with safety, thwy have to do with control. I suppose you think gun registration is safer also.

Hmm, well, I don't go to the airport much, except on occasion to pick someone up, so I don't need to moo. Mostly I hoot. ;)

I don't know about gun registration, I think it's good to be able to track a weapon when it killed someone, but on the other hand, I don't know that it truly makes us safer from being killed.

Nightowl >8#

"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!"

Comment by Nightowl

Edited by Nightowl July 22, 2003, 12:36:33 PM EDT

Expand All History

Post #110,926

by drewk

7/22/03 3:12:06 PM

I also haven't been trampled by any elephants since 9/11

I guess those airport security measures are working really well.

What?

You say the airport security measures have nothing whatsoever to do with my not getting trampled by an elephant?

But it hasn't happened since they started those security procedures.

Get it?

===

Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.

Post #110,960

by jb4

7/22/03 5:53:18 PM

ROFL!

jb4
The difference between Confidence and Ego is that Confidence has respect, while Ego does not.
Candyce Burns (my wife)

Post #111,014

7/22/03 10:29:29 PM

Re: I also haven't been trampled by any elephants since 9/11

I guess those airport security measures are working really well.

What?

You say the airport security measures have nothing whatsoever to do with my not getting trampled by an elephant?

But it hasn't happened since they started those security procedures.

Get it?

Honestly? No I don't get it. Because as I tried to explain in my previous post, I was afraid of crashing airplanes after 9/11. I haven't been given reason to be afraid of elephants trampling me, like I was given reason to be afraid of planes crashing into buildings.

Get it?

Nightowl >8#

Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.

"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!"

Comment by Nightowl

Post #111,019

by boxley

7/22/03 10:48:29 PM

Why are you afraid of crashing Airplanes?

Some nutbag stands up screaming Allah is going to kill us all no one is going to wait around to have the pilot handle it. He/She is going to be killed by
the women who's husband is cheating on her and she knows it
the guy whose back has been kicked by a little kid 3 thousand times in the last minute
the guy jammed between 2 300 pounders
the lady whose nipple was examined with hoots and grunts by dumass securityt folks
the granny who only wants to get to see her grandkids one more time
me who has a legitimate reason to murder someone with their bare handsbecause I was was delayed for 16 hrs due to fuckwits who run security.
guess what,
plane lands safely. terrorist might live long nough for tial.
thanx,
bill

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

Post #111,026

7/22/03 11:07:17 PM

Re: Why are you afraid of crashing Airplanes?

Well, I didn't understand most of your post or why it was relevant, sorry.

But I was afraid of airplanes crashing into my house because they crashed into the Twin Towers. Didn't matter how illogical it was that a plane would choose my house to crash into, nonetheless, that is where my fears after 9/11 manifested themselves.

Since most of your post talked about the people on the plane that would crash, I don't know how it applies to me, sorry. I was simply afraid of one crashing into my house.

Nightowl >8#

"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!"

Comment by Nightowl

Post #111,030

by Another Scott

7/22/03 11:17:47 PM

Boxish to English translation.

"Why are you concerned about someone hijacking a plane and crashing it into a building? Since 9/11, if someone attempts to hijack a plane, no passenger is going to sit idly by and let the pilot and crew handle the situation. The hijacker would be attacked by the angry passengers. If the hijacker is lucky, he or she might survive the ordeal long enough to stand trial."

Thus (by my inference of boxley's post), you're safer now than you were before 9/11 due to increased vigilance by your fellow passengers - not due to the actions or statements by Department of Homeland Security.

HTH.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #111,040

7/22/03 11:59:22 PM

Re: Boxish to English translation.

Thus (by my inference of boxley's post), you're safer now than you were before 9/11 due to increased vigilance by your fellow passengers - not due to the actions or statements by Department of Homeland Security.

I agree Scott, the passengers who stop the hijackers are also part of the "placebo" concept. Basically, knowing anything whatsoever is being done to change the circumstances which led to 9/11 helps to ease my mind.

And just for a moment, think in terms of the hijackers. Maybe they are also deterred not only by the security measures in place, but also the fact that now they might have to deal with angry passengers bent on stopping them. It all adds up one piece at a time to be one more protective measure.

Nightowl >8#

"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!"

Comment by Nightowl

Post #111,033

by boxley

7/22/03 11:22:00 PM

Well do you cower in fear that cars, and cows crash into

your house? Everytime you here a siren do you crawl under the bed in case it is chasing a criminal into your abode? When you here strange noises do you quickly grab a shotgun, jack a shell into the chamber and start hunting strangers?
Fear is a good thing, it keeps us alive. Irrational fear invoked by strange events needs to be analysed and statistically evaluated as rational or hysteria. Your chances of a plane landing on your house is much greaater by pilots who suffer a heart attack in a small plane than terrorists aiming at you. So please explain why your irrational fear of terrorists require me to kiss some govt flunkies ass to get where I am going. Not picking on you, just trying to have you think unintended consequences.
thanx,
bill

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

Post #111,044

7/23/03 12:12:50 AM

Re: Well do you cower in fear that cars, and cows crash into

your house? Everytime you here a siren do you crawl under the bed in case it is chasing a criminal into your abode? When you here strange noises do you quickly grab a shotgun, jack a shell into the chamber and start hunting strangers?

Do you want an honest answer, because you might not like it. Yes, sirens make me jump. Loud cars make me jump. I don't crawl under the bed, but my heart pounds. I don't own a gun, but if I hear a noise, I check it out.

I was taught to be afraid, which is a bad thing. My father moved here to St. Louis from a country town where you threw your front door open and had no fear of your neighbors or anything else. He was so paranoid upon moving here he promptly instilled fear in his children based on his own fear. He didn't mean to, and I know that now, but I've fought against it for years, only making little breakthroughs and thinking I've won, to have something else new take me back two steps.

Fear is a good thing, it keeps us alive. Irrational fear invoked by strange events needs to be analysed and statistically evaluated as rational or hysteria. Your chances of a plane landing on your house is much greaater by pilots who suffer a heart attack in a small plane than terrorists aiming at you. So please explain why your irrational fear of terrorists require me to kiss some govt flunkies ass to get where I am going. Not picking on you, just trying to have you think unintended consequences.

