But they don't.

Post #64,978 by bepatient 11/25/02 5:50:25 PM Reply	But they don't. Those who bring frivolous lawsuits bear no consequence. They pay nothing. Their lawyers, who convince them to sue bear no consequences. They pay nothing. We do, in taxes, to support their right to bring action....which, by the way, they should continue to have. Those involved are rarely, if ever, taking responsibility for their own actions. Think the guy who broke into the Montgomery Wards store and slipped might not have slipped had he been there when the store was >open for business<? Its not the fact that the lawsuits happen. Its the >ridiculous< levels of compensation that are awarded and the absolute inability of anyone to see that "contributory negligence"...a term that used to exist...does not any longer...so if you are stupid enough to use an electrical appliance in the shower and ge electrocuted...the manufacturer of that product should be completely responsible and pay you millions. (ummm...not) Where the danger lies is in medicine. If a doctor does not acheive perfection, then our system makes that doctor liable to be sued for 10s of millions of dollars. Who does this benefit? Insurance companies. Who does it penalize, the doctors and the patients (mostly those without access to insurance). So do you want to revise who the victims are? Oh...sorry...was I being to pro-corporate for your taste?...because rewarding idiocy somehow must be the perview of all economic endeavors? Take a look at who wins and who loses with your eyes open for once. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #65,014 by a6l6e6x 11/25/02 8:49:34 PM Reply	A sample web link. [link\|http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/04/08/health/main505592.shtml\|Doctors' Walkout In South Texas.] Doctors in the Rio Grande Valley are blaming skyrocketing medical malpractice insurance rates on the region's litigious climate and record of large jury awards. Alex "Let others praise ancient times; I am glad I was born in these."\t-- Ovid (43 B.C.-A.D. 18)
Post #65,039 by Ashton 11/25/02 11:00:36 PM Reply	Rather nicely covered on 60 Minutes, last night. Still...... Including - the unintended consequences: Drs. fleeing, UPS trucks won't deliver. Not the whole story but - a good vignette. One woman gave an overview, from the visceral level.. ~ "it's about the only way any poor folks around here are ever gonna see any (money?)" Sure it's a scam - tell me again how it differs from Golden Parachutes, 'cancelled' personal loans and off-shore bank accounts. Two wrongs don't make a right? They may.. in unrestrained vulture capitalism. And WE know how to 'un r e s t r a i n' better than Anyone. Them l33T have been on a roll since the '80s - already got away with a few hundred bill. via the S&L test run. It worked! That money.. wasn't returned, just evanesced ?? though a sacrificial pigeon got a few years in Golf Prison. The money is NEVER returned! (Think anyone noticed?) C'mon beep - we be inherently a corrupt bunch; can't get Rich without it! We just talk so mellifluously about Truth Decency Responsibility that.. a few get suckered into believing that CIEIO actually meant it! (Not so often of late, though..) Ashton Would you buy a used Tempo from a guy who said, "I'm as honest as the CEO of __"? Well.. wouldja?
Post #65,100 by bepatient 11/26/02 7:53:26 AM Reply	But if I were to interpret.... ...your vast body of posts on the subject... Why would you want them to get rich...and put themselves in that top 2% of those evil bastards ;) You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #65,248 by Ashton 11/26/02 7:46:03 PM Reply	New blood, and with real-life Experience, not just an MBA.
