Post #88,553
3/15/03 2:16:49 PM
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and so it begins
I don't know whether anyone takes the Gaia hypothesis seriously anymore, but to the extent the world and its collective biology can be considered to function as an organism, is it so far-fetched to imagine that humanity's antics might provoke the planetary equivalent of a vigorous immune response?
co-co- (cough, cough)- cordially,
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
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Post #88,600
3/15/03 9:47:43 PM
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Well..I actually *understand* it...
The Gaia hypothesis as originally stated is that many of the things that have remained constant over the millions of years that the Earth has existed have done so because there are homeostasis mechanisms maintaining them. The question then becomes identifying them.
This hypothesis surprised people, but is at heart noncontroversial. What lies behind it is a generic observation about equilibrium - things don't tend to remain the same through other changes by accident. Identifying those mechanisms then becomes important. As does figuring out what the limits of those mechanisms are.
However this hypothesis got picked up by people with a virtually religious view. The view of the entire world system as dynamically maintaining its state causes a lot of people to think that there is some intention behind it. Which is wrong. The homeostasis mechanisms are more on par with your house's thermostat than any kind of intelligence. But be that as it may, the result is a lot of mystical misunderstanding of the planet as a thinking creature, and one which presumably has lots of reasons to want to get rid of us.
Which is fun for speculation, but in the same vein as astrology. It should not be mistaken for being based in reality.
So the answer to your question is, "No." We should anticipate that our actions will cause unanticipated reactions. But thinking of the world as being actively malicious towards us is unjustified.
Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
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Post #88,604
3/15/03 10:13:39 PM
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as useful as Navaho traditions
when a shooting star is seen in the sky, go "pha Pha" and wave it away. Creation myth linked to Yucatan impact crater. As far as the whitecells attacking the bacteria theory goes, we are comprised of shit piss snot and blood in a badly designed container. As a bacteria we are unsuccessful and cannibalistic.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]</br>
To a lot of people in California hunting anything but the wild tofualope was equivelent to sacarificing babies to satan. S.M. Sterling
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Post #88,605
3/15/03 10:17:53 PM
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We may be speaking at cross-purposes...
thinking of the world as being actively malicious towards us is unjustified.
I don't attribute to the planet anything like the intentional stance when I speak of an immune response. You and I may detest the rhinovirus that afflicts us in this season's cold, but the cellular reactions that are brought to bear to expel and destroy the viral particles have no hard feelings: they're merely doing what proteins do in a given biochemical environment. Our own hard feelings toward the infectious agents count for zip. I certainly attribute nothing more to "Gaia."
My original point was suggested by a riff on--suppose the biosphere does tend toward homeostasis? Suppose that humanity is, in this larger view, nothing more than a component of this virtual macro-organism, and that, just as a few human cancers provoke an effective immune response once they first register in the organism at large, we have--merely by our natural activities (peasant agriculture + international air transport)--given rise to a super-virus that takes the species down several pegs? This doesn't have to happen because the world hates us, any more than we recover from a cold because we want to.
Just speculation...but I didn't want the impression left that I was some kind of animist...
cordially,
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
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Post #88,607
3/15/03 10:20:53 PM
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No, not animist, analist would be more apt :)
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]</br>
To a lot of people in California hunting anything but the wild tofualope was equivelent to sacarificing babies to satan. S.M. Sterling
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Post #88,611
3/15/03 10:27:37 PM
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Re: No, not animist, analist would be more apt :)
and your point, in the context of this thread, is?
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
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Post #88,612
3/15/03 10:34:29 PM
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your description of what others might think of you
Viega states Just speculation...but I didn't want the impression left that I was some kind of animist... wouldnt want you to think that some how you were thought as an animist. Thought I would clear that up for you. thanx, bill PS I dont know your background but to ME (and possibly Me only) IWETHEY is the longest bar in the workd where people come to meet greet and argue over important and equally unimportant ideas to the benedetriment of all. These are conversations in threaded form not letters or declarations. Those fine things can be found at /, among others. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]</br>
To a lot of people in California hunting anything but the wild tofualope was equivelent to sacarificing babies to satan. S.M. Sterling
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Post #88,615
3/15/03 10:45:10 PM
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The "Viega" tag..
