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New Kerry Reid would like a word.
Kerry Reid:

309. Kerry Reid says:
June 19, 2015 at 3:46 pm

So let me see if I have this right: posting the Ten Commandments and demanding prayer in public schools is essential because that will somehow make people act like decent folks through osmosis. But exposure to the officially sanctioned flag of racism, hate and treason couldn’t possibly foster white resentment and rage? Izzat about right?


It's a conundrum!

Cheers,
Scott.
New As I hope you know, I do not support religious symbols on government property.
It can't be your argument that "the flag made him do it," can it? Anymore than TV, a movie or a song can be blamed. I don't think we should give these evil bastards that out. THEY did it. THEY, alone. And they alone should be held accountable.
New People are taught how to hate.
When a baby turns 27 months old, a switch doesn't suddenly click and then they become racist. Racism is taught. Sometimes overtly, sometimes subtle-y, but it's taught. That teaching is part of the culture.

The "stars and bars" is part of that culture as well:

Georgia's Republican Gov. Sonny Perdue, who swept to office on a wave of white outrage over disrespect of the Confederate flag, today signed a bill that would finally repeal discriminatory laws left over from the fight against civil rights in the 1950s and 1960s. The laws had been designed to circumvent the Supreme Court's 1954 ruling against school segregation in Brown v. Board of Education; taken together, they essentially allowed white-only public schools to be reconstituted as "private" schools using state money, resources, and buildings. The old laws hadn't been enforced for years.

The Confederate state flag Perdue was defending had the same purpose and vintage as the anti-desegregation laws he has belatedly repealed. The flag, far from being an artifact of the state's Civil War heritage, was introduced in 1956 (in a bill cosponsored by a man named Jefferson Lee Davis) as an act of defiance against the civil rights movement. It replaced the state's original flag, a version of the first Confederate national flag (the "Stars and Bars"), with a banner incorporating the much more familiar (and inflammatory) "Southern Cross" of the Confederate battle flag (a blue St. Andrew's cross with white stars against a red background).

[...]


Symbolism matters.

Yes, racism exists everywhere, that's why it should be called out and confronted everywhere. That includes calling out its symbols - even in Indiana - also too.

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.
New yup taught indeed
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 59 years. meep
New What would you say to Edgerton and the Hervey brothers?
From your linked article...
In 2003 H.K. Edgerton, a Black man, attracted national attention when he carried the Confederate battle flag and led 20 white men in a march in North Carolina, where he spoke of contributions made by Black soldiers who fought for the Confederacy.

“Tell the kids this flag is history and heritage. It is not hate,” said Edgerton, the former president of the Asheville NAACP branch. “It is not a white thing. That red represents my blood just as much as it represents theirs.”

In 2006 political activist Anthony Hervey and his brother Harry, who are also black, wore Confederate uniforms and displayed the flag in Mississippi in front of the Jackson City Council.

“The battle flag stands for freedom and states rights,” said Anthony Hervey, who claims his great-great uncle fought for the Confederacy. Hervey is also president of the Black Confederate Soldiers Association, and wrote the book Why I Wave the Confederate Flag.

“The U.S. flag is actually the flag of slavery,” he asserts. “It flew over 100 years of slavery, and Native Americans were annihilated under that flag.”
New No real distribution is an ideal gaussian. There are always outliers.
http://www.thecarpetbagger.org/2012/09/hk-edgerton-black-confederate.html

The truly disturbing part is when you venture over to Edgerton.'s website. Edgerton disputes that Slavery was the primary cause of the Civil War. Even more troubling, Edgerton defends slavery, painting the relationship between slaves and their owners as harmonious and loving. He also claims that African Americans fought for the confederacy, which is a questionable claim. From what I have read, they were not allowed to be soldiers, but did have roles where they assisted on the battlefield.

One would wonder what would make a man seemingly betray his own heritage. Well, take a look at THIS. It turns out that at the events that H.K. attends he is not simply showing up at over a sense of confederate unity. H.K. charges an appearance fee. H.K. charges a 20,000 dollar appearance fee, plus mileage.

So, is Edgerton for real? People who knew him as a NAACP president have expressed shock over his recent shift in views. Does Edgerton really believe what he preaches, or is he cynically selling himself to Confederate apologists as a way to erase their guilt? Maybe he laughs his way to the bank.


http://anthonyhervey-confederatecrook.com/

For the 3 black people you can find that feel the way they do, there are 30M who feel differently.

