Price of gas up 50 cents today...

Post #288,673 by jb4 7/10/07 10:35:10 PM Reply	Price of gas up 50 cents today... Price this morning when I left for work: $2.95.9 Price when I got home this evening: $3.44.9 Peak price today: $3.45.9 What the fuck, over? Of course, mention of a crisis in oil or gasoline production today in the "news", and Bloomberg says gasoline is down 1 cent a gallon today. What the fuck, over? More nominees for the Bullet-In-The-Brain club, I wot.... jb4 "It's hard for me, you know, living in this beautiful White House, to give you a firsthand assessment." — George W. Bush, when asked if he believed Iraq was in a state of civil war (Newsweek, 26 Feb 07)
Post #288,688 by mmoffitt 7/11/07 7:41:48 AM Reply	After some thought, I think it ought to be $5.50/gallon. $2.00/gallon tax on autogas and waive all taxes on aviation fuel (naturally). Use the $1.00/gallon for fed grants to universities, Los Alamos, etc. for fuel cell research and development with all developments being PD. The other $1.00/gallon for mass transit based on as much renewable energy as possible (like high speed electric monorails mounted on the dividers on all US interstate highways - PV cells along side the tracks? Windmill farms alongside I-40 and others?) among other things. Most of that mass transit stuff could be built with existing tech. IOW, another Public Works effort. Ike built the Interstates, why not augment them with smarter modes of transport? Personally, I am sick and tired of having our foreign policy being forced into restoring and maintaining feudalism in the ME just so some of our lesser minds can drive their UAVs to soccer practice. bcnu, Mikem Most people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so. Bertrand Russell
Post #288,693 by boxley 7/11/07 8:17:23 AM Reply	you mean like they did with the cigarette tax settlements? money gone, none of it to what was promised thanx, bill Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari? Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep reach me at [link\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
Post #288,700 by a6l6e6x 7/11/07 9:00:32 AM Reply	Add treatment of lung related diseases too. Pollution caused by fuel usage has been getting free ride. Require auto manufacturers to issue [link\|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_statement\|environmental impact statements] with every model! Alex Nobody has a more sacred obligation to obey the law than those who make the law. -- Sophocles (496? - 406 BCE)
Post #288,702 by mmoffitt 7/11/07 9:44:10 AM Reply	Environmental Impact Statements. Great idea! In gradeschool in Long Beach, CA a teacher told my class that "By 1990 (or was it 2000?), it will be illegal to drive a car that burns gasoline in the state of California." That was circa 1968. A reasonable presumption back then. After all, we'd put men in space in a lot less than 28 years and 2H2 + 02 => 2H20 gave you a lot of bang for the buck. Doubtless she thought that'd be harnessed for automobiles well by now. Ah, the long past age of optimism... bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #288,706 by bepatient 7/11/07 12:08:17 PM Reply	See above...big tobacco paid for that already :-/ Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #288,711 by mmoffitt 7/11/07 2:34:57 PM Reply	His point stands. I had a chest xray when I was in my twenties. I never smoked - anything - ever at that point (for a brief time in my thirties, I smoked tobacco in a pipe). When the radiologist looked at my film he asked, "How long has it been since you quit smoking?" When I told him I had never smoked, but that I had grown up in So Cal (1963-1979) he remarked, "Oh. Well, that makes sense then." My mother worked as a nurse at Kaiser and a pulmonary physician once told her and me that breathing the air in So Cal at that time was "roughly equivalent to smoking two packs of cigarettes a day." Do not underestimate the damage to the lungs by the burning of fossil fuels. Especially when that burn is done in automobiles - which perform at what? maybe 18% efficiency overall? If automobile technology has improved so much, why is car exhaust still hot? bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #288,717 by bepatient 7/11/07 3:47:15 PM Reply	I understand all that... ...but we were told the billions collected from big tobacco would handle all that, weren't we? So now we'll be told the billions collected from this will pay for all that...again. Of course, this time we should believe them....right? Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #288,718 by jake123 7/11/07 4:03:33 PM Reply	Well, fixing the systemic problems in your country's medical system would go much further, imho. However, that seems a lot less likely to me than the collection of billions, somehow. That's not really a comment on the worthiness of the idea, though; in fact, making people bear the brunt of the whole true cost of using fossil fuels is a very sound idea. It IS a comment on the elites in your country, who as a class are looking pretty damned pathetic.
