IWETHEY v. 0.3.0 | TODO
1,095 registered users | 0 active users | 0 LpH | Statistics
Login | Create New User
IWETHEY Banner

Welcome to IWETHEY!

New New NSA fun!
We learn from The Guardian today (from intelligence that ought never have been leaked by the arch-criminal Snowden) that the NSA has been, well, looking rather promiscuously at communications, and gathering all sorts of data into the vacuum bag:
The National Security Agency has collected almost 200 million text messages a day from across the globe, using them to extract data including location, contact networks and credit card details, according to top-secret documents.
More info that they'd never, ever be tempted to misuse, Another_Scott, amirite? 'Cause there are laws and procedures in place. Certainly worked with Hoover at the FBI all those years, so I frankly can't imagine why anyone would presume to second-guess General Alexander or his successors.

Honestly, when I talk to people who claim there's nothing to see here, it's like, I don't know, some kind of Titanic metaphor. Who can possibly watch this happening and remain phlegmatically comfortable about the prospects for anything resembling Constitutional democracy? The Deep State security apparatus is a far greater hazard to our society than anything the zombie bin Laden could possibly devise.

http://www.theguardi...eted-global-sweep

cordially,
New Re: New NSA fun!
Communications from US phone numbers, the documents suggest, were removed (or “minimized”) from the database


The NSA's mission is to hoover up every type of electronic signal outside the USA.

http://www.nsa.gov/sigint/

What IS SIGINT?

SIGINT is intelligence derived from electronic signals and systems used by foreign targets, such as communications systems, radars, and weapons systems. SIGINT provides a vital window for our nation into foreign adversaries' capabilities, actions, and intentions.

NSA's SIGINT mission is specifically limited to gathering information about international terrorists and foreign powers, organizations, or persons. NSA produces intelligence in response to formal requirements levied by those who have an official need for intelligence, including all departments of the Executive Branch of the United States Government. For information on how NSA protects Americans' right to privacy, see the FAQs section.


Is 200M text messages a day a lot? No, it isn't. Not in the context of worldwide SMS traffic. For example:

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Text_messaging

In the Republic of Ireland, a total of 1.5 billion messages are sent every quarter [16.7M/day], on average 114 messages per person per month.[42] In the United Kingdom over 1 billion text messages are sent every week.[43][143M/day]

[...]

Text messaging is popular and cheap in China. About 700 billion messages were sent in 2007 [1.9B/day].


There's a huge worldwide volume of text messages. Probably multiple billions per day. Maybe tens of billions a day by now. The NSA hoovering up "almost" 200M/day is a tiny fraction.

Nobody outside the US who is not a "US person" should be surprised that the NSA might be looking at their stuff that flows across the airwaves and the Internet. That's what they do. It is their mission..

HTH.

<sigh>

Cheers,
Scott.
New It is their mission
It is indeed.

Ought it be? Ought we live under such conditions, and we consent to this, have we any right to claim for ourselves the ideals promulgated by the Founding Fathers? My own take is that we do not, and should acknowledge that we now consent to living under a tyranny far beyond the wildest fantasies of George III. Do you disagree?

New Yes.
This stuff has been going on since before I was born, and I suspect before you were born.

We know what real tyranny is. The NSA collecting a few text messages isn't it.

This is, IMO, yet another example of Snowden grabbing a bunch of stuff with lots of numbers, but without understanding it. And apparently the people who were given the stuff don't understand it either.

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.
New More revealing of our predicament, I think
is the (to them, 'no-brainer') affection for 'receiving-back' US-related 'messages' scarfed-up by Euro sites--material they are 'forbidden' to peruse by existing "Laws".
Is this collection, clearly a circumlocution for the ignoring of US Law: NOTHING? in your mentation.

It matters not the exact numeric details of these additions to the exponentially-rising Pbytes/day:
(200M-anythings can be as easily, next 200B then Ts)
to me it Matters that--if they are disdainful of US Law/already to this extent?
As Bertie would (did) say, then why not scofflaws re Any 'Law'? (as many of us suspected long before there was a cubic-mile of evidence.)

