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New Which one?
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New This one...

The vast majority of the economy is, quite simply, out of the control of politicians.

So we can have all the discussions about blaming President A for something and praising President B for something else...when they had little or nothing to do with it.

I love this quote simply because it's the antithesis of Republican philosophy for the last 20 years. Reagan was loved because he offered a tax cut that 'stimulated' the economy (according to Republicans). Hell, the loss of George Bush (I) was due to his tax hike which 'hurt the economy' (according to Republicans).


Personally, I felt this was hogwash. The President of the US can not control the economy (imo). But even Clinton's 8 years of fairly good economic status didn't detour this train of thought, rather Republicans, instead of crediting Clinton with anything, merely stated that Clinton was riding on Reagan's changes (now 20 years into the future).


Ah, but put a Republican president in charge and add a downturn to the economy (which appeared right on schedule) and suddenly the tune changes. Suddenly Presidents can't truly affect the economy and it's fairly foolish to expect them to be able to do so.


Gotta love it.

New Ah...
...so you think its just apologist talk and the Republicans just can't stomach the thought that Clinton did wonderful things and that Bush Jr single handedly has destroyed the economy in 6 months?

And you thought my post was funny?

Tell me...what was it that Bush did to throw my company into this slowdown a full 6 months before he took office?

If he's THAT good...maybe we should send him to countries who's economy we want to destroy....your thinking would have their economy failing before he even booked the flights.

You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Muhahaha

...so you think its just apologist talk and the Republicans just can't stomach the thought that Clinton did wonderful things and that Bush Jr single handedly has destroyed the economy in 6 months?

Amazing...and yet Jimmy Carter must've also did terrible things and Reagan single handedly restored the economy in 6 months. (Oh wait, you believe this!)


BTW: you stated that the President has limited effect on the economy, so now you're blaming Clinton?


New Damn...I thought you could read...
...instead of "read in"

Oh well...I was wrong.

Try to read the first 3 words in the quote...read them SLOWLY...so that you understand that >I< think no such thing.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Oh I know, you left yourself weasel room
with the "Vast majority of..." line. I don't deny that.

But what is interesting is that Reagan is given credit for 'turning around the economy'. Now...somehow, Presidents (for the most part) shouldn't be held accountable for the economy. And yes, you basically said this in--



And the economy thing should just validate the fact that it is not reality that he's speaking about...but his rabidly lopsided viewpoint that has all Republicans as evil, money grubbing satanists...or some such nonsense. Reagan inhereted the worst conomy in the history of this country, save the Depression, and the combined policies (and his appointments) gave us the longest expansion in history. All Clinton had to do was not rock the boat.

[link|http://pub13.ezboard.com/fiwetheypolitics.showMessage?topicID=978.topic&index=20| source ]


New Well...lets see...
First there was the appointment of Greenspan and the reduction of the highest tax brackets.

Then (and the Dems were responsible for this) there was the HUGE increase in federal spending.

All good things from a short term economic viewpoint.

Then...OPEC decided (and this had nothing to do with government...and "decided" is kind of a misnomer) that oil prices should drop.

And...the dollar decided to drop versus the rest of the worlds currencies..leading to a huge increase in foreign capital...mostly Japanese and German...

And...all of these things made folks a little more likely to invest in the stock market...(now we're into the end of Bush and start of Clinton)...and since the market was good...people had more money to spend...which they...of course, did...

Which caused the economy to expand faster...and so on...and so on...

(keep in mind this is an oversimplification...no accounting for large employment and the investment of pensions...etc..on the value of the market...none of which involves gubment)....

Then...something really bad happened...in combination...oil went to $30+ a barrel and natural gas went to $12/mcf and electricity followed (being largely dependent on the above 2 since the "greenies" forced everyone from coal and nuclear). These things were bad enough...but Greenspan...in his first real mistake...helped apply the brakes (which were goiong to be hit regardless) by raising the rates too quickly...leading to investor concern...dropping the market...people have less money...less spending...slower economy...higher energy costs..less profit for industry, less capital investment, job cuts, less consumer spending because of higher unemployment, (insert vicious cycle here)...and now its Sept 2001.

And there's not a damn thing anyone is going to be able to do about it. Not GW, not AL Gore (even if he'd have won), not Clinton and not the ghost of Ronnie.

The exact same thing that caused the disaster in the 70's has successfully squashed this latest expansion. All we can do now is soften the blow (reduce taxes...done...drop interest rates...done) and ride it out. The "experts" were saying it would last into the 4th qtr 2001...the indicators I see in doing my daily grind point to sometime in the 3rd qtr 2002. (of course...I'm not in government employ...so I don't have to worry about making anybody feel better)
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Well, I think you're still looking at the trees too much...
but it's a fair assessment of the forest. There was a fairly nice upswing in the early 80's followed by a normal decline (which Bush senior got blamed for, imo). Clinton caught the end of the downswing and rode it back on the up and the economy as a whole has been about ready to go back to a downswing. (These downswing generally last 2-4 years, imo).