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.
New The victors always write the history books.
Some time ago, I picked up this free book at the big river company and I read it from time to time. "Slave Narratives - A Folk History of Slavery in the United States from Interviews with Former Slaves" It was written by the Federal Writers' Project and assembled by the Library of Congress. (I think this is the same book, but mine doesn't have the fancy cover: http://www.amazon.com/North-Carolina-Slave-Narratives-1936-1938/dp/1557090203/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1434900417&sr=8-1&keywords=slave+narratives+from+the+federal+writers%27+project+1936-1938 )

I'm not advocating for the slave apologists. I would point out, though, after reading some of these accounts and taking them at face value, it would seem to me that the institution of slavery in the South contained far greater complexity than one might suspect. The stories in that book are fascinating. Jane Lassiter's for instance. Here's an excerpt:
We had plenty sumptin to eat an' it was cooked good. My mother wus de cook an' she done it right. ... Dere wus 'bout fifty slaves on de plantation, an' dey wurked from light till dark. I 'member dey wurkin' till dark. Course I wus too small to 'member all 'bout it an' I don't 'member 'bout de overseers. I never seen a slave wupped, but I 'member seein' dem carryin' slaves in droves like cows. De white men who wus guardin' 'em walked in front an' some behind. I did not see any chains. I never seen a slave sold an' I don't 'member ever seein' a jail fer slaves.


Or former slave Abner Jordan's account of an encounter with Union forces:
When de war come de Yankees come to de house an' axed my mammy whare de folks done hid de silver an' gol', an' dey say dey gwine to kill mammy if she didn' tell dem. But mammy say she didn' know whare dey put it, an' dey would jus' have to kill her for she didn' know an' wouldn' lie to keep dem from hurting her. De sojers stole seven or eight of de ho'ses an' foun' de meat and stole dat, but dey didn't burn none of de buildin's nor hurt any of us slaves. My pappy an' his family stayed wid Marse Paul five years after de surrender den we moved to Hillsboro an I's always lived 'roun' dese parts.


I've only read maybe 10% of these stories. So far for me the most striking thing is how many slaves continued to live with their masters after the war. There are certainly instances of slaves telling stories about beatings, but the unusual thing for me is how many former slaves spoke fondly of their former masters.

You don't read those stories in your history books. What all of us were taught is that all Southerners were racists who owned slaves, beat and raped them repeatedly and in general treated them in approximately the same way the Nazis ran their concentration camps.

FWIW, from the stories I've read, I'd be willing to wager there are more than "three Black men" who feel the way HK does.
New Another good book, mentioned here before.
Slave No More.

Slave narratives, some of the most powerful records of our past, are extremely rare, with only fifty-five post–Civil War narratives surviving. A mere handful are first-person accounts by slaves who ran away and freed themselves.


First-person narratives carry more weight.

None of us were there. I know where the preponderance of the evidence lies for me, though.

YMMV.

Cheers,
Scott.
New lets not leave out the californians
their treatment of the chinese in the same time period of southern slavery met or exceeded their southern bretheren.
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 59 years. meep
New Read "Uncle Tom's Cabin"!
I may be a novel but it caused the Civil War.
Alex

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

-- Isaac Asimov
New All definitively covered in 'South Pacific'
You've got to be carefully taught to hate.

..and that was about (early dis-) U.S. callow military yout and Pacific islanders/not something radical like.. 'the negro-down the street. Hearing South Pacific as a pre-teen, I thought the song was all ye needed to know on the topic.

You'd think this an ideal antidote--in any era--to parent-inculcated xenophobia, right?
But, in Murica: you'd be wrong.


(WikiP has story from '44 to ''47 when stage play became The Beatles du jour. PInza movie was '58.)
New Yup. That song was in the back of my head writing my comment.
driftglass, also too:

And after a steady diet of lies and abject denial about those lies, undoubtedly millions of Conservative meatheads have come to believe that all of it is true, in the same way that millions of North Koreans believe that North Korea won World War II and is now the dominate superpower on planet Earth. The difference, of course, is that while the average North Korean is imprisoned in on all sides by walls and mines and machine guns and are pounded with propaganda from cradle to grave, the average Conservative could easily find out just how completely they have been brainwashed and how monstrously they have been lied to with a few clicks of a mouse or by changing the channel.

But a Conservative will eat a ball of barbed wire, and then spend a month shitting blood and blaming Obama for it, and then do the same thing all over again, because they don't want to know the truth.

They dare not know the truth.

And every one of us knows it.

And with the help of their enablers and co-conspirators in the mainstream media, this strategy of complete, uniform denial of factual reality has been enormously profitable and has worked remarkably well for decades. And, quite predictably, as this groups of criminals and lunatics figured out that since there are no longer any cops on this beat -- that the fourth estate long ago abandoned its post and gave up on the idea of reporting the "facts" for fear of offending the crazies -- there is no one left to stop them no matter depraved, dangerous and overtly nuts their antics have gotten.

And I don't know about you, but I'm god damned tired of watching the simple facts of 8th grade American history become something so "controversial" that no blow-dried millionaire newsreader in the mainstream media dares to speak its name:

[...]

-- the problem of race in America has always been about white male supremacy.

And white supremacy in America has always been about Jefferson Davis' Almighty God locked in mortal combat with Reverend Martin Luther King's Almighty God.