Fear is a good thing if it is in moderation, and not in the form of panic. I agree there. I also know my fear of a plane crashing into my house was irrational. I stated that. I also dealt with my counselor about it in great detail. Unfortunately, it was a major thing, 9/11 and it invoked many irrational fears in many people, not just me. I don't require you to do anything, I simply said the extra security measures give me some degree of comfort.

I know you aren't picking on me, I know you want me to think about it. But I have. I thought about planes, planes crashing, air safety, 9/11 for months and months before I was finally able to get past it and live normally. Maybe I have too much trust in the people who are there to protect us, but I'd rather trust them than fear them, if that makes any sense.

I deal with my fears, every day, of many things. And I've come a long way, really, in some of them. But the trauma of 9/11 still remains one of the worst things I've encountered, and seen and lived through, and I suspect it always will, unless I live to see something inherently worse.

Nightowl >8#

"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!"

Comment by Nightowl

Post #110,959

by jb4

7/22/03 5:52:01 PM

You have an interesting sense of history

All I know is that we haven't had another hijacking, or another plane flown into a major US building since 9/11/01, and that tells me they must be doing something right.

Hoo-fuckin-ray, no hijacking in about one-and-a-half-years in the US. Of course, we didn't have a hijacking in the US for at least that long in the US before 11Sep01 (I don't have the exact numbers, but I'm sure the collective memory of the LRPD can come up with the exact facts with several links to back it up...its a wonderful toy!).

So what's yer point? That sheep prevent hijackings?

jb4
The difference between Confidence and Ego is that Confidence has respect, while Ego does not.
Candyce Burns (my wife)

Post #111,013

7/22/03 10:26:12 PM

Re: You have an interesting sense of history

Hoo-fuckin-ray, no hijacking in about one-and-a-half-years in the US. Of course, we didn't have a hijacking in the US for at least that long in the US before 11Sep01 (I don't have the exact numbers, but I'm sure the collective memory of the LRPD can come up with the exact facts with several links to back it up...its a wonderful toy!).

So what's yer point? That sheep prevent hijackings?

No, my point is, I guess that I have seen a result. But based on my actual use of the airline industry, I probably have no true basis for deciding anything about it. Bottom line is I don't have the delays and annoyances, because I do not fly. Perhaps if I did fly, I would feel differently.

And I don't know what you mean by sheep, to be honest. But I also believe that any level of comfort that can be gained by the concept of "Someone doing something about the situation" is also based on the feelings of the person getting the comfort.

In my case, I had traumatic nightmares for months after 9/11, afraid that a plane would crash into my house. I know that was an "unreasonable" fear, but nonetheless, that is what 9/11 caused me to deal with. It took me MONTHS before I could stop listening for planes, stop watching for planes, and finally sleep comfortably. And a lot of that comfort was dervived from the measures the airlines and Homeland Security took to protect us.

Maybe it was like a placebo or something, really didn't do anything in particular, but caused me the ability to relax and believe I was safe, regardless.

Nightowl >8#

"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!"

Comment by Nightowl

Post #111,025

by Ashton

7/22/03 11:05:05 PM

Out of the mouths of -

Here you have succinctly summed-up the vast majority of in-place placebos constructed by this Admin:

Maybe it was like a placebo or something, really didn't do anything in particular, but caused me the ability to relax and believe I was safe

An almost brilliant comment, if I do say so - if you indeed understand the implications of what you said. And were you to take the time and attention to examine the PATRIOT Act and a few thousand other words that have entered our vocabulary since 9/11, why then.. just possibly you might find somewhere an association with the word sheep.
Maybe not.

Or to put it more simply, safety? [whatever a 'life' of perfect safety might be, in your ken] VS the appearance-of safety. More would be telling.

Ashton

Post #111,031

7/22/03 11:18:30 PM

Re: Out of the mouths of -

Here you have succinctly summed-up the vast majority of in-place placebos constructed by this Admin:
Maybe it was like a placebo or something, really didn't do anything in particular, but caused me the ability to relax and believe I was safe
An almost brilliant comment, if I do say so - if you indeed understand the implications of what you said. And were you to take the time and attention to examine the PATRIOT Act and a few thousand other words that have entered our vocabulary since 9/11, why then.. just possibly you might find somewhere an association with the word sheep.

Maybe not.

Okay. I know what you mean now. You mean do I follow orders or obey the laws, and the answer is basically, yes. I'm not a person who makes waves often, although I do defend my position when I feel it is being violated or attacked.

I figure the government must know at least better than I, what should be done, when I can't even barely comprehend what all is going on politically.

So yes, in that sense, I'm a sheep and hey, sheep live long happy lives, only giving their wool on occasion, where wolves are hunted down and shot. ;)

Or to put it more simply, safety? [whatever a 'life' of perfect safety might be, in your ken] VS the appearance-of safety. More would be telling.

Okay, you're saying I should not let the appearance of saftey lull me into a false sense of security, and believe me, I don't completely do that. In fact, I am still very nervous at times regarding the events of 9/11. But it still gave me some measure of comfort to know something was being done, just like my security alarm system gives me some measure of comfort that I'm safe in my own house.

Nightowl >8#

"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!"

Comment by Nightowl

Post #111,035

by Ashton

7/22/03 11:31:46 PM

Two words re safe sheep____lamb chops

Post #111,045

7/23/03 12:22:29 AM

Re: Two words re safe sheep____lamb chops

Not always. Some are bred purely for their wool. :)

Nightowl >8#

"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!"

Comment by Nightowl

Post #111,054

7/23/03 12:39:43 AM

Dear God...

Please tell me you don't vote. That would be too depressing to contemplate.

Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.

Post #111,057

7/23/03 12:45:00 AM

Re: Dear God...

Please tell me you don't vote. That would be too depressing to contemplate.

Didn't you read my post to Ashton about that very topic? :)

I rarely vote.

Nightowl >8#

"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!"

Comment by Nightowl

Post #111,062

7/23/03 12:51:49 AM

Re: Dear God...

I am gratified, madame, beyond my power to express this. Believe me to be

very, very cordially yours,

Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.

Post #111,061

7/23/03 12:50:54 AM

Re: Dear God...

And furthermore, sir, why does my one single vote matter so much? My father used to tell me that all the time. I HAD TO VOTE, it was IMPERATIVE. Well, I don't get it. Millions of people vote, and no election I've ever seen that mattered was won by one ballot.