But then again, I don't think Presidents can have any effect on the economy. Blaming Bush for the economy is as silly as praising Reagan for his.


What I find interesting is that certain people are changing their tunes...

New Presidential politics...
...for what they're worth...are just that....

They will get credit or blame for what happens on their watch.

However...

I find it interesting that Ronnie got blamed for the deficits....since his action was to lower taxes...which increased government revenue (just as it should...anti-intuitive as it may seem)

I find it interesting that the slams around here have GW responsible for the current economic slump...even though it had started almost a year before he took office.

And some of the folks around here just seem to think that one side is BAD and one side is GOOD...and Ashton has it all figured out...that both sides are the same and the rest is just semantic bullshit.

Some of the other things that bother me lately...the Democrats distancing themselves from Condit...when the only thing he did was sleep with an intern and then lie about it for a couple of months.

And...what fun would arguing about politics be...if someone didn't come in here and take the other side...it'd just be one big liberal love-fest around here without me...(with some exceptions that I know of...being even more hard line Libertarian than myself.

Whoopee!
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
     Question for all you Repo apologists out there... - (jb4) - (59)
         As opposed to... - (Another Scott) - (5)
             How's that? - (mmoffitt) - (4)
                 A couple of examples. - (Another Scott) - (3)
                     Wow, are those nits ever small - (drewk)
                     I am unmoved. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                         Jimmy sure was a different President. - (inthane-chan)
         He'll take the tobacco defense - (GBert)
         Odds that we run a deficit b4 the Resident is out of office? -NT - (mmoffitt) - (1)
             I'm not taking that bet (regardless of the odds)! -NT - (jb4)
         Out of curiosity, what are you talking about? Budgets? - (wharris2)
         Question for all you Repo doubters - (rsf) - (10)
             As with most other politicians, telling when Bush is lying- - (DonRichards) - (2)
                 In this case, however - (wharris2) - (1)
                     I think you have it right - (DonRichards)
             Try to follow along here, now... - (jb4) - (6)
                 Re: Try to follow along here, now... - (wharris2)
                 Re: Try to follow along here, now... - (bepatient) - (4)
                     Well...if it's their programs and their budget... - (Simon_Jester) - (2)
                         I'm sure there's some... - (bepatient) - (1)
                             I want every penny of that surplus - (wharris2)
                     IT'S BAAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCCCCCCCK! - (mmoffitt)
         Link to Sources - (Simon_Jester) - (1)
             surplus, what surplus? - (boxley)
         Hee Hee - (deSitter) - (35)
             Ho Ho - (rsf) - (34)
                 Jabbering is no use - (deSitter) - (30)
                     About that '92-2000 period... - (inthane-chan) - (1)
                         Denonthinker - (wharris2)
                     Jabbering is no use - agreed - (rsf)
                     Why don't you tie those dates... - (bepatient) - (23)
                         I musta been sleeping for 8 years, but... - (jb4) - (22)
                             slap slap - (wharris2)
                             Huh? - (bepatient) - (20)
                                 hoorah! someone who understands basic economics! - (boxley) - (5)
                                     Capital Formation - (Decco Dave) - (2)
                                         the availability of capital has nothing to do with govt - (boxley)
                                         There is a small effect... - (bepatient)
                                     So lemme get this striaght.. - (jb4) - (1)
                                         according to me yeah, propaganda value only -NT - (boxley)
                                 Why that's.. that's - unDemocrat AND unRepublican!! of you \ufffd -NT - (Ashton) - (2)
                                     That may be the nicest thing said to me in this forum:) -NT - (bepatient) - (1)
                                         I had at times suspected that, behind that calm facade - (Ashton)
                                 Policies can have some impact - (wharris2) - (10)
                                     LOL! - (Simon_Jester) - (9)
                                         Which one? -NT - (bepatient) - (8)
                                             This one... - (Simon_Jester) - (7)
                                                 Ah... - (bepatient) - (6)
                                                     Muhahaha - (Simon_Jester) - (5)
                                                         Damn...I thought you could read... - (bepatient) - (4)
                                                             Oh I know, you left yourself weasel room - (Simon_Jester) - (3)
                                                                 Well...lets see... - (bepatient) - (2)
                                                                     Well, I think you're still looking at the trees too much... - (Simon_Jester) - (1)
                                                                         Presidential politics... - (bepatient)
                     Clearly not so. - (Another Scott) - (2)
                         Nancy - (rsf)
                         Bizarre :) - (deSitter)
                 Re: Ho Ho - (kelzer) - (2)
                     Can we get an AMEN! -NT - (bepatient)
                     But can G. be blamed for the massive gullibility that Was - (Ashton)

There's no wraith like an Old wraith.
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