Post #288,719 by bepatient 7/11/07 4:09:15 PM Reply	How so exactly? pretty sweeping generalization in that post, especially considering where the largest growth in fossil fuel use is coming from and where most of the environmental damage is being done. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #288,763 by jake123 7/12/07 9:19:56 AM Reply	That when they get an excuse to collect some kind of tax based on dealing with costs to the commons of some kind of activity (smoking, driving, etc) and do so, instead of using it to actually deal with the damages to the commons being caused by said activity, they just blow it on whatever. It's not like we don't get that crap up here, either, but at least it's understood that health care insurance should be run on a non-profit basis.
Post #288,765 by bepatient 7/12/07 9:26:17 AM Reply	OK..misunderstanding of terms elites versus politicians. they are not always the same. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #288,770 by jake123 7/12/07 9:56:28 AM Reply	Well, in my mind I'm nailing both why hasn't the REST of the US business community taken the health insurance system to task as fucking with their business? The costs to other firms of the US health system look absolutely unbelievable to me. Further, you've got a situation where the courts look like they're trying to make it harder for working people to benefit from your economic system, not easier, for the benefit of people further up the economic food chain (cf- recent decisions about overtime, worker protections in certain areas largely served by immigrant populations, both legal and illegal, as well as giving every employer who screwed anyone on the basis of race gender etc more than six months ago a complete free ride: zero penalties for out and out bigotry). So, political, professional, and legal elites are fundamentally beggaring the nation as a whole for their own benefit. This is not something that will serve the US well in the short term, let alone the US and those self same elites in the long term. Not only is it mean-spirited and grasping, it's dumb.
Post #288,788 by mmoffitt 7/12/07 1:14:18 PM Reply	Partial answer. why hasn't the REST of the US business community taken the health insurance system to task as fucking with their business? The costs to other firms of the US health system look absolutely unbelievable to me. A big part of this is that typically those on or near the top rung of the corporate ladder have the most health problems. Consequently, they want to buy the best healthcare they can. And, of course, not wanting to purchase anything that isn't a tax right off for them, they purchase that through their biznesses. We do have some modest laws here that, in essence, lead to "what's good for the goose..." reasoning. That is, if the fat cats at the top want premium health insurance, the same plans have to be offered to the wage slaves. What typically happens then, is that the fat cats give themselves bonuses to cover their healthcare premiums and the wage slaves opt out (having no chance in hell of paying for it themselves out of pocket). Also, as healthcare insurance costs have gone up here, wage slaves have seen their benefits cut and the majority of the cost increases hitting their wages directly (iow, wage slaves pay more and more of the corporate purchased healthcare premium themselves). The spiralling healthcare costs, then, have disproportionately affected wage slaves. And in Murica, who cares about them? As you so rightly point out, certainly not our gubbamint. bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #288,790 by bepatient 7/12/07 1:24:36 PM Reply	not the right one either. benefits programs by and large are now "self insure" programs for companies...and the providers handle the paperwork. However, doctors have gotten used to (and medicare is a HUGE factor in this) having these providers lowball payments to doctors. So the doctors must hike rates hugely to make their return. Take for example my recent dentist visit. Billed over $200 and she will get $60 for it. Until this process is forced onto people in a very visible manner, it won't change. Making it "government" healthcare won't help...they're as much the problem as any private insurance company. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #288,793 by jake123 7/12/07 3:08:36 PM Reply	That last statement's problematic after all, most of the rest of the west has figured out how to do health insurance by the state without government being as "big a problem as the rest of the industry." Simply put, the scientific method would seem to indicate that the last statement is just wrong.