'Real Tyranny'--compared-with-What? 3,5,10 years ago? WW-II?
Daily expansion is ex and easily enhances to whatever the budget buys in storage (and the costs of adding further 'granularity' to Every aspect.) ie

E x t r a p o l a t i o n ... I'm betting you learned that long before you grokked e x p o n e n t i a t i o n.
You continue to embrace the supposition that 'Government workers' OR 'Free-enterprise Subs(?)' shall perpetually abjure
The Thrill of the Hunt MID-STREAM! because.. The Law instructs them to do so.
This despite evidence that they Haven't behaved in this way--re the first point: circumlocution.

IME: Nothing! deters a hound possessed of a scent of prey (Real or 'imagined-enough'.)
And hunting is precisely what these people Do, whole tribes of such.

Maybe that is where I forsake such faith as yours in "all members doing the Lawful Thing"--remember Chile and all our other Overthrows?
Done for just plain Goodness and the American Way? Many aspects of those affairs were against International as well as American 'Laws'. Then.. as now.
Muricans haven't changed.

We've built this monstrous machine and it looks increasingly like a transmogrified copy of the Doomsday Device
--only that hilarious version was fiction. This model Isn't.

YMCV.

New We're just going round and round.
Congress and the president need to know what is going on in the world to know what treaties are sensible to enter into; to know who to support in civil conflicts; to know what foreign groups are potential threats; to know what scientific breakthroughs may impact our military and our economy and our health and safety. All of those things can have substantial impact on our national security - especially in the future.

The National Security Agency's task is to collect that information from signals, distill it, make sense of it, and report to Congress and the president when asked.

There are rules and laws about how that is done. There are procedures and checks to make sure that people don't break the rules. Are the procedures perfect? Obviously not - no system is perfect.

If we say the NSA cannot look at text messages, or call records, or anything on the Internet, then we obviously make those media free to those who do not want the US to know that information.

The laws and the courts say that the NSA is operating within the rules, and that when they have stepped over the line, they have been forced to get back over it.

The NSA has no interest in spying on Americans. It's not their job; they don't have a big enough budget or enough people to do it; and it would make their actual job more difficult.

Those who worry about "tyranny" in the US need to direct their ire away from the NSA and toward their local police who beat people to death or shoot them for no reason, the banking system with its usurious rates and over-the-top fees, and those in their state and local government who want to make contraception illegal, take away our right to vote, remove women's right to be treated as equals, legitimize religious and racial discrimination, and remove all of the social insurance that keeps us out of poverty when things go badly.

Direct your ire in the right place.

Don't be distracted by the "squirrel!!" of Snowden's document dump. Not while tens of millions are still out of work, tens of millions can't afford to sell their homes, tens of millions of young people are unemployed or under-employed while they have huge debt burdens, and tens of millions are without sufficient resources to be able to have a sensible retirement, and so forth.

I don't know what else to say....

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Yes 'NSA" could be a straw-man or, a 'straw dog' horror-show
Yours may scale with more 'Relativity' than my points. Am not oblivious to this POV. Just un-conviced, thus far.
I sincerely hope that your perspective is the saner one; in 'normal' times it would win the Sky-is-Falling rebuttal with ease.
It remains quite unclear--just Now--if we shall regain 'normality' soon, or at all, in the foreseeable: to test either focus.
(There are no Players (which I can 'see' on the stage)--seemingly capable of genuine guidance? next: either.)

Compared with ... the seeming-insoluble problems of human cupidity, those enhanced via the effete Regulatory Quality of existing laws re banking
(thus re: CCs, Derivatives, multi-national Corporate gamesmanship; summarized as 'the hegemony of the minuscule minority'--currently governing the millions.)
Compared with That enigma? then:

The mere regulation/emasculation? of the Spooks--is much simpler to contemplate, even to conjure some finer-dimensions of the chains.
While not a trivial design-prolem: it is, at least, realizable via mere logic, supported by some decent Reasoning.

Is 'NSA' today, thus ~the Tar-baby, deflecting needed Attention-away-from the more intractable, yet root-causes of our largest Discontents?
(Thou sorta-Sayest)

Maybe So: I give you that possibility; few of us can handle more that a handful of cognitive-dissonances
--especially amidst a premeditated Velvet-curtain of intentional-Noise, generated by the most execrable players we have yet spawned.
(It is also inescapable that, we each/all have been influenced by the most imaginative portrayals of Dystopian futures.. which literature can conjure.)

