"At least as long as Hillary doesn't do anything stupid" burying Bernie a little early aren't you?

Post #406,461 by boxley 11/24/15 12:36:59 AM Reply	"At least as long as Hillary doesn't do anything stupid" burying Bernie a little early aren't you? you can kill people for America at age 18 but need to be 21 to buy a beer
Post #406,463 by Another Scott 11/24/15 7:34:37 AM Reply	Bernie's not winning New Hampshire. Sure, it's early, but Hitllary is beating him in his backyard. RCP NH And she's crushing him in Iowa: RCP IA. Yeah, most of the country isn't paying attention, but folks in those places are starting to. (The biggest thing that worries me about her is her health and stamina, not that some big secret will come out or that she'll make some giant gaffe.) We'll see. Cheers, Scott.
Post #406,467 by mmoffitt 11/24/15 8:18:54 AM Reply	If you're right, then Trump gets an expected vote here.
Post #406,471 by boxley 11/24/15 9:11:47 AM Reply	on the other hand if the Canadian gets the nomination I will vote dem you can kill people for America at age 18 but need to be 21 to buy a beer
Post #406,473 by malraux 11/24/15 9:21:54 AM Reply	Your approach is idiotic. Sorry, had to be said. JFC, Mike, get a grip. If you can't hold your nose to vote for a Republican lite, how in the hell can you vote for a fascist jackass like Trump? I've got two kids. I'd really, really rather not see the country burn down around them because you think a bloody (not in the British sense) revolution would be peachy keen. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #406,475 by boxley 11/24/15 9:45:43 AM Reply	disagree, trump is no more facist that the banker lady he is a showman, saying what ever the hell he wants and grinning behind the scenes. The canadian on the other hand is a true fanatic who should scare the crap out of everyone. If elected a trump presidency will not look too different from a hillary clinton presidency with few minor differences. Any president will need some congressional action so it is important to glance at the hill and the senate and judge from there who would be most effective. you can kill people for America at age 18 but need to be 21 to buy a beer
Post #406,476 by crazy 11/24/15 9:49:48 AM Reply	Bs Before gb/cheney, I would have agreed with you on the congressional aspect, but no longer. A state of emergency is easily manipulated, and once that happens, all bets are off.
Post #406,481 by malraux 11/24/15 10:13:29 AM Reply	I don't think so He would not restrain the hard right wing of the Republicans at all, and the tone set by the President matters. He would also pick any new judges, and that's a serious matter. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #406,483 by boxley 11/24/15 10:26:06 AM Reply	agree on the judges being important, what about single payer health care? thats important too that is not exactly caving to the right wing you can kill people for America at age 18 but need to be 21 to buy a beer
Post #406,485 by malraux 11/24/15 10:54:06 AM Reply	At this point I'd settle for not getting in another damn war Single payer isn't going to happen until the Dems are back in charge of Congress, if even then. In other news, Trump says he would absolutely bring back waterboarding and "more than that", because even "if it doesn’t work, they deserve it anyway". He's a dangerous person. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #406,488 by mmoffitt 11/24/15 11:46:59 AM Reply	He's a clown playing to the crowd. I have two kids, too, Scott. I, like you, want the best for them. If we keep "holding our noses" and voting for evil, then it will take perhaps another generation or two for people to be finally fed up with the Great Worthless Thumb extracting everything of value from them and hoarding it all themselves. The trend is there. The polarization of wealth and the decline in the value of labor has been going apace since the late 1970's. Electing Clintons and Obamas is not going to do anything about that, other than, maybe - just maybe, slightly slow the rate. Is that good enough? I say it isn't. We're either serious about this and we nominate a Democratic Socialist or we nominate another Wall Street tool. It's like we're on this 10 mile road. At the end of that road, we don't know what happens. But he have to travel that road. We can choose "the lesser evil" and walk down that road at 1 mile per hour and take 10 hours to get there or we can get in a car by voting Trump and get there in 10 minutes. Whatever lies beyond that road it's difficult to imagine that it can be much worse, but there will be pain first undoubtedly. The pain will be the same, whether in 10 minutes or 10 hours. Why not get through it as quickly as possible?