So don't worry about my vote or non-vote. Worry about the millions or thousands or whatever number of people there are that will vote the way you worry about.

Nightowl >8#

"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!"

Comment by Nightowl

Post #111,065

7/23/03 1:01:58 AM

nightowl wonders

"why does my one single vote matter so much?"

Your one single vote matters hardly at all. The votes of millions of equally ill-informed enfranchised residents of this allegedly great land matter a great deal. I don't wish to be unkind, but your social and political observations as I have observed them to date strike me as appallingly naïve, even childlike. I can respect those political adversaries whose arguments, even when I violently disagree with them, give some evidence of rational calculations behind them. Your reasonings, my dear nightowl, would not do credit to a twelve year-old. I do applaud, however, your disinclination to vote.

cordially,

Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.

Post #111,066

7/23/03 1:10:23 AM

Re: nightowl wonders

I don't wish to be unkind, but your social and political observations as I have observed them to date strike me as appallingly naive, even childlike. I can respect those political adversaries whose arguments, even when I violently disagree with them, give some evidence of rational calculations behind them. Your reasonings, my dear nightowl, would not do credit to a twelve year-old. I do applaud, however, your disinclination to vote.

Ok, granted on the political end. I was just never interested in politics, and still am not, and it's very difficult for me to understand. So yes, I'm sure I have about a grade school level of comprehension for that.

As for my social observations, I'm not sure what you mean by that one.

Nightowl >8#

"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!"

Comment by Nightowl

Post #111,182

by jb4

7/23/03 6:57:11 PM

NO... what I meant was...

...that Sheep are willing to be led (actually, "herded" is the operative term) to whatever fate, Macheavelian [sic] or otherwise, that their "leaders" (read: shepherds) lead them into, and will quitely accept their fate without so much as a whimper (except perhaps, at the very end....).

Sheep don't question whether they are being duped, or led down the primrose path, because they feel "safe" when they are being herded somewhere.

Airport "security", as it is being practiced today, is so much handwaving. It has been repeatedly shown to be wastetime, ineffective window-dressing that does nothing to address the real problem of securing the airways against those evil-doers would would use said airways to do evil. Yet you, and so many others, are willing -- indeed eager -- to allow this inneffective handwaving exercise in the name of "heightend security" because you "feel so much safer" now that the Government "is doing something about security".

Sheep!

Get it now?

jb4
The difference between Confidence and Ego is that Confidence has respect, while Ego does not.
Candyce Burns (my wife)

Post #111,189

7/23/03 8:57:07 PM

7/23/03 8:58:18 PM

Re: NO... what I meant was...

...that Sheep are willing to be led (actually, "herded" is the operative term) to whatever fate, Macheavelian [sic] or otherwise, that their "leaders" (read: shepherds) lead them into, and will quitely accept their fate without so much as a whimper (except perhaps, at the very end....).

Sheep don't question whether they are being duped, or led down the primrose path, because they feel "safe" when they are being herded somewhere.

Well then I am most definitely NOT a sheep. If that was the case, I would still be employed today at a job I loved, rather than be a victim of having refused to do something I was told which was immoral and against the policy, and having lost a fight against a major university which ultimately cost me my job, my confidence in employment, and my self-confidence, some of the latter, which i have finally reacquired.

Airport "security", as it is being practiced today, is so much handwaving. It has been repeatedly shown to be wastetime, ineffective window-dressing that does nothing to address the real problem of securing the airways against those evil-doers would would use said airways to do evil. Yet you, and so many others, are willing -- indeed eager -- to allow this inneffective handwaving exercise in the name of "heightend security" because you "feel so much safer" now that the Government "is doing something about security".

I think the only reason I allow it is I have no say on it, am not part of it, do not fly and therefore, never considered it on any serious level. Make sense? I didn't say I did anything to cause it to be, only that knowing it happens gave me a level of comfort. There is a difference in being actively involved in causing something to happen, and simply gaining something from it happening.

Get it now?

Yes, but I still do not consider myself a sheep, based on your first paragraphs here, because I always question anything that directly affects me if I think it's wrong.

Nightowl >8#

"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!"

Comment by Nightowl

Edited by Nightowl July 23, 2003, 08:58:18 PM EDT

Expand All History

Post #111,380

by boxley

7/24/03 11:43:05 PM

AHAH! an almost tenured professor

suspected education when I saw that loverly car you drive.
thanx,
bill

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

Post #111,389

7/25/03 12:11:56 AM

Re: AHAH! an almost tenured professor

suspected education when I saw that loverly car you drive.

Thanks Box. I do adore my car. :) But I was not a professor, was just on my way to becoming a History major...

But I do have a 2 year degree in Communications, Creative Writing. So yes, I'd say I'm fairly educated... just never completed the 4 year thing and may not, don't know.

Nightowl >8#

"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!"

Comment by Nightowl

Post #111,226

by hnick

7/24/03 7:39:37 AM

Retirement package still includes mint jelly...

Post #111,311

by jb4

7/24/03 4:52:49 PM

**chuckle**

jb4
The difference between Confidence and Ego is that Confidence has respect, while Ego does not.
Candyce Burns (my wife)

Post #111,320

by Ashton

7/24/03 5:17:38 PM

Oh You Kid..!______(speak goatish?) 23 Skiddoo

Post #111,499

by tuberculosis

7/25/03 5:35:15 PM

8/21/07 6:03:03 AM

What I know

All I know is that we haven't had another hijacking, or another plane flown into a major US building since 9/11/01, and that tells me they must be doing something right.

We know more than that. For instance, we know that the technique used to hijack the airplanes no longer works once people have expanded their sphere of possible outcomes.

In fact, that technique failed as soon as the passengers on the 4th plane learned about one of the other planes from a cell phone call. They acted to foil the terrorists (at the cost of their own lives). If they had known a little earlier, I doubt the terrorists would have gained access to the cockpit and the plane would likely have landed safely.

That's what we know. Prior to the first plane hitting a building - this sort of action was inconceivable to the average civilian. This is no longer true and it will never be true again.

The other thing I know is I have a right to personal grooming tools and I'm fed up with buying new ones everytime I get on a plane.

