"a concept of where 'thoughts' might come from"

Post #83,467 by rcareaga 2/23/03 12:52:11 AM Reply	"a concept of where 'thoughts' might come from" May I suggest Daniel Dennett's astonishing tome Consciousness Explained? I'm not prepared to say, a decade after my first reading, that he has the answer, but his speculations have since that time formed a lens--think of the distributed reflectors of the Keck telescope--through which my own meditations have thereafter been focused. cordially, "Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
Post #83,484 by Ashton 2/23/03 2:04:06 AM Reply	Fresh tofu. Even with such a title, impossible of prose achievement ;-) - shall add to list for a foray.. maybe my pre-judgment is flawed. I seem to recall something in D\ufffddelus with his name on it? but not the content. Then there's Julian Jayne's tonguetwister, The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind :-0 But that seems to be more about, "how we got This way today". Moving --> on. I fully expect never-to-achieve a umm Working-Model for the wetware; at best hope to achieve, a reliable means of disregarding the (mostly-noise) that the brain's (mind's in many?) auto-'thinking' process generates -all on its own-. We Are.. machine-like in our daily operations, most of the time - a hardly original 'thought', that. But it's a start. A delicious irony I can only sometimes grudgingly accept (is) the fact that Language Must have [referents] for its nouns/objects - yet all the Interesting Words manifestly can have no such: like Consciousness or even consciousness. As one esoteric school puts it, "the mind cannot see itself". Yet suggests means by which one might work-around that little 'impossibility'. I suppose this to be the root of my abject nonbelief in something like, The Information Age [!!] or for that matter, (when hubris strikes a young MA-candidate) The Knowlege Age / Age of Reason? etc. and yada. Thanks for tip; never know when one sentence can cause a small implosion, such as we are. Ashton This is your brain on bad interior design. Any questions?
Post #83,488 by rcareaga 2/23/03 3:52:11 AM Reply	Dennett The title is, I think, deliberately provocative and audacious. The prose is clear, workmanlike--sometimes a steep uphill gradient, but never littered with scree. He takes about 200 pages to reach his punchline and then 250 defending it. The punchline is a combination of (1) the once-novel notion, now pretty-much conventional wisdom, that human consciousness is the product of many preconscious subsystems interacting, and (2) the borrowing of Richard Dawkins' 1976 notion of the "meme," which Dennett grabs and runs with (think of the most spectacular kickoff return you ever saw). Does he deliver on the title? As indicated, I was never quite convinced (although his model was more persuasive by far than Jaynes' to my way of thinking), but I believe he might have reached the neighborhood if not the actual address, and provides, in any event, a helluva ride. Also recommended: Dennett's Darwin's Dangerous Idea, AKA Huxley vs Wilberforce: The Rematch (Soapy Sam loses--again). cordially, "Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
Post #83,487 by tseliot 2/23/03 3:27:03 AM Reply	Yeeeesss.... Dennett /grabbing _Dennett and his Critics_ off the book shelf... Not much of a fan of his. Nice to have people floating in the deep end, but I'll continue to wade for a while longer. My current theory (which has as much research behind it as one coming from someone who does not do neurological studies all day can) is this: sleep is the integration of short-term memory into long-term memory. Dreams are your body's reaction to this, hallucinogenic due to various -cholines, and isolated from most motor circuits by the depression of -amines. cf. J. Allan Hobson and Antonio Damasio for that latter chemical bit; first part's mine--developed after reading _GEB_ in high school. This fits well with my own personal experience, at least: when I run short on sleep for a period of time, my dreams begin to have fewer long-term elements; then, when I can catch up on sleep, I find my dreams including elements from further and further back until I reach the point at which I began to seriously lose sleep. Don't know about y'all but I have no difficulty "interpreting" my dreams--the elements are readily mapped to my recent experience. And to boxley, perhaps you're basing dream-interpretation on extreme emotions because your conscious mind naturally puts more focus on them? Dreams have just as many boring or quirky elements as they do anxious or epiphanic ones--don't ignore the boring bits when you develop your theory. :) Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance - Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation. BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
Post #83,511 by boxley 2/23/03 10:11:57 AM Reply	trouble is I dont remember the boring parts much and since I was a child I can self direct dreams. Example, a boring dream that is very vivid I can tell self during sleep to do something else (like changing channels I guess). In a terror dream I can shut off the monster or change it to a bimbo etc. I dont pay much attention to my dreams unless extremely troubled upon waking, so I do ignore the boring ones. Your idea makes plenty of sense though, catagorising and filing the chaff for later. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] \ufffdOmni Gaul Delenda est!\ufffd Ceasar
Post #83,564 by tseliot 2/23/03 6:56:02 PM Reply	Some lyrics which are apropos :) When as a child, I would wake At dawn's early break, My mother'd call my name.... "The day begins anew, What would you like to do?" My answer's always the same.... Just let me slee-ee-eep, For a minute more. Just let me slee-ee-eep, For a minute more. And let me dream, A dream of luxury, A dream of terror, It doesn't matter, If it's in error, All the better, Let me sleep. When I retire, I will wait, Before dawn's early break, For sleep to reclaim my frame... The day begins too soon, What am I going to do? My answer'll still be the same... Just let me slee-ee-eep, For an hour or two. Just let me slee-ee-eep, For an hour or two. And let me dream, A dream of luxury, A dream of terror, It doesn't matter, If it's in error, All the better, Let me sleep. [switching to major key] And when I die, I will wait, Before the pearly gates, St. Peter calls my name... "Your life begins anew, What would you like to do?" My answer'll still be the same... Just let me slee-ee-eep, For a thousand years. Just let me slee-ee-eep, For a thousand years. And let me dream, A dream of luxury, A dream of terror, It doesn't matter, If it's in error, All the better, Let me sleep. Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance - Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation. BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
Post #83,840 by Ashton 2/24/03 5:48:43 PM Reply	Um.. we seem to have that dream, already__:-\ufffd

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