Post #406,491 by rcareaga 11/24/15 12:48:39 PM Reply	I'm indifferent to mmoffitt's kids Speaking out of rational self-interest, it makes a great deal of difference to me whether we get to the end of the road in ten metaphorical hours or in ten metaphorical minutes, because I do not want to be present for the explosion and flames that likely await us after the asphalt gives out. Whatever lies beyond that road it's difficult to imagine that it can be much worse Dennett or Dawkins, I forget which, once referred to that sort of thing as "the argument from incredulity." Difficult to imagine? You should exercise your imagination a little more, mmoffitt, 'cause I can come up with some plausibly nastier post-Trump scenarios without working up a sweat. cordially,
Post #406,492 by mmoffitt 11/24/15 1:19:15 PM Reply	Nice edit. I'm not claiming it will automagically be better immediately, as the part you cut I think clearly demonstrates. What could go wrong in the most armed populace in the world with the greatest polarization of wealth when the great unwashed have finally had enough? What emerges after that is not clear, but I've never be susceptible to a fear of change and imo this country needs fundamental change.
Post #406,494 by Andrew Grygus 11/24/15 1:55:03 PM Reply	After the euphoria of victory . . . . . comes a massive power struggle, and execution of the idealistic revolutionaries. The new regime consolidates its power with an iron fist and proves to be pretty much the same as the old regime, except more repressive. Read some history.
Post #406,496 by malraux 11/24/15 1:57:03 PM Reply	Yep. People like Mike are doomed to repeat it because they're blinded by their ideals. I don't want to accompany him in that handcart, though. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #406,500 by rcareaga 11/24/15 2:40:08 PM Reply	handcart? More like a tumbril, I'm thinking. Welcome to the Place de la Révolution, M. Anderson. cordially,
Post #406,506 by malraux 11/24/15 3:19:59 PM Reply	Touché. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #406,563 by pwhysall 11/26/15 6:52:58 AM 11/26/15 6:53:52 AM Reply	Vote Trump 2016! Here in Yoo Rop, us Yoor Peons could do with a laugh. A really, really big laugh at the massive expense of millions of people. ETA: That's Actual American Actual People, not mere notional furrin people. Edited by pwhysall Nov. 26, 2015, 06:53:46 AM EST Edited by pwhysall Nov. 26, 2015, 06:53:52 AM EST Expand All History
Post #406,567 by malraux 11/26/15 12:13:57 PM Reply	Pretty sure the consequences wouldn't neatly stay within our borders... Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #406,601 by pwhysall 11/29/15 1:49:07 AM Reply	Eh, we're doomed anyway. Might as well die laughing.
Post #406,495 by malraux 11/24/15 1:56:01 PM Reply	We fundamentally disagree that both roads lead to the same destination. He's a clown, but he's a deadly serious clown. The pain won't be the same. I don't agree that a gradual evolution is impossible. And if there's a choice between "definite bloodshed in 10 minutes" and "possible bloodshed in 10 hours", I'll take the latter every time. Anything else would be foolhardy. You, nor anyone else, can predict what will happen. Don't take the most damaging route under the assumption that it will All Work Out. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #406,502 by mmoffitt 11/24/15 2:49:47 PM Reply	It's a slow death for many. Median Household income in constant dollars. 2000: 57,724 2014: 53,657 Change: -4,067 / -7.5% And how much did that "home" cost over the period: Median Home Prices Jan 2000: 163,500 Jan 2014: 269,800 Change: 106,300 / +65% How about the cost of sending the kids to college? Constant Dollars, per year expenditures at 4 year public institutions. 2001-2002 11,940 2012-2013 17,474 Change: 5,534 / +46% (so, with 7.5% less income, you need to come up with an additional 22K per child for a 4 year degree) The current socio-economic system is failing for median households in this country. I refuse to believe that the best we can do is continue this long, slow death march and I do not believe there is any hope that things will ever improve if we continue electing the same kind of "lesser evils" that got us into this mess in the first place. What's that expression about doing the same things over and over and expecting/hoping for a different outcome? On the bright side, if we elect Clinton, maybe median household incomes will only drop another 4% instead of 7.5% and they can be happy with that, right? (Got numbers here: https://www.census.gov/construction/nrs/pdf/uspricemon.pdf and here: https://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/MEHOINUSA672N and https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=76 )
Post #406,505 by Another Scott 11/24/15 3:03:19 PM Reply	Indeed. Here's where you're going off the rails, though. I do not believe there is any hope that things will ever improve if we continue electing the same kind of "lesser evils" that got us into this mess in the first place. W was not the lesser evil. He was the greater evil that caused much of the mess we're in. Similarly with Reagan. Letting the greater evil win makes things worse. HTH. Cheers, Scott.
Post #406,507 by malraux 11/24/15 3:25:17 PM Reply	And: If El Trump is elected, what do you think will happen to these numbers? Hint: there's a very good chance that a) there will be no Grand Revolution and b) the numbers will get even worse. If there is a Grand Revolution, there's a good chance the numbers will get abysmal. If the Grand Revolution starts and fails, there could be no bottom. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.

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