Hey, you came up with the idea . . .

Post #52,953 by Andrew Grygus 9/24/02 1:15:12 AM Reply	Hey, you came up with the idea . . . . . so I think the honor should fall to you. I wouldn't want to step between you and the accolades you so rightly deserve. I have a whole CD of nice fonts from Bitstream I use under OS/2 (True Type and Type 1), but it cost nearly $100, and the Linux folks aren't into paying for stuff. That's a problem - unlike kernel hacking, font work yields no community Brownie points, so decent fonts have to be paid for. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #52,959 by rickmoen 9/24/02 3:05:05 AM Reply	Gosh, Uncle Andrew, please explain this to us I have a whole CD of nice fonts from Bitstream I use under OS/2 (True Type and Type 1), but it cost nearly $100, and the Linux folks aren't into paying for stuff. That's a problem - unlike kernel hacking, font work yields no community Brownie points, so decent fonts have to be paid for. Gosh, you're saying that a big collection of nice fonts requires someone spending a lot of money? Gosh, I wish I'd said that! Hey, wait: I did say that. So, explain to me again, please, how it is that you expect a freely-redistributable operating system to suddenly and magically sprout a sizeable set of painstakingly made fonts? I'm unclear on how you expect this to work, since disappointingly you're not going to buy and donate the required copyrights, after all. I'm easily confused about these sorts of details, but have faith that you have them all worked out. If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
Post #53,000 by drewk 9/24/02 10:38:44 AM Reply	Rick, he's agreeing with you Despite what may seem overwhelming evidence to the contrary, not every reply to something you write is arguing with you. It seemed to me that Andrew was agreeing that his system does fonts nicely because he paid for it. And it seems his suggestion for how "a freely-redistributable operating system [could] suddenly and magically sprout a sizeable set of painstakingly made fonts" was for you to do it, since it was your idea. ;) === Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #53,092 by rickmoen 9/24/02 8:22:52 PM Reply	Re: Rick, he's agreeing with you As a reminder, I was commenting on this: Personally, I think the Linux community should be developing fonts rather than depending on Microsoft's[...]. For the most part, "the community" is saying, "Everything's just fine, no problem, nothing to do" on these issues. [...] Linux still trails very badly on these features[...]. it isn't going to be worth beans on the desktop until these issues are resolved. I was, in effect, mildly mocking a tendency I see rather frequently: Poster foo grandly pronounces that "the Linux community needs" item bar, "should be developing" bar, and "isn't going to be worth beans on the desktop" unless and until bar. And then we're supposed to nod our heads approvingly at this sage admonition. But wait! Don't I already have the built-in ability to use basically just about every font format in every Linux system under the sun? Indeed I do. I happen to really like ITC Garamond, for example, and so paid a bunch for it around 1993, and keep migrating the Type 1 files to newer systems. So, if the secret sauce for "desktop computing" is ability to use a shitload of expensive fonts, that's a solved problem. Andrew obviously couldn't be talking about that. So, he must mean..., um.... somebody unspecified needs to spend years acquiring expertise at typeface design and implementation, and conduct the large amounts of painstaking work to develop a bunch of new, high-quality typefaces and donate them to "the Linux community", whoever they are. Or perhaps the suggestion is that some eccentric millionaire buy a bunch of existing ones towards the same end. Or perhaps the suggestion was pretty much verbal doodling. Not that I object. I just think it adds to the performance-art value to try to find a mechanism that might produce the suggested outcome. If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
Post #53,093 by boxley 9/24/02 8:25:30 PM Reply	Minor OT does anyone know the life of a typeface patent? Some older styles registered in the 1800's or later must be free game by now. Rendering is not that dificult is it? thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] qui mori didicit servire dedidicit
Post #53,100 by Another Scott 9/24/02 8:46:23 PM Reply	Aren't they copyrighted or trademarked, not patented? E.g. [link\|http://www.carpetdoctor.com/stuff/legal_stuff_and_copyright_inform.htm\|this] page of credits for some web page... It seems that [link\|http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/tac/tmfaq.htm#Application015\|trademarks ] last indefinitely if renewed every 10 years. But IANAL. Cheers, Scott.