Post #288,796 by bepatient 7/12/07 4:27:18 PM Reply	As you are so fond of noticing we are not the rest of the west. And there is large scale debate as to who has "figured out" what in this. We still import alot of medical procedures. The issue in our system, and the >current< government system that we have is that its simply a shell game. Dr's charge one amount, medicare pays something else, hmos something else...and the patient generally sees nothing of this. I would bet that less than 1% of insured people in this country know what the dr actually receives in payment for services rendered. In fact, I'd be comfortable making that number .1%. Whats to complain about if you don't know. To fix what we have here will require blowing up everything and starting over..and I dont find that likely at all, unfortunately. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #288,839 by mmoffitt 7/13/07 8:07:35 AM Reply	It won't take "blowing up everything". It might take violent revolution. But, there are less bloody solutions. They require that money != speech, elimination of lobbying, and an elimination of private insurance. It's not just healthcare that private insurance screws up. Everything from healthcare to home ownership to driving an auto to flying a plane is unnecessarily burdened with greedy mf'ing corporate insurance slime demanding (through their government - aka the fed and state govt's) that we line their pockets. Seriously, dude. In healthcare, private admin costs ranged from 18%-20% or more while the fed did the exact same function for 10%. 8-10% savings right off the bat for just letting the fed process claims is a HUGE amount of money. Not to mention the lack of profit incentive if it's all done through public works. With apologies, "The first thing we do, let's kill all the insurance companies." bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #288,794 by mmoffitt 7/12/07 4:19:41 PM Reply	by and large B.S. By and large LARGE companies self-fund. A single employee with a health problem would wipe out a small firm trying to self-fund. Nice try. bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #288,795 by bepatient 7/12/07 4:22:08 PM Reply	well I would hardly class those with your post saying that it was the big wigs of the big companies buying what they want and giving themselves bonuses to cover. Stay on target, Red V. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #288,800 by hnick 7/12/07 4:35:14 PM Reply	You have a nice dentist. I've been going to the same dentist for 20 some years after going to a few that could have found work in "A little shop of horrors". He's not on the insurance plan that my company has. This means that when he charges $300 and the insurance company pays $60, I pay the $240. I guess it's in my best interest to keep my fangs in shape :-/
Post #288,801 by bepatient 7/12/07 4:39:02 PM Reply	She's in plan and she is a nice lady. I do have some 80/20 stuff where I have to pay too. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #288,807 by CRConrad 7/12/07 7:40:54 PM Reply	Not that I understand exactly, in detail, WTF you're on... ...about in the rest of the thread down from approximately this post I'm replying to here, but it seems to me that in general, it's a defense of the pro-businesness and anti-workerness of the current US health insurance system. Just like pretty much ANY other post by you on political and economical subjects is a defense of the pro-businesness and anti-workerness of whatever-the-subject-happens-to-be in US politics and economy. But go ahead and correct me if I'm wrong; I'm dying to hear whose side your contributions to this thread (from about the post I'm attaching this to) are really supposed to be read as being on. And how this doesn't support any of my earlier -- also oh-so-mistaken, according to your replies throughout the years -- observations of your totally weird-ass general Big-Bizness-Über-Alles political stance. I mean, I really don't get it... are YOU, personally, a Big-Bizness-Corporation, or an ordinary flesh-and-blood-John-Doe person? Then YTF do you so consistently take the side of Big-Bizness-Corporations, against ordinary flesh-and-blood-John-Doe persons?!? I just don't get it. [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link\|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603\|Jehovah]
Post #288,809 by bepatient 7/12/07 8:21:27 PM Reply	We could certainly your country and my country and Canada and everyone...cost fossil fuels at the "damages" level. No matter what >we< do, [link\|http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/07/070709-china-pollution.html\|the worst offenders] will do nothing. So you can call this pro-bizness if you like, but I tend to call it realism. It makes zero sense to cripple yourself against your competition if the act of crippling yourself does NOTHING to fix the problem you define. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #288,820 by CRConrad 7/12/07 8:52:08 PM Reply	WTF do fossil fuels and China have to do with anything??? We were talking about the worker-hostile, corporation-friendly, US health insurance system. Your gibbering about fossil fuels and China in response is about as helpful and relevant as a Bushling in a Congressional subcommittee hearing. Which is, BTW, what you come off as in general. [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link\|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603\|Jehovah]