Fortunately though: neither of us has inherited the mind-stultifying Certainty! gene ;^>
..One fervently hopes.
Shall we call these exercises, then: an amicable Draw? for the nonce.
(I shan't conclude that you are any-more prone to.. missing some seminal Next datum? than am I.)

What we Know-fershure, is IMO: 'refactoring the code' of .. umm Ethics, Fairness, Community-preserving? (within the already-Gang-Raped 'concepts of Our Origins' ??)
Shall be massively harder to move-towards, than: demoting a few generals in the CIA, NSA; never-mind!
attending to reform of USSC, Congress, Executive (and the de-fanging of Ayatollahs-amongst-us.)


Carrion.





New It's right to be concerned; always gotta watch the watchers.
Laws and rules can always be broken. Safeguards can always miss corner-cases.

Let's fix the problems and watch the watchers.

But let's not get carried away with the hyperbole.

:-)

Yes, when President Gohmert takes office and stuffs the NSA/FBI/CIA/etc. with toadies, yes the system and the technology can be twisted to spy upon everyone at all times. J. Edgar, Jr. can be cloned and installed as Homeland Overlord. (If Bush can redefine torture as something innocuous, then lots of evil things are possible.) But that's a problem with having elections - not a problem with the NSA. Changing the laws governing the NSA won't prevent that. We have to elect sensible people.

Peace. :-)

Cheers,
Scott.
New Slightly OT re "going on since before I was born".
You and I are never going to agree on this. I'm far more aligned with Rand. It's probably because I've been in a society like this before. As a nine and ten year old kid, I remember the first thing done when we checked into a hotel was find all the microphones. I remember never using people's names only "moi droog" and if there was confusion about who one of us was talking about, into the bathroom, turn on all spigots, both heads in the sink and whisper the name once. And always just once. I'm certain that if you'd asked them, the KGB would offer up the identical rationalizations for "the need to watch and listen" as you've offered up for the NSA.

But there is one thing that just came to mind and I wonder what your reaction would have been to this event. We came back to the United States in late 1969 (a day or two before Christmas). My brother was 7 and I was 10. We'd been in the Soviet Union since early June and had attended regular Soviet primary schools. Flying in, it was snowing really hard at Washington National, so we were diverted to Boston. We were not allowed to deplane (there were only two other people on the plane besides my family of four that I remember seeing) and we were forbidden to speak to anyone. We were taken by bus to Washington. We went into a building and my father was taken down a long hall and into a room, the door shut behind him. My mother, brother and I were each taken to separate rooms. Two men in dark suits were in my room. They started asking me questions about my travels, whom I had spoken to, what my classes in school were like, what was said about US policy, what kinds of tanks and rockets I'd seen and how many, and so forth. Perhaps because of my conditioning in Soviet Russia, I did not trust these men. I answered every question with, "I don't know" or "I can't remember" or just plain "No." One of men was getting pretty angry with me and he asked, "Did you ever go to park with Pavel?" I said, "I don't know any Pavel." He asked, "You've never heard of Pavel? The KGB agent assigned you and your brother?" I said, "No." He then went over to a file cabinent, jerked open a drawer, reached in and grabbed a folder, brought it to the table where I was seated, slammed it down, opened it up and then showed me about a dozen photographs of my brother, Pavel and me at a park playing on swings (actually Pavel was pushing us on the swings). The man said, "Why are you lying to us, young man?" I did not say another word. They asked several more questions then the angry man said, "We're not going to get anything from this kid. Let him go." When they opened the door, I saw my mom sitting in the lobby and I took a seat next to her. She asked me if I'd answered all of their questions and I said, "All that I could." I remember being surprised that my interrogation lasted longer than my mom's but then, my brother and I spoke some Russian and mother never learned any. They probably knew that. At any rate, I asked my mom, "Where's Matt (my brother)?" She said, "They're still talking to him in that room" and pointed to one of the closed doors. [Keep in mind he was 7 years old]. About 45 minutes later my father came walking down the hall back to us. My brother by that time had been interrogated for over 90 minutes. When my father didn't see my brother he asked, "Where's Matt?" My mother then replied as she had replied to me. My father became angry immediately and said, "They're still talking to Matt?" Then he marched over to the door and flung it open and said, "Come on, Matt." As he walked out my father glared at the two men and said, "You sons of bitches proud of yourselves?" I peered inside and the table where Matt had been had hundreds of photographs on it. I could see that they were mostly pictures of military equipment and personnel. Some had been circled with bright red ink. It is funny how vididly I remember all this. I asked my brother what they'd been talking about for so long and he said they wanted to know what kind of tanks, missles, subs and soldiers we'd seen and where. They also showed him pictures of different people and asked if he knew them and what they talked about.