Smalltalk is dangerous. It is a drug. My advice to you would be don't try it; it could ruin your life. Once you take the time to learn it (to REALLY learn it) you will see that there is nothing out there (yet) to touch it. Of course, like all drugs, how dangerous it is depends on your character. It may be that once you've got to this stage you'll find it difficult (if not impossible) to "go back" to other languages and, if you are forced to, you might become an embittered character constantly muttering ascerbic comments under your breath. Who knows, you may even have to quit the software industry altogether because nothing else lives up to your new expectations.
--AndyBower

Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:03:03 AM EDT

Expand All History

Post #110,958

by jb4

7/22/03 5:40:48 PM

Or, perhaps, one less time

And what's worse really, is if the man had simply removed the button when asked, he would have been fine. Just like we hand over our tweezers and nail clippers and everything else. But he had to make a stink over it, which is why there is even a problem in the first place.

Can you say, "Baaaaah!"? I knew you could....

jb4
The difference between Confidence and Ego is that Confidence has respect, while Ego does not.
Candyce Burns (my wife)

Post #110,966

by Ashton

7/22/03 6:19:12 PM

Please..

just don't register to vote, OK? I mean.. there's so much More Interesting stuff for you to do, so many expectations to meet and - now you're safe from attack too: they are getting ALL of the tweezers and nailclippers - virtually 100.0%. And soon the cattle-prods will speed up even Your infrequent airport trip, to pick up a woolly biped traveller (if he isn't detoured to Guantanamo.. because he looks funny).

Safety.. don't abandon the Republic for anything Less!
(Remember too: You must Love Them; it is not enough to just Obey Them\ufffd)

So now, nothing can go wrong..
go wrong..
go

Thanks,

Ashton

PS - do you read things like books? Older than '02, say?
You might enjoy the tale of one Winston Smith - in a today little-known book by a minor author. It's called 1984 - and yes, you're right: we're long past that date. So it's probably obsolescent already.
Just a thought. It's a pretty long book though, so - -

Post #111,015

7/22/03 10:39:50 PM

Re: Please..

just don't register to vote, OK? I mean.. there's so much More Interesting stuff for you to do, so many expectations to meet and - now you're safe from attack too: they are getting ALL of the tweezers and nailclippers - virtually 100.0%. And soon the cattle-prods will speed up even Your infrequent airport trip, to pick up a woolly biped traveller (if he isn't detoured to Guantanamo.. because he looks funny).

Well first of all, I am registered to vote, but I rarely do, because I can't comprehend the political parties' platforms most of the time. I have voted in a couple Presidential elections, but that's the most voting I tend to do. I believe if I vote when I don't know what I'm doing, I'm just doing worse than not voting.

PS - do you read things like books? Older than '02, say?

You might enjoy the tale of one Winston Smith - in a today little-known book by a minor author. It's called 1984 - and yes, you're right: we're long past that date. So it's probably obsolescent already.

Just a thought. It's a pretty long book though, so - -

I read all the time, all kinds of books. I read 1984 years and years ago in High School, and I didn't like it. I'm not big on anything futuristic where technology rules. Government monitoring people using extreme technology is included in that.

Nightowl >8#

"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!"

Comment by Nightowl

Post #111,042

by inthane-chan

7/23/03 12:04:36 AM

Point == missed.

I read 1984 years and years ago in High School, and I didn't like it. I'm not big on anything futuristic where technology rules.

There's a line in 1984... (Paraphrased) "I'm not sure it's 1984. In fact, I have no idea when it is."

Orwell was writing about real political events occuring in 1948. The story wasn't about the technology - it was about a world where the government dominated every aspect of our lives.

Something, that thanks to the vast majority of sheeple out there willing to roll over and ignore George Orwell's warning to us.

Government monitoring people using extreme technology is included in that.

Then by your inaction, you are aiding to damn the rest of us who seek the pursuit of freedom, instead of slavery. You have forsaken your potential as a human being.

Post #111,046

7/23/03 12:24:15 AM

Re: Point == missed.

Then by your inaction, you are aiding to damn the rest of us who seek the pursuit of freedom, instead of slavery. You have forsaken your potential as a human being.

Huh? Just because I prefer not to read books or see movies where technology rules?

Nightowl >8#

"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!"

Comment by Nightowl

Post #111,075

by Ashton

7/23/03 2:43:17 AM

Technology?

The stone axe is 'technology'. We are tool-making apes: the %-difference between a Republicrat and a chimpanzee is IIRC <0.1% in the DNA coding (and lots of that contains junk-nodes, so the differences might be smaller yet). What we do is 'make things' -- most often without much concern for the "unintended consequences". Technology is just a fancy name for a Much Larger Way of making useful/not-so-useful/destructive things, none of which much change the meat-aspect at all:

we're herd animals and pack animals.. with always a small assortment of odd ones who refuse to join any organization as would Take.. people like them.

If you had imagined that 1984 had anything much to do with technology (except as theatre decoration), then it's not even a question: you missed it. All of it.

I will grant that you are more aware of that which you don't know - than many, and I offer Brownie points for your forthrightness. I haven't walked in your moccasins or experienced the early conditioning of your parents, so I can't guess whether your current disinterest in what-you-call politics is inborn - or? a result of rather too-few hours of being read to and possibly.. having been ensconced in front of a Tee Vee for many hours - this in lieu of sincere adult Attention and efforts to wake you up, and keep you awake.

But there's always hope. 'Politics' is supposed to be about ~ every aspect of the "social contract" we are born into, yet - Can Change - if, and when 'we' (enough of 'us') see a need to. To be not-interested in "how you live" / the rules and their effects - as determine all options available to you: is to freely surrender your voice along with the chances which you might have helped create for yourself and for others.

Those books, which you have also found to be of little interest, are the means by which we are able to evade mistakes - for learning just how many and what kind were already made - it's a great time and energy saver, you see? And it's never too late to begin catching up. And since this IS America, the land of Disneyland Dreams Tee Vee and large noise-background all the time: it wouldn't be long before you surpassed the experience of many of your contemporaries. So.. "catching up" really isn't all that hard.

There are many libraries (for a while yet) and librarians are a special breed: they love to answer sincere queries and point people to decent short-cuts to catching up - whatever the topic. Librarians are among the more underappreciated people around, especially in this now post-literate era.

Still and all - no one can supply Interest. That comes from inside or it doesn't. There are no 'shoulds' about that, though. Simply, those who do have Interests find the perpetually disinterested to be - boring at best. This may be why groups form around Interests. And the others go to chat rooms to say everything about nothing.