...which is, I gather, intended as a term of disparagement, is utterly lost on me, since I have no idea what it's intended to convey--rather like calling me "motherfucker" in Cretan Linear B: there are no extant tools with which to translate the abuse.
cordially,
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
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Post #88,624
3/15/03 11:07:39 PM
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no problem I find it amusing and that is the only criteria
No matter it amuses me and thats what counts. It is not ed zachery disparagement but a rather accurate perception of your writing style and a superficial resemblence to the portrayal.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]</br>
To a lot of people in California hunting anything but the wild tofualope was equivelent to sacarificing babies to satan. S.M. Sterling
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Post #88,631
3/15/03 11:28:31 PM
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why then, if it amuses you
...that's good enough for me--I wouldn't dream of interfering with another man's self-abuse.
cordially,
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
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Post #88,633
3/15/03 11:30:07 PM
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thank you sir for your understanding
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]</br>
To a lot of people in California hunting anything but the wild tofualope was equivelent to sacarificing babies to satan. S.M. Sterling
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Post #88,660
3/16/03 6:09:35 AM
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Well.. I guess it might amuse me that
you think it important to give permission for someone to clarify a remark - in such an obv. umm oblique fashion, but I always say -
Let him who is least in need of an editor - correct the student papers. Oh.. maybe that's the amusing part (?) ;-)
Ashton Snidely Whiplash
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Post #88,673
3/16/03 10:30:22 AM
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I would have thought by now you of all people
would have got the viega designation. He does look like the good doctor.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]</br>
To a lot of people in California hunting anything but the wild tofualope was equivelent to sacarificing babies to satan. S.M. Sterling
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Post #88,751
3/16/03 11:07:27 PM
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Who He?
Nope, sorry - never hoid o' the gent..
Bu s'OK - apparently lots haven't heard of Sinclair Lewis either, and I tended to think that most had. Too. ;-)
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Post #88,757
3/17/03 12:07:04 AM
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inna movie i sentya :-) busy lad ashton
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]</br>
To a lot of people in California hunting anything but the wild tofualope was equivelent to sacarificing babies to satan. S.M. Stirling
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Post #88,761
3/17/03 12:59:08 AM
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Well.. yeah: the Worm in the Apple, or maybe the asp
When a newbie (on Apple) is ""assisted"" by a pre-newbie but willful SO in er 'configuring' stuff.. a One who Foolishly Clicks On, "Set Up Your [AOL, MSN Compuserve??] Internet" - and one apparently gets just the same viral spread of unremovable wormlets throughout, as in #@$&* Beastware! - well, you know.
Time for an RRR. This Mac turned into a wineSap.. kinda like runnin yer Hemi on kerosene (to use the technical definitions).
So I haven't had time Yet to view your (it better be) Masterpiece.
But can you believe that #%^^%@# Dell installed W98 on her laptop originally, in '98 (the one with bad memory - now good memory) with 16-bit FAT + default "no-DMA" on the CD, 2 GB partition size etc. The lazy bastards musta just erased the W-95 install and loaded the W98 'upgrade'; w/o #@$%& OSR-2. 32 KB CLUSTERS !!
Anyway Two Busted machines, one Muslim t'other Catholic, in one week.
(Now she says the Dell works better than it ever has == well yeah, too: it has 144 MB instead of 80 and 32-bit FAT and a clean install + dejunking. Also because I Am A God.)
Cheers,
I, Reboot
The Microsloth frog says reboot reboot reboot
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Post #88,758
3/17/03 12:17:52 AM
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since I feel sorry for ya Viega
Viega is the good Doctor in a flic starring James Coberg and Rod Stieger
[link|http://www.afistfulofreviews.com/abcd/afistfulofdynamite.htm|http://www.afistfulo...fulofdynamite.htm] you have a passing resemblance to him visually and your posting style would be his if he were real in todays world.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]</br>
To a lot of people in California hunting anything but the wild tofualope was equivelent to sacarificing babies to satan. S.M. Stirling
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Post #88,762
3/17/03 1:15:06 AM
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Re: since I feel sorry for ya Viega
Can't say I caught that one; nor have I a particularly vivid memory of the actor from Garden of the Finzi-Continis, seen 30 years ago. Incidentally, the character's name is likelier to have been "Villega."
cordially,
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
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Post #88,765
3/17/03 1:28:18 AM
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Joys of the unfettered associative-brain:
The great Mexican trumpeter, Rafael M\ufffdndez - was kidnapped as a young boy, by Pancho Villa, who had heard of his virtuosity and wanted him around as bugler and musician. (He let him go, after a time, so he could pursue his art - or, well - no story)
Viega >> Villega (Gringos just Don't Get that two-l-s together == y) >> Villa!