Post #65,259 by bepatient 11/26/02 8:39:18 PM Reply	I thought those were the ball players ;-) You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #65,044 by Silverlock 11/25/02 11:18:25 PM Reply	Is abuse of tort that widespread? I truly hadn't realized that tort cases had become so overwhemlingly tilted in favor of the consumer. My perception of the news articles I've seen/read is somewhat different. The types of cases you refer to are in the minority. Those few that make it past an initial discovery hearing are sometimes in the news, but let's get real, the record of corps is in this area is a textbook example of venality. Without a realistic punishment for proven corporate "profit beats all other considerations" practices, how can we stop them from selling cars that explode on impact from the rear? (GM case you may have heard of. The internal memo said {paraphrased} "The lawsuits will cost us less than the recall"). Why should we ask our military to die for cheap oil when the rest of us aren't even being asked to get better mileage? -[link\|http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=14107\|Molly Ivins]
Post #65,061 by boxley 11/26/02 12:56:19 AM Reply	the issue I have on tort reform is class actions In Jupiter Florida we have a lawyer who has his own personal 747 to get to cases. My thinking is more power to him until I learn that as a ford owner I am part of a class that gets a settled $300.00 discount on a new vehicle if I register for the class and the attourneys get $300 million to split(amongst a lot of attourneys I imagine) Tort reform I would like to see is that class action suits upon winning one attourney fees are davis baconed instead of a split of the award. The lawyers would be paid an hourly rate and all expended fees and the "class" would get the award. Now this might limit lawyers wanting to gamble on big cases but not as much as you might think. If the case is egregious enough, a lawyer will take it. A quick spin into federal court when a class extends across state lines would stop Jury hunting as well. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] GRAYBOAR-Strangleur Extraodinaire "Have Thumbs Will Travel" Customised Asphyxiations No Gullet Too Big, No Weasand Too small My Motto Satisfaction Garoteed, or the Chokes on Me! Eric Flint
Post #65,075 by mhuber 11/26/02 1:53:42 AM Reply	My proposal for a reform: The lawyers take their share in the same form as the plaintiffs. Got this idea when I got a "settlement" from a BlockBuster Video lawsuit. No, I didn't file for it, it appeared on my receipt when I rented a video. Anyway, the settlement was a set of coupons, identical in form and value to those that the company was in the habit of giving out for promotional purposes anyway. So I got maybe $10 worth of "buy one get one free" that cost the company (assuming the older coupon strategy was not a mistake) literaly less than nothing (net) and I realized that some law firm was getting $5 worth of liquid currency for getting me that. A few weeks earlier I got a letter to the effect that a cruise ship company had overcharged me (as a member of a class) for docking fees or some such. I got, and my wife got, $25 coupons off the cost of our next cruise. Those coupons have expired - cruises are a luxury we can only afford once in a very long time, and $25 each doesn't shorten that time by much. But I'm sure the law firm got their 30% in a form they could deposit at the bank. Now, maybe if the lawyers got what the plaintiffs got, things would work out a bit differently. And the other reform: no closed court records except for blacking out very specificaly identified trade or personal secrets that do not materialy affect the outcome. ---- Whatever
Post #65,165 by jb4 11/26/02 1:08:36 PM Reply	Hey, I LIKE it! good idea...never pass our Corporate Senate, tho.... jb4 "They lead. They don't manage. The carrot always wins over the stick. Ask your horse. You can lead your horse to water, but you can't manage him to drink." Richard Kerr, United Technologies Corporation, 1990
Post #65,102 by bepatient 11/26/02 8:23:01 AM Reply	What you don't hear is worse... ....its the hundreds of spurious lawsuits that never make the courts. Easier and cheaper to defend by giving up. Insurance pays. Then they raise rates to continue to make profits. Lawyers get rich. Insurance companies get rich. Services get more expensive...so those who don't sue get hurt. I agree its a get rich quick mentality that is spurning it on...but the system fosters it by these idiotic rulings that make all the press. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #65,170 by mhuber 11/26/02 1:33:27 PM Reply	Aren't they mostly between insurance companies? Lots and lots of lawsuits are not some poor schmoe trying to get rich, but two or more insurance companies deciding which has to pay a valid claim. Your health insurance contract probably has a clause in it that could force you to file a lawsuit that you wouldn't consider reasonable, one of those slip and fall kinds of things. And let's not forget that a good many suits are really caused by the defendant ignoring responsibilities. ---- Whatever