A member of one group will not be very comfortable in the other, but people are generally more than happy whenever a person "wants to change groups?" - it implies that something is Alive there. The snide remarks cease, under such circumstances :-)

Lastly, as to 'books' - [link|http://www.classicnote.com/ClassicNotes/Titles/fahrenheit/| Fahrenheit 451] (the kindling temperature of newsprint) may give you an idea of the appreciation for books in a situation which -- seems eerily close-to where we seem to be heading. It's available in a superb movie or best of all: in print by the author. It's a rollicking good tale, in any case - but as always: you have to supply its 'meaning'.

Bon appetit,

Ashton
who once.. had read neither 1984 nor Fahrenheit 451. Too.

Post #111,116

7/23/03 10:49:00 AM

Re: Technology?

The stone axe is 'technology'. ... Technology is just a fancy name for a Much Larger Way of making useful/not-so-useful/ destructive things, none of which much change the meat-aspect at all:

Perhaps I should have clarified. Computer technology. Yes, I know I'm typing on a computer right now, but honestly, there was a time when I was terrified of computers, I believed they were capable of taking me over and running my life and everyone else's just by sitting there. Now I'm smarter, but things like computer controlled houses still give me the heebie jeebies.

I was shown what computers could do, i.e. make words appear on a screen and then come out on paper, and that is what drew me to them finally, and allowed me to trust them some, the desire to put words on screen and paper.

If you had imagined that 1984 had anything much to do with technology (except as theatre decoration), then it's not even a question: you missed it. All of it.

Oh well, I read it years ago, and I was never big on sci fi futuristic stuff, i.e. the end of the world, nuclear destruction, or farming the moon. I like some Sci Fi stuff but the hard core sci fi just bored and confused me, as a rule, with a few notable exceptions like The Forever War, The War Of The Worlds, etc.

I will grant that you are more aware of that which you don't know - than many, and I offer Brownie points for your forthrightness. I haven't walked in your moccasins or experienced the early conditioning of your parents, so I can't guess whether your current disinterest in what-you-call politics is inborn - or? a result of rather too-few hours of being read to and possibly.. having been ensconced in front of a Tee Vee for many hours - this in lieu of sincere adult Attention and efforts to wake you up, and keep you awake.

I'll have you know I read/and still do, alot more than you give me credit for. I was addicted to TV once as a child and decided it was a bad thing. I weaned myself away from hours and hours of TV one step at a time, till I cut down an entire day to night viewing to about 10 programs. Now I currently watch about 5 types of TV, including many daily newscasts because I'm very interested in news. I watch one Soap Opera, and it is the #1 on the list, and I watch a couple drama shows, no sitcoms, no silly reality shows, and no talk shows other than Dr. Phil and occasionally David Letterman.

I am a history buff, and politics always intertwine with History, but honestly it gets too jumbled for me to completely ever understand, and I simply got tired of it and focused on the military and other actions regarding History, rather than most of the political stuff. I have tried to understand politics, found it more frustrating than it's worth, and still have trouble remembering what is left and right wing, and etc.

But there's always hope. 'Politics' is supposed to be about ~ every aspect of the "social contract" we are born into, yet - Can Change - if, and when 'we' (enough of 'us') see a need to. To be not-interested in "how you live" / the rules and their effects - as determine all options available to you: is to freely surrender your voice along with the chances which you might have helped create for yourself and for others.

I realize that by not voting, I don't have a right to complain if I don't like the circumstances. So, I don't complain, I cope. Honestly, even when I DO vote and it doesn't go the way I would like, I still don't complain. I make the best of it.

Those books, which you have also found to be of little interest, are the means by which we are able to evade mistakes - for learning just how many and what kind were already made - it's a great time and energy saver, you see? And it's never too late to begin catching up. And since this IS America, the land of Disneyland Dreams Tee Vee and large noise-background all the time: it wouldn't be long before you surpassed the experience of many of your contemporaries. So.. "catching up" really isn't all that hard.

There are many libraries (for a while yet) and librarians are a special breed: they love to answer sincere queries and point people to decent short-cuts to catching up - whatever the topic. Librarians are among the more underappreciated people around, especially in this now post-literate era.

I am in love with books. I probably have more books in my house than most people, probably akin to a small library, and I honestly would appreciate you not making assumptions about whether I read or not. I read almost everything, all the time, including my daily newspapers, and I appreciate the written word over any other media, including the computer.

I wanted to be a librarian once, but someone made sure that could never happen without a great deal of repair so I lost some of my respect for the genre. But I know librarians answer questions, and I also am very good at seeking answers on the internet, through what I call "fishing" However, I have to know what I'm seeking answers to, and some of the things said in here aren't clear enough to look up, so I ask John and he assists me in paraphrasing much of it.

Still and all - no one can supply Interest. That comes from inside or it doesn't. There are no 'shoulds' about that, though. Simply, those who do have Interests find the perpetually disinterested to be - boring at best. This may be why groups form around Interests. And the others go to chat rooms to say everything about nothing.

Like Math, which I took, took again, took a third time and still cannot master without doing each problem 5 times and taking the answer I get the most times, I choose not to deal with most political issues, because of the level of frustration it causes me.

It's not a matter of just interest, it's a matter of frustration, and having no serious need to understand it since I do not vote about every little issue in my government or community, and because even if you know what the politicians are saying, you never know if they are telling the truth, so why bother.

So If I'm boring because I don't care much for politics, I am sorry, I don't usually get into any sort of conversation about this but I felt I had something to contribute, and I did.

Nightowl >8#

"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!"

Comment by Nightowl

Post #111,187

by Ashton

7/23/03 8:02:07 PM

Well, that clears it up.

You might be surprised to hear - I bought my Osborne1, the first practical toy computer - for exactly the same purpose: words. A Wang\ufffd 'wordprocessor' {ugly Idea, That} was a bloated, overpriced inaccessible thing - and soon.. Wang died.