Post #53,158 by drewk 9/25/02 9:35:56 AM Reply	Yup, that's just what he's talking about So, if the secret sauce for "desktop computing" is ability to use a shitload of expensive fonts, that's a solved problem. Andrew obviously couldn't be talking about that. Did you forget where you said: So, the obvious solution is for someone to buy the copyrights to a bunch of high-quality professional typefaces with painstakingly performed hinting, and donate them to the Linux community. I nominate you. ;-) And he responded: Hey, you came up with the idea . . . . . so I think the honor should fall to you. <snip> I have a whole CD of nice fonts from Bitstream I use under OS/2 (True Type and Type 1), but it cost nearly $100, and the Linux folks aren't into paying for stuff. That's a problem - unlike kernel hacking, font work yields no community Brownie points, so decent fonts have to be paid for. IOW you said the "solution" to the "problem" was for someone to buy and donate a shitload of good founts. Andrew said he agreed and suggested, in accordance with your oft-stated advice that the one who suggests it gets to implement it, that you go ahead and do it. He went on to point out that this is not happening because font support seems not to be important to enough people for it to be happening. Which goes back to his original point: Linux on the desktop is being held up by inadequate font support. "Font support" must include some fonts for it to be meaningful. The "Linux community" seems not to be concerned enough with fonts to bother creating some. Therefore the Linux community is not interested in Linux on the desktop. QED. === Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #53,254 by rickmoen 9/25/02 6:31:16 PM Reply	Re: Yup, that's just what he's talking about Did you forget where you said: The satire-challenged we will always have with us. "Font support" must include some fonts for it to be meaningful. So, if you want 'em, buy 'em. Your arm broken? Space aliens controlling your mind so that you can use only bits and bytes that all come in a single shrinkwrapped box? What we have here is the time-honoured argument from inertness, beloved of comp.os.*.advocacy time-wasters for the last decade, and usable to meaninglessly bolster just about any position. If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
Post #53,304 by drewk 9/26/02 9:05:23 AM Reply	Yes, I got the satire Problem is the solution you (satirically) suggested is currently the only solution. Which again (for the reading what is written challenged) is exatcly the point Andrew was making.[1] So, if you want 'em, buy 'em. Your arm broken? I thought you supported Free (and free) software? I thought you spent quite a bit of time maintaining pages about how people can make that software work? I thought this meant you actually care that people are able to use that software? So here's the question: Why is it when someone says their problem is that their distribution doesn't support their obscure video card out of the box, you'll help them with that; but when their problem is that their distribution doesn't have decent font support (because there arent' many decent fonts included) your solution is for them to go buy it then? If "go buy it" is an acceptable solution for font support, couldn't you save a lot of time by telling everyone who asks a question to just go buy the latest version of Windows? You are doing exactly the thing that non-Linux users find so elitist. It's not a problem you seem to think is important, so you tell them to just go buy something. [1] I'm not defending him because I don't think he can do it himself, but because I hapopen to agree with his point. A point you seem determined to ignore. === Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #54,182 by rickmoen 10/1/02 5:24:32 AM Reply	Reality is not optional. -- Thomas Sowell The frelling forum software keeps accepting this post but then not posting it, so I guess I'll try posting it in pieces. I thought you supported Free (and free) software? 1. I support clarity. 2. Your clumsy attempt to gratuitously personalise a technical discussion is hereby politely declined. So here's the question: Why is it when someone says their problem is that their distribution doesn't support their obscure video card out of the box, you'll help them with that; but when their problem is that their distribution doesn't have decent font support (because there arent' many decent fonts included) your solution is for them to go buy it then? Hey, thanks! I collect silly rhetorical questions, and appreciate the donation. But when I'm bored, I also answer those selfsame silly rhetorical questions, so let's have a shot at your magnificent specimen: 1. I see no such person. 2. I therefore don't see his problem. 3. Although I'm not up for solving hypothetical problems at this moment, I'll be glad to flip you a shiny hypothetical nickel, if it'll help you buy an answer. 4. In as much as there was no person coming to me, and thus no person coming to me with the described problem, either, you are incorrect that I have handed that person any particular "solution", let alone the one you killed several innocent electrons over.