All of that was done, doubtless, to help protect the Great America People from the Red Menace. Is grilling a 7 year old for an hour and half okay, too?
New I have met a few of thiose in my time
The best example of how the government folks are really like is to watch "Harold and Kumar Escape from Guantnomo" The satire is a bit harsh on the homeland security officials, but is quite in character.
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
New No.
Of course that was not Ok.

Your father was in the foreign service or similar, no? Employees are under different standards than civilians.

Even with that, of course the agents were out of line.

Cheers,
Scott.
New State Department.
As far as I know, my father was the first American ever allowed to attend Moscow State University. I know he was offered a position with the CIA around that time because I remember eavesdropping on a conversation my mother and he had about then. She was adamantly against it and he didn't take it.

Why we were there in 1969 was that my father worked as a guide on an exhibit sponsored by the State Department. It's the "Education USA" exhibit listed for 1969-1970 here: http://www.state.gov.../ci/rs/c26473.htm

We didn't stay for the second half because of my mother. My dad had actually arranged for me to continue on with another guide, but my mother would not tolerate that. My brother and I both wanted to stay. We actually cried when we were told we had to go back to America.
New I'd love to compare the books
That post about the test in the SC grade school has me thinking about textbooks again. Years ago someone pointed out how math books will have titles like "Math" or "Beginning Algebra", chemistry books will have titles like "Introduction to Chemistry" or "Chemical Concepts", but history books have titles like "The American Century" or "Manifest Destiny".

I'd love to see the titles of the books they were using in Moscow in the late 60s.
--

Drew
New When I get back down there, assuming no theft...
My old school books were up at my late father's place. I'll try to find them the next time I head down there.
New as someone
Who will probably monitored the rest of my life (hi guys!) It certainly does have an effect. Of course, since you are a single connection away from me, I wonder how you now feel about it. You are now in the crosshairs due to association. Sorry about that.
New Anticipated.. in spirit of camaraderie, I nominate an anthem
https://www.youtube....tch?v=frAEmhqdLFs

Believe that the GRR would approve (if it's back from vacation.)
For.. Assuredly.. we Will all go together when we go.

(They may have Peta-petabytes of stored dirt--but not a full 300M places at Guantanamo. Yet.)
Hang in there--the 'Law-of-Accidental Events' seems hungrier these days. A hungry Law?? Yup.
New Finding the microphones
I remember the first thing done when we checked into a hotel was find all the microphones.
I can't vouch for the following story, which carries with it a whiff of apocrypha, but I recall reading in the 1970s a brief account of an American visitor to the USSR who performed the same drill. He even went so far as to pull up the rug, and yes! There was a little round metal plate set into a recess in the floor. He took the wing nut 'twixt thumb and forefinger, unscrewed it...and there came a crash and commotion from the room beneath his as its overhead light fixture crashed onto the floor.

As to KGB tails, one US journalist newly arrived as the Moscow bureau chief got wind of his minder early on—there appears to have been no effort made to conduct the surveillance discreetly. His "Pavel" followed close behind everywhere the reporter went. At one point the American stopped to purchase a frozen treat from a sidewalk vendor. He purchased two, and held one out behind him. This was taken wordlessly by his tail, and the two men continued on their rounds.

cordially,

PS: I've come to conclude that were we to place a mature frog and the imperturbable Another_Scott in side-by-side cauldrons over a bank of gas jets, the amphibian would be the first to jump.
New oh yeah, Fallows and frogs
I know that the old boiling frog trope is spurious, and that a frog will seek to remove itself from a fluid medium rendered uncomfortably warm. I'm just saying that the frog would notice first.