(I despise spreadsheets - to me they epitomize the reduction of All Life to the simplistic, juvenile mindset of a bottom line) and further symbolize the diseducation of the basketweaving CPA/Econ courses. (A radical Capitalist idea of a pretend- Ed-ja-Kay'-shun)

Many folks re-read books, periodically. Shakespeare is the obv. example - since, as we grow, occasionally we even grow Up. Since you're older now, possibly another read of both mentioned books.. might permit you to skip the mantra, sciencefiction-Idon'tlike Thosethings-SoIwon'tlikeThis
and read for comprehension of the Society Matters.. maybe along with a quick reread of the Constitution of the US and especially, The Bill of Rights. For perspective: Then (a few years ago, even) and Now. (Those last two are pretty brief.)

If none of it still makes sense, turns on any Lights then? Well, you tried. But as always: your call.

Oh: indeed, people lie all the time! especially to themselves (practice makes perfect). Your task is to look for the symptoms and each day get better at that - or just.. never mind.

Ashton

Post #111,193

7/23/03 9:07:48 PM

Re: Well, that clears it up.

You might be surprised to hear - I bought my Osborne1, the first practical toy computer - for exactly the same purpose: words. A Wang? 'wordprocessor' {ugly Idea, That} was a bloated, overpriced inaccessible thing - and soon.. Wang died.

Kewl! I started with an Apple IIE, myself and I still have it and it still works. :)

(I despise spreadsheets - to me they epitomize the reduction of All Life to the simplistic, juvenile mindset of a bottom line) and further symbolize the diseducation of the basketweaving CPA/Econ courses. (A radical Capitalist idea of a pretend- Ed-ja-Kay'-shun)

I only like Spreadsheets because I can make them alphabetize and organize. I haven't yet figured out Access to the point where I can manipulate it like I would like, but I have learned a lot more about tables in Word that work similar to the spreadsheets in regards to columns and rows.

Many folks re-read books, periodically. Shakespeare is the obv. example - since, as we grow, occasionally we even grow Up. Since you're older now, possibly another read of both mentioned books.. might permit you to skip the mantra, sciencefiction-Idon'tlike Thosethings-SoIwon'tlikeThis

I suppose I can consider it, but I'll be honest. I have probably over 100 books waiting to be read. I have books about historical things like ship wrecks, and the Oklahoma Bombing, and 9/11 to read, books about jobs and coping with mean bosses and dealing with people on the job to read, a number of Star Wars books to read, several self-help books to read, including the recent ones about Migraines, a book I'm still reading and dealing with with my counselor about Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome, and many many more books from movies, or about life events, or just funny in general. I'm also still reading "The Forever Peace" with my husband out loud, which is the sequel to the "Forever War."

Not trying to be a smart aleck, but I have a lot to read someday, and I am still acquiring more all the time. That doesn't even touch the magazines and other miscellaneous things I get or am given to read. I probably have about 12 books started right now, as I read them in various places and at various times.

I'll be honest though, one of the reasons I stopped reading hard core Sci Fi was it gave me nightmares. And that's also one of the reasons I've hesitated to read some of the historical things, and only read them during the daytime, so I don't go to bed with say, the World Trade Disaster on my mind.

and read for comprehension of the Society Matters.. maybe along with a quick reread of the Constitution of the US and especially, The Bill of Rights. For perspective: Then (a few years ago, even) and Now. (Those last two are pretty brief.)

I believe I reread the constitution just last year when John and I looked something up, but I can't swear it.

If none of it still makes sense, turns on any Lights then? Well, you tried. But as always: your call.

Yep, and my main goal this next 6 months is to try and get back in the employment game... although I must admit, I'm still very hesitant and very scared.

Nightowl >8#

"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!"

Comment by Nightowl

Post #111,051

7/23/03 12:33:15 AM

Re: One more time.

I live in the UK. Unlike the Americans present (specifically YOU), I've spent my entire life in a country that's been in a state of low-level civil war (any NORAID contributors present? Just want to say, "Gee, *thanks*, y'all"). It's only in the past few years that the IRA have stopped blowing things up.

I'll emphasise one point for you. YOU ARE NOT UNDER TERRORIST THREAT.

The horrifying events of September 11, 2001, were a one-off; never to be repeated. It is to your eternal shame that you as a nation have allowed the Bush/Rumsfeld administration to use this anomolous event to start gutting the Constitution wholesale in order that they cling to power.

Many Americans have pointed out that the UK doesn't have a written constitution (it does, it's just not in one document) and that we're poorer for it. Until the current administration started turning the USA into a one-party pigopolarchy, I'd have agreed.

When security takes nail-clippers and tweezers from you at the airport, they're not safeguarding you; they're violating your freedom.

Next, they'll take some other item, and another, and another. Then you won't be able to take any hand-luggage at all.

Then, you'll have to seek approval for your journey.

Then you won't be able to travel at all.

Yes, this is hyperbolic. I'm being dramatic to make a point, which is this:

America is becoming that which she despises.

Post #111,059

7/23/03 12:47:19 AM

Right. On.

pwhysall observes:

America is becoming that which she despises.

Has. Become.

cordially,

Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.

Post #111,076

by Ashton

7/23/03 3:04:51 AM

Thanks, Peter.

It must be transparent - looking from outside the intentionally-induced madness of this unelected rehime.

GPL'd? I'd like to quote it (exactly). But usual care re any zIWE linking.

Ashton

Post #111,600

by mhuber

7/26/03 9:25:18 PM

Dead fish get through the line faster

----
Sometime you the windshield, sometime you the bug, sometime you the driver and you turn on the windshield washer and keep going.

Post #110,882

7/22/03 11:20:09 AM

button wasn't created for the article.

The button, which was created by political activist Emi Koyama, says "Suspected Terrorist".

Checking [link|http://eminism.org/|her site] you can see a number of other buttons in the store(though this particle button is offline due to bandwith issues).

I don't agree that this was political speech.

I see, it's only political speech of you say it is.

Darrell Spice, Jr.                      [link|http://www.spiceware.org/cgi-bin/spa.pl?album=./Artistic%20Overpass|Artistic Overpass]\n[link|http://www.spiceware.org/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore

Post #110,894

7/22/03 12:10:21 PM

Sigh

First you jump me for being hypocritical. I have pointed out (several times now), using phrases like "I believe" and "IMO", my reasoning behind why I don't agree this is political speech (thus negating the charge of hypocrisy). I even say, regarding my belief, "you can argue with this...", to which, you make a good point about the button's creation (which came first, the button or the article?).

And then you make the accusation that once I define it as non-political, I'm closed to further argument. The problem with that is, until just now, you (and others) neglected to *make* that argument.