Post #288,824 by bepatient 7/12/07 9:04:36 PM Reply	Why don't you actually read the thread? Or do you enjoy kneejerking my posts like the left coasters? Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #288,879 by Ashton 7/13/07 5:05:19 PM Reply	'Left' then responds to 'Right'-eousness-cha-cha-cha All along . . . It's understandable that you have to eat your own dogfood, somehow justify daily congress with the Suits.. in order to climb that same ladder with the peculiarly shaped/greased rungs.. (Why, if'n you Noticed rilly-close the %lying that attends that entire process, the nearby corners stuffed with folk already way above that there level-of-incompetence thing -- why, in time the neurons just might cut off that supply of endorphins / substituting a gag-reflex.) It happens, I hear - and Soma doesn't seem to reduce the symptoms. But your unremitting slander of those who work daily in an arena where Advertainment is NOT their raison'd, all while selecting your Econ-data to suggest that Profit is the only carrot which produces results: betrays merely a well-conditioned mindset, the adoring of a crass Machiavellian idol along with whatever other things reside in that personal Idol box. While the ills of any bureaucracy demand as much vigilance to control normal human cupidity as that wasted on: Next Quarter's {imaginary, ever-increasing} Profit-number - - we have seen perhaps the Last Time that Bizness actually collaborated for the National Good: When Mr. Douglas succeeded in convincing all the aircraft manufacturers to :-0 :-0 :-0 Immediately Share [!!] their patents, designs, methods, for National survival. This, in one of the most 'competitive' arenas extant. ('Course too.. FDR could speak English, when he met with Douglas et al, prior to the formation of this 'Agency', created for the Duration of WWII.) And then there's Halliburton, but also smiling Berkshire Hathaway -personified. Thus all generalizations remain false - including yours about the possibilities of sane government oversight (as practised, apparently - in many locales. Just not Murican locales.) We be a nation of Retards, then? Hey - you're a Peer. Then. :-/ ;^> ___
Post #288,921 by bepatient 7/13/07 10:40:08 PM Reply	Until the rules change to the ones you like I will continue to play by the ones that currently exist. I'll leave the revolution to mmoffitt. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #289,089 by mmoffitt 7/16/07 11:20:40 AM 7/17/07 12:49:48 PM Reply	That reeks of "Love it or Leave it." In a corrupt system then, merely playing by the corrupt rules to "get ahead" does not, in and of itself, leave one tarnished? Please. [Edit: Tpyo] bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac. Edited by mmoffitt July 16, 2007, 12:51:10 PM EDT Edited by mmoffitt July 17, 2007, 12:49:48 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #289,094 by bepatient 7/16/07 11:36:53 AM Reply	Not even close I simply choose not to wander around blissfully ignorant of reality. YMMV Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #289,104 by mmoffitt 7/16/07 1:03:24 PM Reply	Condemning something != Not seeing it. HTH. bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #289,106 by bepatient 7/16/07 1:30:38 PM Reply	Willful ignorance != Condemnation. HTH Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #289,245 by mmoffitt 7/17/07 12:53:23 PM Reply	Careful with that word "willful". Willful Blindness to the ill effects of "working within the system" is demonstrably worse than willful ignorance. It's not so much that those of us who chose not to be cheerleaders for corporate power don't understand that it, by and large, has significantly more influence on how all peoples live. It is that we understand it and try to work against it. You see, Beep, not all of us are so impressed with "the trains running on time." bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #289,247 by bepatient 7/17/07 1:13:15 PM 7/17/07 1:14:11 PM Reply	You simply don't get it, do you? You are taking a values discussion and imposing it on everyone, thinking that those with differing values are "corrupt", or "criminal". You then use that as a stick to try and beat down those who disagree with you. I don't have to agree with the current situation (the "status quo") to understand, though, that it is INDEED the "way things work". Like it or not, those are the rules...and until those rules change they remain the framework of "how things get done". Following the rules is NOT "corrupt" or "criminal". It is the >expectation< in civilized society. This is a completely separate discussion from "how things ought to be" and/or "what is right/wrong" and "how do we fix it?" generated from this. You see, to me, ignoring what is and demanding of everyone the unrealistic expectation of "you need to do things according to how I think they should be" is a pretty darned good example of willful ignorance. Corporations are not going away any time soon. And for all of the perceived weaknesses of the current system, nearly all here owe their very survival to the fact that they exist as a going concern. Its obvious you don't like that. Its also obvious that my recognition of this causes some people problems...and they feel compelled to make some type of value judgment from this without actually understanding anything about the real values involved. Thats not my problem at all, but theirs. If you don't like it, offer an alternative and a plan to get there. "I don't like it" doesn't fix anything. It also ignores the basic fact that there are just as many people out there that >do< like it. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew} Edited by bepatient July 17, 2007, 01:14:11 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #289,249 by boxley 7/17/07 1:38:19 PM Reply	thats not ignorance You see, to me, ignoring what is and demanding of everyone the unrealistic expectation of "you need to do things according to how I think they should be" is a pretty darned good example of burgoise communism thanx, bill Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari? Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep reach me at [link\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net\|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
Post #289,250 by bepatient 7/17/07 1:54:47 PM Reply	Possible but he may like that phrasing:-p Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #289,255 by mmoffitt 7/17/07 2:44:11 PM Reply	Well, as long as you're not trying to ... make the world a better place or anything. bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #289,258 by bepatient 7/17/07 3:12:18 PM Reply	Making it "better" tm One, "better" according to whom? And two, base assumption of your statement is that I'm not an advocate of change. I don't like income taxes in current form and support flat tax. Should I assume that the IRS will just giggle and play along when I file according to my >belief< or should I follow the procedures set forth and work through other venues to make my belief the rule? Should I ignore the current process and all the available deductions and loopholes because I don't >like< the system in place? In your view, that would make me "good". In my view, that is simply unwise. Its not an either/or. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #289,259 by mmoffitt 7/17/07 3:24:31 PM Reply	My point is your position == Complicity. And if your values are not exemplified by the status quo, why defend those values? Each of us has "played the game" to some extent. It's just that some of us have a bad taste in our mouths after doing so. And we only do so to the extent necessary and we rarely (if ever) expound upon the virtues of our efforts in playing the game. That's what I take issue with. Your almost knee-jerk reaction to defend any atrocity committed by big bizness with your rationale typically being the insufficient, "I live in the real world." Just by saying that you are not an advocate for change. On the contrary, you are defender of the corporate muck. bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #289,261 by bepatient 7/17/07 3:42:43 PM Reply	Keep jumping...maybe one day your conclusion will be right. The knee-jerking is certainly not mine. Your knee-jerking has me defending insurance companies when I've directly stated they are a problem. You knee-jerked a conversation about Moore being a whiner into defense of the US healthcare industry. The fact that I don't blindly adhere to handing the system over to the government that can't get ANYTHING right somehow makes me a defender of the status quo. Please, tell me what my next position is because you and other seem more than happy to invent them for me. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #289,187 by CRConrad 7/17/07 2:58:10 AM Reply	Not to wreck your ideas of wreaking, but usually it's havoc. That you wreak, I mean. One hardly ever hears about anyone wreaking anything but havoc nowadays. Well, death. And destruction. You can wreak death and destruction upon your enemies, too, in addition to wreaking havoc upon them. (Scorn, though, you don't wreak but heap upon them.) But when something smells to high heaven -- like BeeP's politics, for instance -- we usually say it reeks. HTH! [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link\|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603\|Jehovah]
Post #289,194 by Another Scott 7/17/07 6:36:40 AM Reply	Post of the Day!