Post #54,184 by ben_tilly 10/1/02 5:43:15 AM Reply	The source is available Patches welcome. :-) Honestly, this bug seems to be new and Scott is looking into it. Cheers, Ben "Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly." - [link\|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html\|Walter Mead]
Post #54,335 by admin 10/1/02 1:34:39 PM Reply	Fixed. It appears that a static library in the Zope->PostgreSQL chain got fuxn0red somewhere. Restart all fixxy fixxy. I'm disturbed that such measures were necessary, however. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #54,380 by ben_tilly 10/1/02 9:23:25 PM Reply	Thankee And I am likewise bothered. But understand that there isn't too much you can do now to track it down. :-( Cheers, Ben "Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly." - [link\|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html\|Walter Mead]
Post #54,225 by drewk 10/1/02 9:39:13 AM Reply	Fine, bad example I wasn't sure I had ever seen you address an unsupported video card, but it seemed the type of thing you would have addressed. Since you don't like that one, I'll take one from [link\|http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/#winmodem\|own page]. That's an awful lot of work to explain how or why someone can or can't use a winmodem. Shouldn't you have just said, "Buy Windows"? After all, that's your answer for me: just buy something that does what I want. To clarify, I'm not saying that your suggestion to me was in any way inaccurate. What I'm saying is that there are people working to make windmodems function under Linux. You helpfully point them out for anyone who asks. But when someone mentions fonts your only suggestion is to go buy some. (Or make them or commission them, of course.) There are free fonts available, but you didn't point any of them out. The difference in your responses appears to indicate that you are less concerned with font support than with modem support. If you don't care about font support, then maybe you shouldn't bother contributing to discussions about font support. === Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #54,333 by rickmoen 10/1/02 1:21:51 PM Reply	You have no idea how bad an example There are free fonts available, but you didn't point any of them out. In the first place, I was taking as given Andrew's sermon: Personally, I think the Linux community should be developing fonts rather than depending on Microsoft's. Unfortunately, it's tedious work that brings little fame in the kernel hacker community, so it's not being done (to my knowledge). The biggest shortcomings of Linux are: Software installation (a real zoo) Fonts Printing. For the most part, "the community" is saying, "Everything's just fine, no problem, nothing to do" on these issues. Users went from DOS to Windows primarily for font handling and consistent printing, not for any other reason, yet Linux still trails very badly on these features, and even worse on software installation. it isn't going to be worth beans on the desktop until these issues are resolved. Now, I tend to mostly tune out when I hear the words "Personally, I think the Linux community should...", since what follows is almost always empty rhetoric about how the rest of the world should solve the speaker's perceived problems. In this case, I happen to be aware of a recent study of freely distributable typefaces by a Debian developer incidental to a discussion on the debian-legal mailing list. It turns out that depressingly few of the typefaces commonly distributed in Linux distributions are lawful. The vast majority are proprietary fonts distributed without any particular grant of permission from the copyright holders, who fortunately so far have not seen fit to sue for copyright violation. For that reason and also passing acquaintance with a couple of dozen past and present Linux distributions, I call bullshit on your implicit assumption that there are lawfully available free-of-charge typefaces floating around somewhere in the memesphere that have somehow been negligently omitted from Linux distributions by arrogant computer geeks who don't care how anything looks. If anything, Linux distributions' typeface collection -- including Debian's -- have been pretty much uniformly overinclusive and legally risky. Which basically means that, as I said, someone who doesn't like the (supposedly) freely distributable typefaces at hand may (1) buy more, (2) make more, or (3) pay to have more made. In light of which, I note the particular irony of Andrew (and you) claiming "the Linux community" is saying merely "Everything's just fine, no problem, nothing to do", when in fact I've succinctly listed all possible remedies. Twice, now. Now, if you're quite done with the ignorant impugning of my and other people's motives, I think I have a lint collection to sort. If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
Post #54,344 by drewk 10/1/02 3:22:16 PM Reply	Re: You have no idea how bad an example For that reason and also passing acquaintance with a couple of dozen past and present Linux distributions, I call bullshit on your implicit assumption that there are lawfully available free-of-charge typefaces floating around somewhere in the memesphere that have somehow been negligently omitted from Linux distributions by arrogant computer geeks who don't care how anything looks. Stunning logic. Most distributions are shipped with non-legal fonts. Therefore there are no legal fonts that can be shipped. Try [link\|http://www.google.com/search?q=free+fonts+gpl\|this]. Of course GPL [link\|http://www.xfree86.org/pipermail/fonts/2001-October/000931.html\|might not be] the way to go for fonts, so maybe you'd prefer the ones available under a [link\|http://www.google.com/search?q=free+fonts\|standard freeware license]. (Hey look, I can reference newsgroups, too!) And now I call bullshit on your stated assumption that I blame "arrogant computer geeks who don't care how anything looks" for the lack of legal fonts in current distributions. I'm specifically calling you an arrogant copmputer geek. And while I don't make any assumptions about whether you care how things look, I have reached the conclusion that you are less concerned with fonts than with other issues you deign to address. On the winmodem issue, you could just as easily have enumerated the options, "Buy a real modem or buy Windows," and left it there. But you went further to explain why this was the case, and pointed to projects underway to provide a third alternative. With fonts, "buy them, make them or commission them" is not a comprehensive list of options. There is also, "Find someone with the ability to create them, and convince them that doing so would be a benefit to the Free Software community." You have apparently not been convinced, though the existence of several projects to address this issue indicates others have been. === Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #54,955 by rickmoen 10/4/02 8:05:25 PM Reply	And so we wave a fond farewell Stunning logic. Indeed. And I note that you have declined to cite any examples whatsoever of high-quality, freely redistributable fonts carelessly omitted from Linux distributions. Because, you see, my trolling little friend, they aren't there: Assemblers of Linux distributions of my acquaintance do look high and low for such things, and include what's available. (I note your non-sequitur GPL fixation without comment. Ditto the ongoing, unsuccessful attempt to personalise a technical discussion.) And now, having made my point twice, I invoke Khendon's Law. Have fun. If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
Post #54,956 by deSitter 10/4/02 8:17:55 PM 10/4/02 10:47:06 PM Reply	Re: And so we wave a fond farewell -drl Edited by deSitter Oct. 4, 2002, 10:47:06 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #55,031 by static 10/5/02 3:00:58 AM Reply	He rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, didn't he? "Ah. One of the difficult questions."