Post #65,193 by bepatient 11/26/02 3:20:19 PM Reply	I'm not saying... ...there are no valid lawsuits. Only that >abuse< of the system has caused harm to more than just big corporations. This is why I tried to focus the argument on the healthcare industry. Ford deserved to pay millions for things like Pinto, Explorer et all. There was gross negligence involved. I would not consider these spurious lawsuits. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #65,164 by jb4 11/26/02 1:03:35 PM Reply	So how do you handle this? A doctor fucks up. They do that, you know. Now I don't know about you BeeP, but I believe that a doctor who fucks up (the implication of that verb, BTW, implies negligence, stupidity, arrogance, and/or less than one's best effort) should be held responsible...you know responsibility for one's actions. Now, why should a doctor who fucks up be indemnified from his/her actions? Because s/he is a doctor? Not hardly. And if the result of that action is a person in a persistent vegitative state, then the doctor should be responsible for "making that good" (insofar as that is possible). It could likely cost 10s of millions of dollars over that patient's lifetime to support him/her. (Especially given the cost of medical care that is rising exponentially exclusive of the cost of your so-called frivolous lawsuits.) Now, why isn't this patient entitled to those 10s of millions? Because the doctor is a doctor? Not hardly. How would you handle this scenario in your world? jb4 "They lead. They don't manage. The carrot always wins over the stick. Ask your horse. You can lead your horse to water, but you can't manage him to drink." Richard Kerr, United Technologies Corporation, 1990
Post #65,198 by bepatient 11/26/02 3:45:33 PM Reply	Valid claim And that person is entitled to that continuing care and that lawsuit would not be spurious. In other words...a good "reform" of the system would allow these claims to still be upheld. Reform is centered around non-economic damages. The damages you described are certainly economic damages. But...it seems that you think that I'm only out to protect the big, key corporate interests. Funny...I thought it might be nice to have a family doctor...instead of one appointed by the only people left that can afford to hire them...big corporations...so I'm finding your knee-jerk reaction to your "perception" of my position to be just on the other side of hysterical...let alone completely wrong. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #65,254 by Ashton 11/26/02 8:14:19 PM Reply	Yup - it's about Trust. There isn't any (much) left I don't believe we (as a society) have ever meant to face the underlying conflicts.. Recall when 'nurse' and 'teacher' were 'callings'? You expected to deliver endless and meticulous attention - and to be paid peanuts. Because (mostly then) you were a woman. Etc. Now 'we' have observed that Doctors are not gods; and not-only those, either. Have gotten off our knees - and are amidst the problem of distribution of largesse from the 'Left-eye cataracts-Only' surgeon, on down to the floor scrubber after the operation (I hear that in China the MDs clean up their own OR afterwards. Maybe sometimes humility is worth the price of a little inefficiency?) Anyway.. no wonder there shall be no consensus on where and how to extricate ourselves from the omnipresent Greed-demon, usually at the seat of all turf-wars. Now if next.. Greed were to be re-recognized as a human affliction and not the Meaning of Life, why - Ashton what would a Dictator do to Fix Things? (hmmm shall we see?)
Post #65,414 by jb4 11/27/02 9:58:57 AM Reply	Hysterical...? ...you ain't seen hysterical yet, buddy!!! ;-) (BTW, have a happy Thanksgiving, BeeP!. Looking forwared to sparring with you again after the holidays...) jb4 "They lead. They don't manage. The carrot always wins over the stick. Ask your horse. You can lead your horse to water, but you can't manage him to drink." Richard Kerr, United Technologies Corporation, 1990
Post #65,453 by bepatient 11/27/02 12:02:12 PM Reply	Hee hee.... ...sure I have...maybe not from you (yet)...but certainly I have. Happy Turkey backatcha! Like any good capitalist..I like mine cooked "golden" ;-) Hoo hoo haw haw ! /me picks himself off the floor...clutching sides before splitting :-) You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #65,454 by jb4 11/27/02 12:18:38 PM Reply	smartass.... jb4 "They lead. They don't manage. The carrot always wins over the stick. Ask your horse. You can lead your horse to water, but you can't manage him to drink." Richard Kerr, United Technologies Corporation, 1990
Post #65,455 by bepatient 11/27/02 12:20:49 PM Reply	:-) You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]

Welcome to IWETHEY!