So I'm a hypocrite (except I'm not (in this case at least)), and I'm obstinately sure of myself against all evidence (which may be true, but you've hardly given me a chance to show that).

-----------------------------------------
[link|http://www.talion.com/questionw.html|?W]
Where were you in 72?

Post #110,898

7/22/03 12:26:06 PM

why the distinction?

why should a company be able to decide to do business with somebody based on their non-political speech, but not be allowed to make the same decision over political speech?

Darrell Spice, Jr.                      [link|http://www.spiceware.org/cgi-bin/spa.pl?album=./Artistic%20Overpass|Artistic Overpass]\n[link|http://www.spiceware.org/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore

Post #110,913

7/22/03 1:53:08 PM

Good question

A different topic though. And it's not a distinction I make. Allow me to explain.

In this case the very real concern of flight attendants over hijacking color their reactions. Even if "Suspected Terrorist" was a recognized slogan of a political protest group, it would still be problematic on an airplane.

As for a business refusing service to a customer (not quite the same as the Dixie Chicks example you brought up earlier), within certain legal constraints, they can do it at will. The business might get picketed or otherwise protested and lose sales.

If the reason for the denial of service is because of political speech, they can still refuse the service. And I can protest that refusal. They are within their legal rights to refuse service as I am within mine to convince others to stop patronizing that business.

why should a company be able to decide to do business with somebody based on their non-political speech, but not be allowed to make the same decision over political speech?

As I said, good question. Not my position, but a good question. It's not about being "allowed" to refuse service or not. It's about accepting the fallout from that decision. I can disagree with it, I won't say they aren't allowed to make it.

-----------------------------------------
[link|http://www.talion.com/questionw.html|?W]
Where were you in 72?

Post #110,971

by drewk

7/22/03 6:57:48 PM

Good question, but the *wrong* one IMO

They are within their legal rights to refuse service as I am within mine to convince others to stop patronizing that business.

In general I agree with this. That is why I support the rights of businesses to discriminate based on color. And the rights of informed citizens to picket and/or boycott the business.

The question is, in the case of airlines are there common carrier laws that prohibit airlines in particular from doing so? It wouldn't surprise me if various Supreme Court decisions have instead established this as precedent in the absence of legislation.

If the latter is the case, this raises the constitutional issue of whether freedom of speech issues outweigh whatever protections are afforded by common carrier findings.

All I can [link|http://www.aviation-law-lawyers.com/pgs/commercial.html|find] about the definition of/requirements for common carriers is:

Under federal law, beyond the specific and technical standards required for aircraft fitness, pilot licensing, etc., a common carrier owes the highest degree of care for the safety of its passengers, reasonably consistent with the practical operation of the airline's business.

According to that link the definition is in Chapter 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations, Sections 121 and 135, but I can't find the text of those regs online. Could one of our pilots help out?

===

Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.

Post #110,973

by Ashton

7/22/03 7:03:58 PM

Ept-LRPD: "Safety is our first concern! Actually, meat

is our first concern, safety is second."

Coffee? Tea? or Me?? -Why.. it's Traditional . .

Post #110,975

7/22/03 7:27:47 PM

Couldn't let this go by

In general I agree with this. That is why I support the rights of businesses to discriminate based on color. And the rights of informed citizens to picket and/or boycott the business

Please explain.

Post #110,976

by Another Scott

7/22/03 7:33:55 PM

See, e.g., 87073.

[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=87073|87073] gives some of his views on this. And I think he discussed this during the ezIWeThey days too.

There's more there than a cursory glance might lead you to believe. It's well reasoned too, though I don't know if I agree with all of it.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #110,985

by drewk

7/22/03 8:07:01 PM

Thanks for finding the link

The does pretty much sum it up. But to sum up the summation ...

Either I am allowed to own private property or not. If society is allowed to dictate (through law) the rules for use of my property we suffer tyranny of the majority. In Birmingham, Alabama in 1950, society, through law, would have prohibited me from serving black and white customers at the same lunch counter. Sometimes society is wrong.

Our defense against this is -- or rather should be -- that each citizen can make his own rules for his own property/business,[1] as long as those rules don't directly harm another, or deny them their rights. And citizens are then free to patronize this business or not, and to organize protests againtst these rules.

As this applies to airlines, if they are privately owned[2] they should be free to set their own rules, and citizens should be free to protest those rules.

All that said, I think the interesting question is whether there is legislation or precedent spelling out the responsibilites of "common carriers". If there are guidelines that common carriers must serve all comers who pay the advertised price without discrimination, and if these guidelines are based on protecting constitutionally guaranteed rights, then as I said freedom of speech would be weighed against those rights.

[1] Business is just a type of property. My position is not based on the concept of incorporation -- which I believe has been stretched far beyond its intent -- but on property rights.

[2] In this context I include publicly traded companies. "Private" simply means "not government owned/taxpayer funded".

===

Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.

Post #110,986

by Ashton

7/22/03 8:16:39 PM

So then.. what about Government Subsidized biznesses?

When Chrysler held out its cap a couple times (and yes - Surprisingly! - actually paid it back with interest). What about Government subsidies of farm(er)s, tobacco-planters (!) and a list of thousands:

While they are being funded by US/"us" - should other standards apply? And if not, why not?

I think.. you're just polishing a tar baby - in seeking to relate 'property rights' to All of Life - that's a CPA- Econ-think kinda project IMO. It's also the template for most PNAC / Neoconman deconstructions of honesty, decency and other words with inescapable connotations across all scales. (I dunno if you can shellac a tar baby -?-)

Ashton
Bring mob rule back home.
Rehire the Vigilantes - at least you know who's under the sheet you're shooting at!

Post #110,991

by drewk

7/22/03 8:29:35 PM

Good point

If the business accepts a government subsidy then they should follow the same standards as the government. So if the government doesn't allow discrimination then neither should anyone accepting their money. And this does indeed include all (most? I'm pretty sure it's all) of the major airlines.

But you clearly have a problem with my main point, that private businesses should be allowed to exercize property rights. You seem to make the distinction that personal freedoms are somehow distinct from property rights. Please explain how?

===

Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.

Post #110,995

7/22/03 8:37:16 PM

Private water company

No government.
No subsidies.
Decides to stop selling water to blacks.
Their homes become worthless.

