I don't have a shades of grey view of unions

Post #260,197 by jake123 6/27/06 8:54:03 PM Reply	I don't have a shades of grey view of unions just look at workplaces before and after unions and try to say they're a bad thing. I don't give a fuck about ideology, I'm concerned with results, and unions delivered results in spades. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #260,199 by Another Scott 6/27/06 9:10:37 PM Reply	They did many good things. Unfortunately, there are many examples of unions going too far in setting work rules and so forth. It's true that these things could not have gotten out of hand without the acquiescence of management, but GM, Ford, the airlines, etc., etc., are all in dire straits in large part because of their union contracts. I don't think even Microsoft could afford the long term cost of the [link\|http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179.htm\|Job Bank] that the UAW workers have/had. Like it or not, economies have to be able to change and adapt to improved processes, brighter employees, and changing demand. Union contracts too often try to preserve the status-quo for the current members at the long-term cost of the company's health and ultimately the employees suffer as well. My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
Post #260,203 by jake123 6/27/06 9:30:47 PM Reply	That's nice Let's compare that to twelve hour days for cents an hour, no sick days, no parental leave, fired for not filling quotas, monster industrial maiming with no compensation due to the horribly dangerous conditions, child labour, etc. In the overall scheme of things, having the shareholders of a few industrial dinosaurs take a rough ride because of their incompetent management's inability to negotiate or to be willing to take the short term losses to get the contract to ensure the long term survivability of the firm doesn't strike me as a terrible price to pay. Of course union contracts try to preserve the status quo for the long term empoloyees; just as shareholders demand a steady stream of profit, so do workers. It's their job, fer chrissakes, just as it's the job of management to say no when necessary, and be willing to show the union why they have to say no. Once again, afaic, history trumps ideology; go read [link\|http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=br_ss_hs/102-7962868-6440160?platform=gurupa&url=index%3Dblended&keywords=The+Jungle&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Go\|The Jungle] to get a handle on how bad things were before unions. I don't care what the little system says how it's supposed to work; I'm more interested in seeing what worked before: you know, the scientific method. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #260,210 by Another Scott 6/27/06 10:55:17 PM Reply	I seem to have struck a nerve. Sorry about that. I'm not arguing against the existence unions. You've made your view plainly apparent. I guess I need to do better in making mine, but not tonight. If you haven't yet, and have the time, Halberstam's [link\|http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/03/15/home/halberstam-reckoning.html?_r=1&oref=slogin\|The Reckoning] is a very good read. It's about the post-war auto industry in the US and Japan, with an emphasis on Ford and Nissan. It's just as relevant today, though it came out 20 years ago. Some parts of his thesis don't hold up, but on the whole it's a powerful telling of the rise and fall of the auto industry in the US in the 2nd half of the 20th century. Cheers, Scott.

Welcome to IWETHEY!