Or maybe Voyager, the paint-erased space probe in an early STrek potboiler.
Venceremos!
Las muchachas Mexicanas son mas sabrosa que las otras..
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Post #88,767
3/17/03 1:42:15 AM
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Re: Joys of the unfettered associative-brain:
More association: My paternal grandfather, Alvaro Careaga, was a paymaster for Villa's army. The particular group he was attached to having been manhandled by a detachment of Black Jack Pershing's troops, he decided that life would be less hectic north of the Rio Grande, whence he relocated--grubstaking himself, according to family lore, with the payroll. Small wonder he was nearly sixty years returning to Mexico (and, oddly enough, dying there on that visit in 1974).
cordially,
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
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Post #88,824
3/17/03 2:02:42 PM
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since I only heard it, it sounds like Viega with a bad Irish
accent so could well have had 2 ll's in the middle. However the character is a good rightious socialist until he finds out he's only human after all. That seems to fit my immpression of you.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]</br>
To a lot of people in California hunting anything but the wild tofualope was equivelent to sacarificing babies to satan. S.M. Stirling
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Post #88,886
3/17/03 6:02:46 PM
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socialist? hardly
a good righteous socialist...seems to fit my impression of you
This judgment would astonish and offend my old schoolmate Henry Cleveland of the "Young Socialists Alliance" ca. 1971, whose characteristic response to my taunts and jeers was to assure me that come The Revolution (which rough beast as I recall he was expecting to arrive by 1973 at the latest) he would personally see to it that I was put up against a wall. Henry didn't doubt for a minute that he'd be in a position to effect this after The Revolution; even had I shared this belief I'd still have taken heart at the thought that, given the numbers of other folks to whom he'd delivered this threat (the guy was lots of fun at parties), I stood an excellent chance of making middle age before he got round to me.
One needn't be a socialist or a revolutionary--and Henry C. would vigorously deny my right to either badge--to feel a hearty contempt for George Bush's Imperial Amerika.
cordially,
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
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Post #88,827
3/17/03 2:05:49 PM
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Nit
James Coburn
Support our troops. Protest the war and try to bring them home.
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Post #88,835
3/17/03 2:17:14 PM
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Romolo Valli
Here he is in "The Garden of the Finzi Continis"
[image|http://www.sonypictures.com/classics/garden/multimedia/garden6.jpg||||]
That movie was from Sergio Leone of "Good, Bad, Ugly" fame. In Italian, the movie is called "Duck!" (Giu` la testa! Probably renamed to piggyback on Leone's 60s spaghetti operas.
-drl
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Post #88,616
3/15/03 10:46:48 PM
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We may indeed be speaking at cross-purposes
A metaphor can always be stretched, and it is true that any wide-ranging species with effective travel and contacts with many novel environments is a prime target for being recognized as an opportunity by new parasites. If you wish to regard that as an immune system preventing such species from becoming dominant, you may.
However the truth is that there is no evidence that our planet has ever given rise to a technological species before ourselves. Therefore there is no reason to believe that any mechanism blocking us exists.
Incidentally Von Neumann gave a famous argument that indicates that our entire galaxy has never had a successful spacefaring species. His argument was that such a species would eventually build self-reproducing machines that could spread. If those machines reached 1% of the speed of light (not unreasonable, all things considered) then it would spread over the galaxy over a geological eyeblink (10 million years). So the fact that they are not here means that either they never existed, or we have a heck of a coincidence...
Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
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Post #88,618
3/15/03 10:49:54 PM
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huh??
the truth is that there is no evidence that our planet has ever given rise to a technological species before ourselves. Therefore there is no reason to believe that any mechanism blocking us exists
How on earth or elsewhere did you get to there from my post??
bewideredly,
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
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Post #88,625
3/15/03 11:12:59 PM
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Quite simply...