cordially,
New I know, I know. It just made me laugh, that's all. :-)
New Bonus! .. a link there to PK's prescient opus of 7-13-09
http://www.nytimes.c...krugman.html?_r=0

(Could write that one today--and it would be 'as prescient')--given what has['nt] transpired since. :-/
And So it Goes Stalls, dead-in-the-water, besides an occasional lip-service.
New He was too optimistic there, for once. :-(
New We always found some.
The funniest of these was found in a hotel we stayed in during a 2 week vacation. It was in Yalta. There was a chandelier in the room with a little bowl shapped object at the bottom. At the very bottom of that bowl was a little ball. My brother and I noticed something funny about the ball and pulled on it. The glue was apparently not quite set yet and two little wires led into the ball. My brother and I (sans any knowledge or consent) decided to try to play a joke on whomever was listening. We went outside and got two bricks, headed back to the hotel room and then whispered into the ball the Russian equivalent of "Hey, James Bond!" and then smashed the microphone. We then went out to dinner with our parents and when we returned, sure enough, a new "chandelier ball" was glued in place.

My brother and I always hoped that whomever was listening turned up the volume and leaned forward in his seat before hearing the bricks clack together.

Most of the time, IME, the mic's were easy to spot. They were usually big - about the size of a Kennedy half dollar. And, too, like your friend, the agents assigned to us (with one hilarious exception) were friendly and reasonably open about what they were doing. In fact, that vacation trip to Yalta? Our agent from Leningrad was curiously at the same beach we visited for the entire two weeks, often spreading his towel right next to ours.
New Fun with (for) eavesdroppers
A friend spent most of 1977 touring the USSR with a USIA photo exhibit. In one drab provincial town with no night life to speak of, she and two bored colleagues made their own entertainment, consisting, in her words, of "a lot of good-natured licking and sucking." She added, "I don't know if they bothered bugging our rooms, but if so, they got an earful that night."

cordially,
New While my Russki is beyond-rusty, didn't they have an Org
for tabulating such incidents? Gazporn IIRC..
New they are hoovering a small amount of messgae traffic
and sharing the results with the UK after studiously removing usain info. They share this with the commonwealth and others. I have no doubt that Cheltenham is also hoovering up traffic, removing the UK data and sharing the rest with the USA and others. Echelon has been doing that with phone calls since the 1960s. I have no issue with gathering every sigint we can offshore. That is what the NSA was designed to do. It is only when it is pointed at US do I have a major grief with it.
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
New Obummer's speech today.
Transcript and video - http://www.nytimes.c...illance.html?_r=0

It's a good read.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Good speech
Of course, he usually does a good speech. He may have a lot of faults, but honesty is not one of them. What he is actually saying is that there will be change in perception only. He will review, there are laws, spooks are people too, blah, blah, blah...
He will review means that he will do whatever the fuck he wants to.
There ARE laws, but we have two standards of law in this country: the high law for the rich and powerful, which may be disobeyed at convenience, and the law for the ruled classes, which can be used to counter the protections of the constitution. Clapper can lie to congress with impunity. Any overreach can be slugged top secret. They can make specious claims that surveillance has stopped huge numbers of attacks, but unfortunately they are all top secret. The ones we hear about are fabricated sting setups and successful attacks.
Like most of his speeches, it's total bullshit.
New This may be one of the clearer outlines of the nested
~decision-tree(s) one would ponder--if serious about actually capturing/illuminating the decision-points which are either most likely to escape scrutiny or are,
simply, not well-understood.

To me this 'nexus' should be diagrammed much like those neat graphics of OS-Wars, the useful arrows (whose color/thickness--á lá Tufte--could show at a glance such attributes as granularity (!), severity, maybe even some time-scales, etc.)
--could present huge amounts of interrelated "confirmed-Information"--as simply + completely as is possible/while pointedly evading some..
idiot-Power-Punt obfuscation which merely masquerades as a well-thought out Model does Not-masquerade.
(Such a graphical creation is another huge topic, obviously; but I think it suggests-itself when you read what here is undeniably a clear /necessarily only-verbal summary.
'Summary' of Too Much! for one medium IMO.)

