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New Slightly OT re "going on since before I was born".
You and I are never going to agree on this. I'm far more aligned with Rand. It's probably because I've been in a society like this before. As a nine and ten year old kid, I remember the first thing done when we checked into a hotel was find all the microphones. I remember never using people's names only "moi droog" and if there was confusion about who one of us was talking about, into the bathroom, turn on all spigots, both heads in the sink and whisper the name once. And always just once. I'm certain that if you'd asked them, the KGB would offer up the identical rationalizations for "the need to watch and listen" as you've offered up for the NSA.

But there is one thing that just came to mind and I wonder what your reaction would have been to this event. We came back to the United States in late 1969 (a day or two before Christmas). My brother was 7 and I was 10. We'd been in the Soviet Union since early June and had attended regular Soviet primary schools. Flying in, it was snowing really hard at Washington National, so we were diverted to Boston. We were not allowed to deplane (there were only two other people on the plane besides my family of four that I remember seeing) and we were forbidden to speak to anyone. We were taken by bus to Washington. We went into a building and my father was taken down a long hall and into a room, the door shut behind him. My mother, brother and I were each taken to separate rooms. Two men in dark suits were in my room. They started asking me questions about my travels, whom I had spoken to, what my classes in school were like, what was said about US policy, what kinds of tanks and rockets I'd seen and how many, and so forth. Perhaps because of my conditioning in Soviet Russia, I did not trust these men. I answered every question with, "I don't know" or "I can't remember" or just plain "No." One of men was getting pretty angry with me and he asked, "Did you ever go to park with Pavel?" I said, "I don't know any Pavel." He asked, "You've never heard of Pavel? The KGB agent assigned you and your brother?" I said, "No." He then went over to a file cabinent, jerked open a drawer, reached in and grabbed a folder, brought it to the table where I was seated, slammed it down, opened it up and then showed me about a dozen photographs of my brother, Pavel and me at a park playing on swings (actually Pavel was pushing us on the swings). The man said, "Why are you lying to us, young man?" I did not say another word. They asked several more questions then the angry man said, "We're not going to get anything from this kid. Let him go." When they opened the door, I saw my mom sitting in the lobby and I took a seat next to her. She asked me if I'd answered all of their questions and I said, "All that I could." I remember being surprised that my interrogation lasted longer than my mom's but then, my brother and I spoke some Russian and mother never learned any. They probably knew that. At any rate, I asked my mom, "Where's Matt (my brother)?" She said, "They're still talking to him in that room" and pointed to one of the closed doors. [Keep in mind he was 7 years old]. About 45 minutes later my father came walking down the hall back to us. My brother by that time had been interrogated for over 90 minutes. When my father didn't see my brother he asked, "Where's Matt?" My mother then replied as she had replied to me. My father became angry immediately and said, "They're still talking to Matt?" Then he marched over to the door and flung it open and said, "Come on, Matt." As he walked out my father glared at the two men and said, "You sons of bitches proud of yourselves?" I peered inside and the table where Matt had been had hundreds of photographs on it. I could see that they were mostly pictures of military equipment and personnel. Some had been circled with bright red ink. It is funny how vididly I remember all this. I asked my brother what they'd been talking about for so long and he said they wanted to know what kind of tanks, missles, subs and soldiers we'd seen and where. They also showed him pictures of different people and asked if he knew them and what they talked about.

All of that was done, doubtless, to help protect the Great America People from the Red Menace. Is grilling a 7 year old for an hour and half okay, too?
New I have met a few of thiose in my time
The best example of how the government folks are really like is to watch "Harold and Kumar Escape from Guantnomo" The satire is a bit harsh on the homeland security officials, but is quite in character.
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
New No.
Of course that was not Ok.

Your father was in the foreign service or similar, no? Employees are under different standards than civilians.

Even with that, of course the agents were out of line.

Cheers,
Scott.
New State Department.
As far as I know, my father was the first American ever allowed to attend Moscow State University. I know he was offered a position with the CIA around that time because I remember eavesdropping on a conversation my mother and he had about then. She was adamantly against it and he didn't take it.

Why we were there in 1969 was that my father worked as a guide on an exhibit sponsored by the State Department. It's the "Education USA" exhibit listed for 1969-1970 here: http://www.state.gov.../ci/rs/c26473.htm

We didn't stay for the second half because of my mother. My dad had actually arranged for me to continue on with another guide, but my mother would not tolerate that. My brother and I both wanted to stay. We actually cried when we were told we had to go back to America.
New I'd love to compare the books
That post about the test in the SC grade school has me thinking about textbooks again. Years ago someone pointed out how math books will have titles like "Math" or "Beginning Algebra", chemistry books will have titles like "Introduction to Chemistry" or "Chemical Concepts", but history books have titles like "The American Century" or "Manifest Destiny".

I'd love to see the titles of the books they were using in Moscow in the late 60s.
--

Drew
New When I get back down there, assuming no theft...
My old school books were up at my late father's place. I'll try to find them the next time I head down there.
New as someone
Who will probably monitored the rest of my life (hi guys!) It certainly does have an effect. Of course, since you are a single connection away from me, I wonder how you now feel about it. You are now in the crosshairs due to association. Sorry about that.
New Anticipated.. in spirit of camaraderie, I nominate an anthem
https://www.youtube....tch?v=frAEmhqdLFs

Believe that the GRR would approve (if it's back from vacation.)
For.. Assuredly.. we Will all go together when we go.