I was answering the question of whether or not there is any reason to believe from the Gaia hypothesis that there are natural mechanisms which are inimical to technological civilization.
The answer is that there is not, because there is no evidence that the Earth has faced any stressor resembling that in the past.
Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
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Post #88,628
3/15/03 11:24:26 PM
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Re: Quite simply...
there is no evidence that the Earth has faced any stressor resembling that in the past
and so the Earth could not perforce develop a response in the present day? See Darwin's Dangerous Idea, Daniel Dennett, 1995.
cordially,
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
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Post #88,632
3/15/03 11:29:16 PM
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pick up yer local copy of the bible
happened to noah's generation as well as a mention in Isaiah for several other reboots. Glad to see you are a fundamentalist.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]</br>
To a lot of people in California hunting anything but the wild tofualope was equivelent to sacarificing babies to satan. S.M. Sterling
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Post #88,642
3/15/03 11:52:12 PM
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You seem to have missed the point
The point is that the past stability of the Earth is not evidence that the Earth has any correction mechanism for us. There is therefore no reason to believe that there is any correction mechanism against us.
The Earth can develop a response to our presence, but there is no reason to believe that its response will be massively out of line with what other successful species (ourselves in the past included) face routinely.
That said, what has been routine in the past would be viewed with horror by our society. But what we consider horrendously unacceptable casualty levels would not come close to wiping us off of the face of the Earth. It would come as a massive shock to complacent masses who believe that evolution no longer applies to us (if, that is, they believe in evolution at all), but the species is likely to go on.
About the book that you recommend. I have read plenty of books about evolution theory and sat in on biology courses on the same. Why do you specifically recommend that popularization on the topic? Is there something specific about that book which is not covered elsewhere, or did you think that I needed to be introduced to evolution theory?
Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
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Post #88,648
3/16/03 12:14:15 AM
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Re: You seem to have missed the point
You (and I in my responses) are perhaps making too much of a notion I threw out initially in a fanciful and metaphorical spirit. As to past responses of the earth's hypothetical immune system, the argument could be advanced that the impact of humanity upon the larger biosphere has only just registered.
what we consider horrendously unacceptable casualty levels would not come close to wiping us off of the face of the Earth
Probably not, if no worse than the 1918-19 pandemic. Even if substantially worse, would probably leave enough of us (I have no use for "diversity" as a socio-political concept, but it would certainly come in handy here as a genetic fact of life) to keep the species going, but might briefly put paid to the more cancerous side effects of technological civilization.
Why do you specifically recommend that popularization [Dennett] on the topic? --For his discussions of the adaptive responses of organisms within the practical dimensions of "design space." And Dennett, one of the extraordinary thinkers of our age, should not be lumped in with the "popularizers."
But--just so we understand each other--I don't propose that the Gaia hypothesis be extended beyond the basic notion of global homeostasis I gather we both agree upon, although I find some of the more ambitious speculations tempting.
cordially,
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
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Post #88,710
3/16/03 6:03:26 PM
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I think that I have read enough evolution theory for now...
Some other time I will go back and pick up more books on the topic when I am properly motivated.
So much to learn, so little time to do it...
Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
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Post #88,663
3/16/03 7:22:33 AM
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Methinks the hypothesis could not be tested.
There may even be 'proof' that it is of this class of concept, for those who do not believe in, "by inspection".
That is: a unique phenomenon in the yet-known milieu (life) is the situation. One need not anthropomorphize the planet to embellish 'Gaia' - nor may we dismiss the concept via any notion of 'statistical reasoning'.
Corollary: A collection of metaphors chosen by one group, is followed by repeated efforts to kill off members of another group (with slightly different ones) - an observable characteristic of the only example extant of this life phenomenon, at least among the most imaginative of the creatures. (Who are like us - therefore must be important)
Thus, re this tendency of homo-sap to create *personal* Gods in Our Likeness and infuse these with personalities, via our vivid imaginations: what is one justified in concluding from even this similar phenomenon, given the aforementioned Sample-of-One instance? We cannot study the process of Origin of this One sample. But we know how to design HVAC feedback loops and we naturally extrapolate that demonstrable knowledge of a process.
