Not even close

Post #289,094 by bepatient 7/16/07 11:36:53 AM Reply	Not even close I simply choose not to wander around blissfully ignorant of reality. YMMV Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #289,104 by mmoffitt 7/16/07 1:03:24 PM Reply	Condemning something != Not seeing it. HTH. bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #289,106 by bepatient 7/16/07 1:30:38 PM Reply	Willful ignorance != Condemnation. HTH Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #289,245 by mmoffitt 7/17/07 12:53:23 PM Reply	Careful with that word "willful". Willful Blindness to the ill effects of "working within the system" is demonstrably worse than willful ignorance. It's not so much that those of us who chose not to be cheerleaders for corporate power don't understand that it, by and large, has significantly more influence on how all peoples live. It is that we understand it and try to work against it. You see, Beep, not all of us are so impressed with "the trains running on time." bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #289,247 by bepatient 7/17/07 1:13:15 PM 7/17/07 1:14:11 PM Reply	You simply don't get it, do you? You are taking a values discussion and imposing it on everyone, thinking that those with differing values are "corrupt", or "criminal". You then use that as a stick to try and beat down those who disagree with you. I don't have to agree with the current situation (the "status quo") to understand, though, that it is INDEED the "way things work". Like it or not, those are the rules...and until those rules change they remain the framework of "how things get done". Following the rules is NOT "corrupt" or "criminal". It is the >expectation< in civilized society. This is a completely separate discussion from "how things ought to be" and/or "what is right/wrong" and "how do we fix it?" generated from this. You see, to me, ignoring what is and demanding of everyone the unrealistic expectation of "you need to do things according to how I think they should be" is a pretty darned good example of willful ignorance. Corporations are not going away any time soon. And for all of the perceived weaknesses of the current system, nearly all here owe their very survival to the fact that they exist as a going concern. Its obvious you don't like that. Its also obvious that my recognition of this causes some people problems...and they feel compelled to make some type of value judgment from this without actually understanding anything about the real values involved. Thats not my problem at all, but theirs. If you don't like it, offer an alternative and a plan to get there. "I don't like it" doesn't fix anything. It also ignores the basic fact that there are just as many people out there that >do< like it. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew} Edited by bepatient July 17, 2007, 01:14:11 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #289,249 by boxley 7/17/07 1:38:19 PM Reply	thats not ignorance You see, to me, ignoring what is and demanding of everyone the unrealistic expectation of "you need to do things according to how I think they should be" is a pretty darned good example of burgoise communism thanx, bill Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari? Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep reach me at [link\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
Post #289,250 by bepatient 7/17/07 1:54:47 PM Reply	Possible but he may like that phrasing:-p Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #289,255 by mmoffitt 7/17/07 2:44:11 PM Reply	Well, as long as you're not trying to ... make the world a better place or anything. bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #289,258 by bepatient 7/17/07 3:12:18 PM Reply	Making it "better" tm One, "better" according to whom? And two, base assumption of your statement is that I'm not an advocate of change. I don't like income taxes in current form and support flat tax. Should I assume that the IRS will just giggle and play along when I file according to my >belief< or should I follow the procedures set forth and work through other venues to make my belief the rule? Should I ignore the current process and all the available deductions and loopholes because I don't >like< the system in place? In your view, that would make me "good". In my view, that is simply unwise. Its not an either/or. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #289,259 by mmoffitt 7/17/07 3:24:31 PM Reply	My point is your position == Complicity. And if your values are not exemplified by the status quo, why defend those values? Each of us has "played the game" to some extent. It's just that some of us have a bad taste in our mouths after doing so. And we only do so to the extent necessary and we rarely (if ever) expound upon the virtues of our efforts in playing the game. That's what I take issue with. Your almost knee-jerk reaction to defend any atrocity committed by big bizness with your rationale typically being the insufficient, "I live in the real world." Just by saying that you are not an advocate for change. On the contrary, you are defender of the corporate muck. bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #289,261 by bepatient 7/17/07 3:42:43 PM Reply	Keep jumping...maybe one day your conclusion will be right. The knee-jerking is certainly not mine. Your knee-jerking has me defending insurance companies when I've directly stated they are a problem. You knee-jerked a conversation about Moore being a whiner into defense of the US healthcare industry. The fact that I don't blindly adhere to handing the system over to the government that can't get ANYTHING right somehow makes me a defender of the status quo. Please, tell me what my next position is because you and other seem more than happy to invent them for me. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

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