That when they get an excuse to collect some kind of

Post #288,763 by jake123 7/12/07 9:19:56 AM Reply	That when they get an excuse to collect some kind of tax based on dealing with costs to the commons of some kind of activity (smoking, driving, etc) and do so, instead of using it to actually deal with the damages to the commons being caused by said activity, they just blow it on whatever. It's not like we don't get that crap up here, either, but at least it's understood that health care insurance should be run on a non-profit basis.
Post #288,765 by bepatient 7/12/07 9:26:17 AM Reply	OK..misunderstanding of terms elites versus politicians. they are not always the same. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #288,770 by jake123 7/12/07 9:56:28 AM Reply	Well, in my mind I'm nailing both why hasn't the REST of the US business community taken the health insurance system to task as fucking with their business? The costs to other firms of the US health system look absolutely unbelievable to me. Further, you've got a situation where the courts look like they're trying to make it harder for working people to benefit from your economic system, not easier, for the benefit of people further up the economic food chain (cf- recent decisions about overtime, worker protections in certain areas largely served by immigrant populations, both legal and illegal, as well as giving every employer who screwed anyone on the basis of race gender etc more than six months ago a complete free ride: zero penalties for out and out bigotry). So, political, professional, and legal elites are fundamentally beggaring the nation as a whole for their own benefit. This is not something that will serve the US well in the short term, let alone the US and those self same elites in the long term. Not only is it mean-spirited and grasping, it's dumb.
Post #288,788 by mmoffitt 7/12/07 1:14:18 PM Reply	Partial answer. why hasn't the REST of the US business community taken the health insurance system to task as fucking with their business? The costs to other firms of the US health system look absolutely unbelievable to me. A big part of this is that typically those on or near the top rung of the corporate ladder have the most health problems. Consequently, they want to buy the best healthcare they can. And, of course, not wanting to purchase anything that isn't a tax right off for them, they purchase that through their biznesses. We do have some modest laws here that, in essence, lead to "what's good for the goose..." reasoning. That is, if the fat cats at the top want premium health insurance, the same plans have to be offered to the wage slaves. What typically happens then, is that the fat cats give themselves bonuses to cover their healthcare premiums and the wage slaves opt out (having no chance in hell of paying for it themselves out of pocket). Also, as healthcare insurance costs have gone up here, wage slaves have seen their benefits cut and the majority of the cost increases hitting their wages directly (iow, wage slaves pay more and more of the corporate purchased healthcare premium themselves). The spiralling healthcare costs, then, have disproportionately affected wage slaves. And in Murica, who cares about them? As you so rightly point out, certainly not our gubbamint. bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #288,790 by bepatient 7/12/07 1:24:36 PM Reply	not the right one either. benefits programs by and large are now "self insure" programs for companies...and the providers handle the paperwork. However, doctors have gotten used to (and medicare is a HUGE factor in this) having these providers lowball payments to doctors. So the doctors must hike rates hugely to make their return. Take for example my recent dentist visit. Billed over $200 and she will get $60 for it. Until this process is forced onto people in a very visible manner, it won't change. Making it "government" healthcare won't help...they're as much the problem as any private insurance company. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #288,793 by jake123 7/12/07 3:08:36 PM Reply	That last statement's problematic after all, most of the rest of the west has figured out how to do health insurance by the state without government being as "big a problem as the rest of the industry." Simply put, the scientific method would seem to indicate that the last statement is just wrong.
Post #288,796 by bepatient 7/12/07 4:27:18 PM Reply	As you are so fond of noticing we are not the rest of the west. And there is large scale debate as to who has "figured out" what in this. We still import alot of medical procedures. The issue in our system, and the >current< government system that we have is that its simply a shell game. Dr's charge one amount, medicare pays something else, hmos something else...and the patient generally sees nothing of this. I would bet that less than 1% of insured people in this country know what the dr actually receives in payment for services rendered. In fact, I'd be comfortable making that number .1%. Whats to complain about if you don't know. To fix what we have here will require blowing up everything and starting over..and I dont find that likely at all, unfortunately. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #288,839 by mmoffitt 7/13/07 8:07:35 AM Reply	It won't take "blowing up everything". It might take violent revolution. But, there are less bloody solutions. They require that money != speech, elimination of lobbying, and an elimination of private insurance. It's not just healthcare that private insurance screws up. Everything from healthcare to home ownership to driving an auto to flying a plane is unnecessarily burdened with greedy mf'ing corporate insurance slime demanding (through their government - aka the fed and state govt's) that we line their pockets. Seriously, dude. In healthcare, private admin costs ranged from 18%-20% or more while the fed did the exact same function for 10%. 8-10% savings right off the bat for just letting the fed process claims is a HUGE amount of money. Not to mention the lack of profit incentive if it's all done through public works. With apologies, "The first thing we do, let's kill all the insurance companies." bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #288,794 by mmoffitt 7/12/07 4:19:41 PM Reply	by and large B.S. By and large LARGE companies self-fund. A single employee with a health problem would wipe out a small firm trying to self-fund. Nice try. bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #288,795 by bepatient 7/12/07 4:22:08 PM Reply	well I would hardly class those with your post saying that it was the big wigs of the big companies buying what they want and giving themselves bonuses to cover. Stay on target, Red V. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #288,800 by hnick 7/12/07 4:35:14 PM Reply	You have a nice dentist. I've been going to the same dentist for 20 some years after going to a few that could have found work in "A little shop of horrors". He's not on the insurance plan that my company has. This means that when he charges $300 and the insurance company pays $60, I pay the $240. I guess it's in my best interest to keep my fangs in shape :-/
Post #288,801 by bepatient 7/12/07 4:39:02 PM Reply	She's in plan and she is a nice lady. I do have some 80/20 stuff where I have to pay too. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

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