And it continues to astonish me the number of times we on the Left are called upon to drum this basic fact of American history into the skulls of America's Greatest Conservative Public Intellectuals.


Cheers,
Scott.
New Alas.. 'information technology' guarantees that exp-increasing Noise is easier and cheaper
than ever. It seems that the symbols describing our predicament are also quite compact:

[S/N] Signal-to-noise ratio; ask any EE about that whole marvelous phenom.

[n!] n-Factorial; elementary math/logic ... harbinger of doom in many situations.

[Exponential equations] We've been through Edw. Teller's memorable quote re the emotional non-comprehension of such things, by most.

Do we need any more than these three concepts? to measure the direction of the Power- thus Money- obsessed, as they see the success of their daily purchase of More Noise on all channels.


Rest case. A crap-shoot for all mammals on an endangered planet, currently under control of those dedicated to infinite accretion of means towards insane dreams:
a mere few HUNDRED homo-saps -vs- the billions. 7ish? x 109 -vs- a couple-hundred-ish of deranged Moguls. Unimaginable, if posited a couple decades ago, I wot.

As we ... mostly ... watch the Corporatocracies consolidate, strengthen their inter-operations via antediluvian ideas of Worth and of Finance worldwide.
As fiction: a too-ludicrous plot to be believed. As fact +/- ... leitmotif of a vastly-wimpy species, clearly terminally gullible:
(Note that 15 yrs. into this ugly 21st century: there's hardly any {even sub-space..} chatter about the ongoing cost of the USSC-selected Shogunate fiasco, its consequences nowhere nearly neutralized, as the damage serially spawns new vectors, all made possible by the entire M.E. Murican Clusterfuck).

That fav word of him-who-must notbenamed: strife ... encapsulates the foreseeable futchah. Initiated by 9 old farts, obsessed with fucking-over word-Referents in total-isolation! as the brokenness expands.

Surreal. As we ... mostly ... still watch,
not believing that a few paramecia really CAN wag, from the tail: the entire ailing Brontosaurus. Place your bets; we're rilly-Short of beneficent dictators so.. you know..

Ed: oTpy
Expand Edited by Ashton June 21, 2015, 03:19:32 AM EDT
     hey, mmoffitt - (rcareaga) - (38)
         why the kid was following california chuck's play wasnt he? not confederate at all - (boxley) - (11)
             sorry forgot an ob "can you dig it" -NT - (boxley)
             THAT was one of your poorest trolls EVER -NT - (hnick) - (9)
                 not a troll. A manson wannabee by his own words -NT - (boxley) - (8)
                     O...M...G - (hnick) - (7)
                         Re: O...M...G - (boxley) - (6)
                             Re: O...M...G - (Another Scott) - (4)
                                 edit adding another link - (boxley) - (3)
                                     Oooh. Quantum entaglement. I'm convinced. ;-) Thanks. -NT - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                         thought you would like them :-) -NT - (boxley)
                                     Mr. Illuminati Guy seems sharp enough.. - (Ashton)
                             Not precisely the same - (hnick)
         Nothing at all. - (malraux)
         Soldiers aren't Politicians. - (mmoffitt) - (24)
             FWIW - (drook) - (7)
                 There's that oversimplification again. - (mmoffitt) - (6)
                     Indiana is still "the South" as far as I'm concerned. - (malraux) - (5)
                         when did indiana seceed from the union? "Michissippi indeed - (boxley) - (3)
                             Talking about my experience. - (malraux) - (2)
                                 so hick and backwards michigan is south? sounds like yankee privilege :-) -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                     NFC what you mean. - (malraux)
                         Well, maybe you're "polite company." ;0) -NT - (mmoffitt)
             Kerry Reid would like a word. - (Another Scott) - (12)
                 As I hope you know, I do not support religious symbols on government property. - (mmoffitt) - (11)
                     People are taught how to hate. - (Another Scott) - (10)
                         yup taught indeed -NT - (boxley)
                         What would you say to Edgerton and the Hervey brothers? - (mmoffitt) - (5)
                             No real distribution is an ideal gaussian. There are always outliers. - (Another Scott) - (3)
                                 The victors always write the history books. - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                     Another good book, mentioned here before. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                         lets not leave out the californians - (boxley)
                             Read "Uncle Tom's Cabin"! - (a6l6e6x)
                         All definitively covered in 'South Pacific' - (Ashton) - (2)
                             Yup. That song was in the back of my head writing my comment. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                 Alas.. 'information technology' guarantees that exp-increasing Noise is easier and cheaper - (Ashton)
             Counterpoint. - (Another Scott) - (2)
                 stand watie was neither white or conscripted - (boxley) - (1)
                     Neither was Ely Parker. - (Another Scott)

Just because your vocabulary is extremely limited doesn't mean the rest of the world can't use that word.
72 ms