Post #289,201 by mmoffitt 7/17/07 8:21:50 AM Reply	Damn. I know better than that. Thanks. It did H. bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #289,214 by bepatient 7/17/07 8:51:38 AM Reply	Yep understanding how the planet works makes me evil! Evil I tell you.. Thats the brimstone you're smelling. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #289,260 by a6l6e6x 7/17/07 3:41:47 PM Reply	Re: the brimstone, but OT. Speaking of fire and brimstone, how is your hand doing? The one hurt during the fireworks display. Alex Nobody has a more sacred obligation to obey the law than those who make the law. -- Sophocles (496? - 406 BCE)
Post #289,262 by bepatient 7/17/07 3:43:33 PM Reply	:-) Fine thanks Blisters drained and largely healed. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #289,497 by mmoffitt 7/20/07 2:33:30 PM Reply	Yikes. Didn't know you were injured. Glad to hear you're feeling better. bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #289,501 by bepatient 7/20/07 2:58:31 PM Reply	All minor I got away without any major mishaps on the grill only to get flash burns on the hands from the fireworks. Its all part of the fun :-) Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #289,505 by a6l6e6x 7/20/07 3:54:58 PM Reply	Re: part of the fun :-) ??? Are you a closet masochist? Seriously, I'm sorry you were hurt more than I thought I overheard at the time. Alex Nobody has a more sacred obligation to obey the law than those who make the law. -- Sophocles (496? - 406 BCE)
Post #289,507 by bepatient 7/20/07 4:07:04 PM Reply	Just a few blisters one or 2 bigger than the others. Not a big deal really. After the first one I could have switched lighters and/or lighting methods...but when "in the moment"...only hurt for a day or 2. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #288,714 by inthane-chan 7/11/07 3:10:31 PM Reply	Dude. Read "The Long Emergency". Cliff notes version: We're fucked. Longer version: When the oil runs out, we're fucked. Odoru aho ni miru aho! Onaji aho nara odoranya son son!
Post #288,715 by hnick 7/11/07 3:19:40 PM Reply	They've got Cliff notes for Idiots Guides?? I'm assuming that it's an Idiots Guide to the future you're discussing since your summation is pretty much "DUH!".
Post #288,716 by inthane-chan 7/11/07 3:29:50 PM Reply	Point being... ...alternative energy sources are not going to save our collective asses. We're looking down the barrel of a howitzer, and the guy on the other end has a itchy trigger finger. Our agricultural "miracle" is dependent on cheap oil, our economy is based on cheap oil, the global market is based on cheap oil - and when that runs out, there's pretty much nothing we can do about it. Even the biomass processors depend on oil-based agriculture to provide enough waste input to recover some of the energy that is used in producing the main product. It's one hell of a depressing book. Odoru aho ni miru aho! Onaji aho nara odoranya son son!
Post #288,720 by hnick 7/11/07 4:13:36 PM Reply	Sure, though I take a yes/no view of it. The alternative energy sources now being touted are based on previous economy. They drag along all the existing problems while only putting off the imminent crisis. If our society is to survive, it will have to change. There is where the fun part hangs out. Will it take a violent revolution or can we change to a more reasonable system that will let us carry on for a while longer? Damnifiknow. As a society, we are becoming a LOT more dumbed down, and we may be losing the capacity to react in society's best interest. In which case, as you say, we're fucked. On the other paw, if we still have some real leadership and working brains still allowed to function, we might pull it off. We can always die. Individually or as a society. I haven't lost yet, betting that I'm going to survive until tomorrow... YMMV
Post #288,749 by mmoffitt 7/12/07 7:53:44 AM Reply	Violent revolution. The 21st century is the century of the vindication of Marxist doctrine, dontchaknow. ;0) bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.

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