This is an extreme of the economic manipulation possible based on your viewpoint.

Post #110,999

by drewk

7/22/03 8:59:28 PM

Two answers

First is that enough people would have a problem with this that it couldn't last. Even apartheid came down eventually. I refuse to believe enough of the population would condone such behavior for it to go on indefinitely.

Second is that I allow for the possibility that some services should be publicly held. Is that privately held water company a hypothetical or does such a thing exist? How do/would they guarantee rights of way across property they don't own? How could anything we currently view as a utility (power, water, phone) exist without government enforcement of their rights of way?

===

Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.

Post #111,006

7/22/03 9:27:04 PM

Why?

Enough people?
Nah.
I'd say there are huge swaths of the population who would love it.

Don't forget the American dream.
A million blacks swimming back to Africa with a Jew under each arm.

Right of way?
Purchased, done deal, no issue.
Fully paid off all the required pieces of the governent.
Isolated development, of which they are the only source
of water.
No wells.
Hell, they can even own the damn road in my example.
Such things have happened in "company towns".
The only thing they don't own are 1/2 the houses in the development,
owned by the blacks, who they decide not to sell water to any more.

Yes or No: Do you support their "right" to do that?

Post #111,021

by boxley

7/22/03 11:00:59 PM

Hey you can swim last time I checked

if the armpit smell bothers you :-)
You are liable to be sued civilly if denied equal protection, a governmental entity cannot criminalise failure to desegragate. Governments MUST treat all equal or face federal criminal penalties.
thanx,
bill

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

Post #111,089

by drewk

7/23/03 8:24:08 AM

How can "company towns" exist?

The only reasons companies are able to grow so large is the protection afforded by incormporation, a legal fiction enforced by law. We, through our elected representatives, have decided to allow this fiction. Then we try, through these same representatives, to pile layer upon layer of regulation upon these companies to restrict how they may act.

Wouldn't it be simpler to rethink the whole concept of incorporation? Had Union Carbide officers been held personally liable for the Bhopal disaster, it is likely the next set of executives would have exercized more care. Instead we pass on to coporate officers all the benefits and rights, without any of the liabilities.

So in one sense I agree with you. If we were to eliminate restrictions on what corporations can do without introducing personal accountability, it could be as bad as you suggest. But IMO we are using one bad idea to try to solve the problems created by another one.

===

Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.

Post #111,018

by Another Scott

7/22/03 10:43:49 PM

Veolia (nee Vivendi) and Suez are 2 of the biggest.

This week's Economist has a survey on water - [link|http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=1906846|Priceless]. They argue that governments often do a very poor job in water.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #111,037

by Ashton

7/22/03 11:48:45 PM

Re: Veolia (nee Vivendi) and Suez are 2 of the biggest.

Yessss.. I recall a few months back, a most intelligent exploration of that very issue - I think.. by a woman assoc. with the Grameen Bank. Delhi scholastic accent. Overall though, this particularly al punte NPR broadcast was about a conference, during which several fine speakers gave concise rebuttals to the current Corporatization Plan for {those helpless folks in} the Third World. A few rose to subtle-Tom-Lehrer heights. Missed any web ref, even while listening for such :(

IIRC one biggie was the stark recitation of ENRON's India power-$$ grab via 'funding' [but not really] that power plant, while also indenturing most in the region for.. a couple generations of grossly overpriced 'power'. Ah the biz-power to disempower folks through massive dissembling. But then, near-at-home: we have Longhorn, so -

The rest of the world doesn't have to become much.. smarter to - tangle assholes effectively with the Neoconman mindset: only, they need then to become REPORTED.

Which brings us back to OUR problem in the Homeland, now pretty Secure against many such factual incursions.

Ashton

Post #110,993

7/22/03 8:34:05 PM

Medical?

Does that fall under "your do no harm?"

What about a pharmacy selling medication?

What about a food store?

If the white only food store has prices 20% less than the black serving one next door, it that harmful?

What about if the nearest black serving food store is 20 miles away?

What if the area that that has the most jobs only has food stores that serve whites only? Blacks couln't work there because they couldn't eat.

I say the "cause no harm" could be twisted any way you want.

Post #110,998

by drewk

7/22/03 8:53:56 PM

Turn it around

Remember my example, pre-1960's Birmingham, Alabama. The law prohibited serving blacks and whites at the same lunch counter. Would a proprieter have been "wrong" to violate the local law?

===

Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.

Post #111,004

7/22/03 9:20:07 PM

I'm merely exploring your "harm" limitation

You conveniently ignored that and threw up the Birmingham straw man.

Post #111,086

by drewk

7/23/03 8:02:54 AM

Not allowed to buy my product != harm

If I own a product, and I don't want to sell it to you, why should I have to? If I provide a service and I don't want to provide it to you, why should I have to?

And why is Birmingham a straw man? That was specifically to refute the point that community consensus should be allowed to dictate how I run my own business.

===

Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.

Post #111,087

7/23/03 8:09:13 AM

Untrue - Answer Y/N on water company above

And your Birmingham is a straw man.
An example of one bad law does not invalidate all.

Post #111,007

7/22/03 9:38:29 PM

I'm not a pilot

But I'm a damn good researcher. Try [link|http://frwebgate2.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate.cgi?WAISdocID=923667454418+1+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve|here] and [link|http://frwebgate6.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate.cgi?WAISdocID=92354941756+2+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve|here]

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[link|http://www.talion.com/questionw.html|?W]
Where were you in 72?

Post #111,085

by drewk

7/23/03 7:58:50 AM

Cool, but ...

The links apparently only work from within a session, because I'm getting nothing with them. What search terms did you use on that site to find them?

===

Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.

Post #111,092

7/23/03 8:59:11 AM

Here ya go

"Chapter 14" AND "Section 121"

"Chapter 14" AND "Section 135"

Exactly as written above.

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[link|http://www.talion.com/questionw.html|?W]
Where were you in 72?

Post #110,943

by lincoln

7/22/03 4:50:52 PM

Agree that the subject title could have been better

Post #111,009

7/22/03 9:59:35 PM

Hmmm.

I smell an instigator.

Keep it up. :)

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[link|http://www.talion.com/questionw.html|?W]
Where were you in 72?

Post #111,020

by Ashton

7/22/03 10:53:48 PM

{cackle}

Post #111,053