A large increment :-P

Post #424,993 by drook 8/2/18 10:50:15 AM 8/2/18 10:50:15 AM Reply	A large increment :-P -- Drew
Post #424,996 by mmoffitt 8/2/18 2:39:36 PM 8/2/18 2:39:36 PM Reply	Real change doesn't come incrementally. TFP. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #424,997 by Another Scott 8/2/18 3:04:20 PM 8/2/18 3:04:20 PM Reply	Actual Progress is Always Incremental. The entire history of this country, and probably the entire history of humanity, tells us that. Is there some perfect piece of legislation or social contact that you can point to that was perfect from the beginning and was never revised? Some non-tyrrannical revolution and revolutionary government that wasn't revised over time? (The caveats are to cover the Khmer Rouge who I assume you wouldn't cite as a "real change" to be emulated...) Even the 10 Commandments were revised before they finally took effect. ;-) Sheesh. Cheers, Scott.
Post #424,998 by drook 8/2/18 3:18:03 PM 8/2/18 3:18:03 PM Reply	These fifteen [crash] ... Ten ... These ten commandments ... -- Drew
Post #425,004 by mmoffitt 8/3/18 9:05:23 AM 8/3/18 9:05:23 AM Reply	Some counter-examples to your argument. 1. The Second French Revolution. 2. The American Revolution. 3. The February Revolution in Tsarist Russia. Were all of these revised later? Of course. I never suggested "real change" was never to be revised. I only said that real change didn't come about through incremental changes. I hope we can agree that my three examples above resulted in "real change." Now, you point to something, heck, anything that was incremental about those three counter-examples. ;0) Moreover, in the case of Russia, do you think the Duma under the Tsar would ever have gotten the same amount of change from their incremental work if that work had been allowed to continue as the February Revolution accomplished in short order? bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #425,008 by Another Scott 8/3/18 10:23:15 AM 8/3/18 10:23:15 AM Reply	Meh. I doubt that American slaves would say that the Revolution was "real change"... Similarly for women. And similarly for people who didn't own property and weren't eligible to vote. On the rest of your examples, no time to check. The point is, for every example of "Real Change" that you can point to, I can point to people who lived through it and saw none of it. "Real Change" for them came later. Progress is incremental. "Meet the new boss - Same as the old boss"... HTH. Cheers, Scott.
Post #425,017 by mmoffitt 8/3/18 3:28:31 PM 8/3/18 3:28:31 PM Reply	I'd call "Ending a Monarchy" a pretty big real change. YMMV. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #425,027 by Another Scott 8/4/18 12:19:49 AM 8/4/18 12:19:49 AM Reply	How so? Franklin and Washington and lots and lots of the Founders were extremely wealthy men. Women couldn't vote. Blacks were enslaved. People who didn't own land couldn't vote. Rich white guys were running the show before the Revolution. Rich white guys were running the show after the Revolution. Americans had elected representatives before the Revolution. Americans had elected representatives after the Revolution. Etc. Don't get me wrong - the American Revolution was a Big Deal™. But holding it up as an example of Real Change™ is arguing semantics. Politics change, what's politically possible changes, progress is incremental. Refusing to accept important incremental progress because it doesn't go far - when the alternative is *nothing* - is shooting yourself (and those below you in the social strata) in the foot. Purity kills. Cheers, Scott.