What we can't know from this Sample - is whether or not 'Gaia' (for ex.) is a mere thermostatic device or if it is umm Something Else upon which "some loop is closed" - perhaps something so unfathomable to us in our primitive state of knowledge, as to seem Magical.
IMO Gaia is as potentially useful a concept as is the Carnot cycle (a 'thing' which exists only in human mentation too - like so much else about which we tend to make the map/territory error). It needs less imagination than the construction of Gods and it derives from physics knowledge of process.
It's A-l-i-i-i-v-e !!! makes for good theatre, we note in our entertainments. *What* is to say that this One Known biosphere is not also alive ?? After all, one Can say, "as above so below" - as easily as not say this.
(And we both know well enough that, 'proof' is a word with rather limited application: perfectly applied only within rigorously stated mathematical axioms - damn near meaningless when applied to human behaviour; varying degrees of success in between. No?)
Postulates on the Gaia hypothesis:
1) It is incapable of resolution. Yet. It will depend upon whether or not the species survives long enough to mature.
2) At maturity, we may apperceive that the hypothesis can be resolved - or even superseded.
Ashton, or something
(What is meant by maturity ? [Hah])
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Post #88,665
3/16/03 9:31:54 AM
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In other words, it's a statement of faith.
--\r\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\r\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\r\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\r\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\r\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #88,684
3/16/03 11:26:56 AM
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blazing metaphors
Corollary: A collection of metaphors chosen by one group, is followed by repeated efforts to kill off members of another group (with slightly different ones) - an observable characteristic of the only example extant of this life phenomenon, at least among the most imaginative of the creatures. (Who are like us - therefore must be important)
See Dawkins 1976 and Dennett 1991 for discussions of memes and how they propagate and compete.
cordially,
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
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Post #88,759
3/17/03 12:33:37 AM
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Good reminder..
IIRC he had a bit of a blast with the faith dysfunction, though certainly not denying.. the also plentiful endorphins one experiences with guilty pleasures -
Like -- as someone once quoted from that neat dead language -- "Certuum est quia impossibile est". It is certain because it is impossible. Mayhaps an explanation for the marlowe-phantasm's Digital-faith in Peace Through Massive Bombardment cha cha cha
Also Hofstadter on viral sentences and self-replicating structures (not sure if that was in GEB or elsewhere) - surely a Registry-cleaner for overloaded neuron agglomerations..
But then, is there really anything new (The Hundredth Monkey) under our virus-attracting conceptual-Sun -?- "Give me a child until it is six and I'll fuck up the little sucker for life.." to coin a phrase.
Ashton
Is The Rev Foulwell a Holygram or a dEvil Dog (spelled backwards is fun)
Is the catalog of all works in the library to contain 'The Catalog' ?
(Or must we perform asanas to the meta?)
Is we edjaKatin our Yout yet?
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Post #88,712
3/16/03 6:07:08 PM
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What value do you seek from the hypothesis?
If it is amusement and sounding mystical, then proceed.
If it is a useful paradigm which motivates research and enables you to organize your understanding of multiple areas of science, then a more concrete comprehension of the topic is worthwhile.
My desire is for the latter...
Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
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Post #88,763
3/17/03 1:15:47 AM
3/17/03 1:30:54 AM
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You might wish to be careful re the assumption that
these are mutually exclusive (or even separate) goals :-\ufffd
Merely because organized religion has been so abysmally filled with treacle - doesn't mean that the Gaia metaphor is required also to conform to our historical standard of Execrableness. Capital-r Reality [whatever That might Be] is hardly likely to be accessible via merely the likes of Mr. Booles's handy stone knives & bearskins. (In my lexicon, anyway. YMMV)
Render unto C\ufffdsar Physics that which physics can manage: mapping the world of appearances and the Impressive! illusion of 'substance'. Dismiss the possibility of the ineffable at own risk ;-)
Ashtonanda
Subsidiary of, sat chit ananda
Edit: sp
Edited by Ashton
March 17, 2003, 01:30:54 AM EST
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Post #88,640
3/15/03 11:48:00 PM
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Re: We may indeed be speaking at cross-purposes
That's the really scary thing - this von Neumann argument is as far as I can tell, unassailable. It doesn't even depend on something like a propagation speed and so is independent of the limitations of relativity.
-drl
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