(They may have Peta-petabytes of stored dirt--but not a full 300M places at Guantanamo. Yet.)
Hang in there--the 'Law-of-Accidental Events' seems hungrier these days. A hungry Law?? Yup.
New Finding the microphones
I remember the first thing done when we checked into a hotel was find all the microphones.
I can't vouch for the following story, which carries with it a whiff of apocrypha, but I recall reading in the 1970s a brief account of an American visitor to the USSR who performed the same drill. He even went so far as to pull up the rug, and yes! There was a little round metal plate set into a recess in the floor. He took the wing nut 'twixt thumb and forefinger, unscrewed it...and there came a crash and commotion from the room beneath his as its overhead light fixture crashed onto the floor.

As to KGB tails, one US journalist newly arrived as the Moscow bureau chief got wind of his minder early on—there appears to have been no effort made to conduct the surveillance discreetly. His "Pavel" followed close behind everywhere the reporter went. At one point the American stopped to purchase a frozen treat from a sidewalk vendor. He purchased two, and held one out behind him. This was taken wordlessly by his tail, and the two men continued on their rounds.

cordially,

PS: I've come to conclude that were we to place a mature frog and the imperturbable Another_Scott in side-by-side cauldrons over a bank of gas jets, the amphibian would be the first to jump.
New oh yeah, Fallows and frogs
I know that the old boiling frog trope is spurious, and that a frog will seek to remove itself from a fluid medium rendered uncomfortably warm. I'm just saying that the frog would notice first.

cordially,
New I know, I know. It just made me laugh, that's all. :-)
New Bonus! .. a link there to PK's prescient opus of 7-13-09
http://www.nytimes.c...krugman.html?_r=0

(Could write that one today--and it would be 'as prescient')--given what has['nt] transpired since. :-/
And So it Goes Stalls, dead-in-the-water, besides an occasional lip-service.
New He was too optimistic there, for once. :-(
New We always found some.
The funniest of these was found in a hotel we stayed in during a 2 week vacation. It was in Yalta. There was a chandelier in the room with a little bowl shapped object at the bottom. At the very bottom of that bowl was a little ball. My brother and I noticed something funny about the ball and pulled on it. The glue was apparently not quite set yet and two little wires led into the ball. My brother and I (sans any knowledge or consent) decided to try to play a joke on whomever was listening. We went outside and got two bricks, headed back to the hotel room and then whispered into the ball the Russian equivalent of "Hey, James Bond!" and then smashed the microphone. We then went out to dinner with our parents and when we returned, sure enough, a new "chandelier ball" was glued in place.

My brother and I always hoped that whomever was listening turned up the volume and leaned forward in his seat before hearing the bricks clack together.

Most of the time, IME, the mic's were easy to spot. They were usually big - about the size of a Kennedy half dollar. And, too, like your friend, the agents assigned to us (with one hilarious exception) were friendly and reasonably open about what they were doing. In fact, that vacation trip to Yalta? Our agent from Leningrad was curiously at the same beach we visited for the entire two weeks, often spreading his towel right next to ours.
New Fun with (for) eavesdroppers
A friend spent most of 1977 touring the USSR with a USIA photo exhibit. In one drab provincial town with no night life to speak of, she and two bored colleagues made their own entertainment, consisting, in her words, of "a lot of good-natured licking and sucking." She added, "I don't know if they bothered bugging our rooms, but if so, they got an earful that night."

cordially,
New While my Russki is beyond-rusty, didn't they have an Org
for tabulating such incidents? Gazporn IIRC..
     New NSA fun! - (rcareaga) - (28)
         Re: New NSA fun! - (Another Scott) - (23)
             It is their mission - (rcareaga) - (22)
                 Yes. - (Another Scott) - (21)
                     More revealing of our predicament, I think - (Ashton) - (3)
                         We're just going round and round. - (Another Scott) - (2)
                             Yes 'NSA" could be a straw-man or, a 'straw dog' horror-show - (Ashton) - (1)
                                 It's right to be concerned; always gotta watch the watchers. - (Another Scott)
                     Slightly OT re "going on since before I was born". - (mmoffitt) - (16)
                         I have met a few of thiose in my time - (boxley)
                         No. - (Another Scott) - (5)
                             State Department. - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                 I'd love to compare the books - (drook) - (1)
                                     When I get back down there, assuming no theft... - (mmoffitt)
                             as someone - (crazy) - (1)
                                 Anticipated.. in spirit of camaraderie, I nominate an anthem - (Ashton)
                         Finding the microphones - (rcareaga) - (8)
                             :-) - (Another Scott) - (4)
                                 oh yeah, Fallows and frogs - (rcareaga) - (1)
                                     I know, I know. It just made me laugh, that's all. :-) -NT - (Another Scott)
                                 Bonus! .. a link there to PK's prescient opus of 7-13-09 - (Ashton) - (1)
                                     He was too optimistic there, for once. :-( -NT - (Another Scott)
                             We always found some. - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                 Fun with (for) eavesdroppers - (rcareaga) - (1)
                                     While my Russki is beyond-rusty, didn't they have an Org - (Ashton)
         they are hoovering a small amount of messgae traffic - (boxley)
         Obummer's speech today. - (Another Scott) - (2)
             Good speech - (hnick)
             This may be one of the clearer outlines of the nested - (Ashton)

Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.
130 ms