It is easy to criticize some of the vagueness--though in some examples it can be seen that: likely No One has yet any 'perfect' comprehension of more than
a fraction of the interrelations which must occur in some chain from IDing a 'need for better data', on through the processing, stat-analysis, cross-checking and
n-more facets of what we lump-together and call ,,, 'demonstrable-Facts'?

From my POV, even were there to be created this 'graphic', see its refinement/correction and some clever testing of deductions it purports to illustrate,
we might well discover that: no 'committe' (of other than the professionally-immersed) might be able to Use that diagram to any new and superior Results.

It might even serve to demonstrate that 'More Security' ... may be as hollow/bogus? a concept as, the Bizness fantasy-mantra of 'Perpetual Growth'
(as if that were possible on a planet with finite surface area and already-convoluted problems of over-population/energy/thermodynamics Emergencies.)

I did not 'detect' evidence of cynical mind-fucking dissembling nor of patently fuzzy-thinking/speaking; I deemed it an honest overall-assessment of the Stakes
..should the 'Certainty'-driven ideologues ever be given carte blanche to go with their obsessions.
[Such a thing Could-not be spoken, bald-faced! I think is obvious; maybe I imagine its tacit implication? I think he IS 'that smart'.]

I doubt that he could have enhanced 'explaining' of the core of this enigma.. with any more words. (It could have been a much less-clear mish-mash of Patriotic Slogans
and a plea for a Trust-US...Because! melange of [referent-less] Liberty/Freedom/Murican Exceptionalism.

In the end though, this Very Topic is looking more like an Insoluble Problem ie. one whose 'solution' is beyond what our learned oft-imagined algorithms
prove not merely elusive but flat-unWorkable. The complexity of 'facts'-vs-infinite human capacity to misunderstand is larger than our ability to circumvent, IME.

And ... THIS (and now, so many Other huge Topics)--daily deflect worldwide Attention away-from the #1 Issue of Planetary Maintenance as a Crash Program Across All Nations.
Are We yet smart-enough to digest our predicament? It seems daily that, We Are Not.



Without that communal priority well-and-truly Established, we are rearranging the deck-chairs on the Titanic. Still.
The SCALE of this Change-of-Mindset is/would be: Unprecedented, Ergo: Time is wasting as we continue to conceal/dissemble amidst each-other as. if.
we were all in some std. perpetual hot&cold war.
     New NSA fun! - (rcareaga) - (28)
         Re: New NSA fun! - (Another Scott) - (23)
             It is their mission - (rcareaga) - (22)
                 Yes. - (Another Scott) - (21)
                     More revealing of our predicament, I think - (Ashton) - (3)
                         We're just going round and round. - (Another Scott) - (2)
                             Yes 'NSA" could be a straw-man or, a 'straw dog' horror-show - (Ashton) - (1)
                                 It's right to be concerned; always gotta watch the watchers. - (Another Scott)
                     Slightly OT re "going on since before I was born". - (mmoffitt) - (16)
                         I have met a few of thiose in my time - (boxley)
                         No. - (Another Scott) - (5)
                             State Department. - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                 I'd love to compare the books - (drook) - (1)
                                     When I get back down there, assuming no theft... - (mmoffitt)
                             as someone - (crazy) - (1)
                                 Anticipated.. in spirit of camaraderie, I nominate an anthem - (Ashton)
                         Finding the microphones - (rcareaga) - (8)
                             :-) - (Another Scott) - (4)
                                 oh yeah, Fallows and frogs - (rcareaga) - (1)
                                     I know, I know. It just made me laugh, that's all. :-) -NT - (Another Scott)
                                 Bonus! .. a link there to PK's prescient opus of 7-13-09 - (Ashton) - (1)
                                     He was too optimistic there, for once. :-( -NT - (Another Scott)
                             We always found some. - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                 Fun with (for) eavesdroppers - (rcareaga) - (1)
                                     While my Russki is beyond-rusty, didn't they have an Org - (Ashton)
         they are hoovering a small amount of messgae traffic - (boxley)
         Obummer's speech today. - (Another Scott) - (2)
             Good speech - (hnick)
             This may be one of the clearer outlines of the nested - (Ashton)

I don't know what "puerile twaddle" means.
165 ms