Post #55,034 by rickmoen 10/5/02 3:41:14 AM Reply	Perspiring minds want to know: He rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, didn't he? Purely in the name of science: Would that be the "way" that spontaneously produces emotional tantrums and non-sequitur personal attacks from several posters -- or is that response reflexive in them, regardless of the rubbing vector? If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
Post #55,050 by folkert 10/5/02 10:32:19 AM Reply	Naw... He's just jealous Jealous of your color of your locks of hair and your joyful personality... People around here are just overly sensitive... and forget the disclaimer. Here is the snippet from the zIWETHEY disclaimer: More than likely, z.iwethey.org ("Z" from this point forward) will contain material that is sensitive, vulgar and offensive to someone who has nothing better to do... other than to be over-sensitive, upset and offended. "Z" is for entertainment purposes only... mostly the it's core users... but still, it's for fun. We do not actively pursue nor advocate mud-slinging, name-calling or the teasing and fun-making of the "mistakes" of others, as our vocations. We choose do it on our free time. "Z" should not be taken seriously, but, if you are browsing "Z", and someone thinks you are pretty much a "DOLT" or `<insert favorite disparaging remark>`, you may want to plead your case to the others... or Bryce<tablizer> please seek professional help. Please include a clear and concise explanation supporting your case, with supporting links and documentation. All flames will be routed to `/dev/null` and ignored unless, however, we derive amusement from it and choose to add to it, at your expense. We, here at "Z", strive for excellence in presentation. We may or may not be going to hell, but, if that's our fate, we will be on our way to the gates, knowing we somehow smoked you. The material presented in this site and its intended purpose are obvious... hence its name. If you are coming here, you are aware of the intention and point of its content. If you don't know what IWETHEY stands for, well then, to bad, you came here of your own valition. So as you can see, it is clearly covered. It even covers Bryce by name... `greg - Grand-Master Artist in IT, curley95@attbi.com -- [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!!!] Your friendly Homeland Security Officer reminds: Hold Thumbprint to Screen for 5 seconds, we'll take the imprint, or Just continue to type on your keyboard, and we'll just sample your DNA.`
Post #55,236 by static 10/7/02 7:22:44 AM Reply	Do you really not know? I'm surprised. "Ah. One of the difficult questions."
Post #55,063 by boxley 10/5/02 1:10:13 PM Reply	Squeek doesnt bother me and sometimes even adds something useful to the conversation around here. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] qui mori didicit servire dedidicit
Post #54,183 by rickmoen 10/1/02 5:25:21 AM Reply	Reality is not optional. -- Thomas Sowell But, wait... I think I've found a few minutes to kill. Let's hypothesise that someone came to me urging me to solve his problem with sucky fonts on some nameless Linux distribution. He pleads with me to tell him what he can do. So, I tell him: "Son, as I see it, the following options are open to you: 1. Buy typefaces you prefer. 2. Create some. 3. Commission their creation." I'd twist my moustache thoughtfully, and then add "Yep, that would seem to about cover it." Now, is there some particular part of the truth you don't like, or is it the entire package? If "go buy it" is an acceptable solution for font support, couldn't you save a lot of time by telling everyone who asks a question to just go buy the latest version of Windows? Well, there certainly are people I recommend to go get MS-Windows -- preferably good and hard. You are doing exactly the thing that non-Linux users find so elitist. That's 'cuz I'm evil. Folks, bring on the next troll, please. This one's been out in the sun too long, and is obviously getting stoned. If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.

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