Post #425,029 by mmoffitt 8/4/18 7:39:39 AM 8/4/18 7:39:39 AM Reply	And incremental change poses no threat to your status, right? That's really why it''s better, no? bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #425,033 by Another Scott 8/4/18 8:56:21 AM 8/4/18 8:56:21 AM Reply	(sigh) I'm not a 1%er who only hangs out with other 1%ers and lives in a gated compound. Life is much better for me when kids I encounter are happy and see a bright future for themselves and I don't have to worry about whether they're stoned on "bath salts" and "crocodile" and meth and will mug me for my phone and credit cards. Kids with too much time on their hands (un- and under-employed, not in school, etc.) are too often a threat to themselves, their future, and society in general. Life is much better for me when the transportation system works efficiently and I don't have to worry about choking to death in a smoke-filled tunnel. Cars stuck in traffic damage the environment as well. Life is much better for me when I can make economic decisions about changing jobs based on something more than "will I have health insurance at all"? Etc. I'm willing to lose a tiny bit of relative status - via higher taxes - to pay for those things. That is an excellent trade in my eyes. And that has almost nothing to do with the reality that progress is incremental. It's the 1%ers who aren't willing to give up any status. You know this. Your fantasy of some Glorious Second American Revolution that will [missing step 2] and then we'll all live in Paradise Society [except for the Clintons and any previous member of the DLC] is a just a fantasy. It's far, far more likely that the 1%ers will still be on top after the GSAR than the other way around. I'm not going to be losing my private plane when the GSAR comes. The Founding Fathers were rich white guys.... Meet the new boss; same as the old boss.... You know all this. Cheers, Scott.
Post #425,009 by Andrew Grygus 8/3/18 11:38:03 AM 8/3/18 11:38:03 AM Reply	The American "Revolution" This was more in the nature of a hostile business takeover. John Hancock on why he signed the Declaration of Independence so large, "I want King George to see he has a bad debt on his hands without his spectacles". It was disorganized, incompetent, corrupt and much despised by the people. It was such a mess the next generation spent a whole lot of time and effort writing "The True Story". In "The Great Strategist" General Washington's own words, "I know nothing about strategy". That's OK, the strategy was planned in Paris by generals who knew what they were doing. Cornwallis was very well situated against Washington's rag tag army, but vulnerable from the sea. He surrendered because he learned the French war fleet was coming fast, leaving him too little time to get his troops back on the ships and get out of there. It was the least disastrous move he had available. England called it quits because they needed the money and armies for the other wars they were involved in at the time. This one seemed to be the least important - and they still had Canada. And, at the end of it all, the folks who had been on the top in the colonies, were still on the top - they just rid themselves of their bosses in England, that's all. If you doubt any of this (and a whole shitload more), check it out at the Smithsonian Institution. They have the evidence - and have freely published it in Smithsonian Magazine, to which I've had a subscription for 30 years or so.
Post #425,018 by mmoffitt 8/3/18 3:29:07 PM 8/3/18 3:29:07 PM Reply	I don't have any illusions about the American Revolution, but see one-liner above. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #425,032 by a6l6e6x 8/4/18 8:47:33 AM 8/4/18 8:47:33 AM Reply	So was dumping Ukraine’s Putin stooge Yanukovitch that you thought was undemocratic at the time Alex "There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." -- Isaac Asimov
Post #425,035 by boxley 8/4/18 7:20:39 PM 8/4/18 7:20:39 PM Reply	And which country colluded and fake news and funded that action? "Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
Post #425,036 by boxley 8/4/18 7:20:40 PM 8/4/18 7:42:31 PM Reply	ignore dupe "Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman Edited by boxley Aug. 4, 2018, 07:40:38 PM EDT Edited by boxley Aug. 4, 2018, 07:42:31 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #425,037 by Andrew Grygus 8/4/18 11:37:11 PM 8/4/18 11:37:11 PM Reply	Who's he dupe we're supposed to ignore? Is that you, Box?
Post #425,038 by boxley 8/4/18 11:44:49 PM 8/4/18 11:44:49 PM Reply	not me, reading page 613 family circle cookbook. Have a box of apples and am too cheap to buy pie crusts. Really $2 for a 9inch shell? I am really good with fillings, maybe the crusts will not be a disaster this time. "Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
Post #425,039 by drook 8/5/18 8:09:07 AM 8/5/18 8:09:07 AM Reply	Crusts are easy cooklikeyourgrandmother.com/how-to-make-pie-crust-from-scratch/ -- Drew
Post #425,040 by Another Scott 8/5/18 9:42:06 AM 8/5/18 9:42:06 AM Reply	Nice. My grandfather taught me the 2 knives trick (but he used table knives).
Post #425,041 by boxley 8/5/18 12:31:33 PM 8/5/18 12:31:33 PM Reply	Hey, I have that book! "Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman

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