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New That's a very old post
I think they actually collaborate now (use same source code repository).

I know the Safari developers (in an online sense) and they're good guys trying to do the right thing.




"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
Collapse Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:32:02 AM EDT
That's a very old post
I think they actually collaborate now (use same source code repository).

I know the Safari developers (in an online sense) and they're good guys trying to do the right thing.




"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New It is under a year old
And from the sound of the differences, it would take some serious work for them to have started collaborating in the meantime. If there was such a collaboration, I'd expect to see publicity about it. A quick Google search did not find any. The closest I found was [link|http://lwn.net/Articles/136538/|http://lwn.net/Articles/136538/], but there was no followup that I saw to that article.

So unless you can point me to something concrete from the KDE folks indicating that they are now feeling the love from Apple, I'm going to not believe your claim that they now collaborate. Which puts KHTML, like Darwin, in my list of projects that Apple did rather less with than the initial publicity would lead people to believe.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Things move fast
[link|http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/1129|http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/1129]

"With the help of Hyatt's Safari patches, Ivor Hewitt(*) and I have finally made Konqueror pass Acid2 as only the second browser."

Furthermore they have opensourced the derivative - WebKit and there have been browsers built on other platforms based on the WebKit code.

The post you cite was one that spurred the opensourcing of [link|http://webkit.opendarwin.org/building/checkout.html|WebKit].



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
Expand Edited by tuberculosis March 13, 2006, 11:31:06 PM EST
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:34:18 AM EDT
New Please clarify
Were the Konqueror improvements the result of Apple assisting in figuring out how to backport their changes, or was it the result of people looking at what Apple had to release because of the license? That is, is that incident really a sign of active cooperation from Apple?

About WebKit, I'm glad that they open sourced it, but my immediate reaction is that it is an insincere publicity move. Kind of like the kid who says "Sorry" after receiving a lecture from mom about the importance of apologizing. That they acted well after having their nose rubbed in the value of doing so is essential, but how they act once the reminder has faded from memory is far more telling.

Neither example has substantially changed my impression of Apple's relationship with the open source community.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New The post that you cite
resulted in Hyatt and Malone (the Safari team as I know it) reaching out to the K people and trying to find some common ground/improve code sharing. It was kind of the trigger.

So I'd say it has changed, they are trying to do the right thing, WebKit is being used beyond apple, and I don't think they're being ungrateful leaches about it. Bear in mind that K was immature and Apple had to put a lot into it to have a decent web browser SOON as IE was being EOL'd.

Could they have put more into it sooner? I suppose, at the risk of jeopardizing their ship dates, which might not have been an option.

There's a balance there. WebKit remains up to date, there's a blog that talks about what's going on with it, and there are outside developers with commit rights. Seems pretty open to me. The fact that it seems to have ended up a fork is unfortunate, but might have been necessary. That's life.



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:35:55 AM EDT
New Sounds like desperate rationalisation on your part.
Wow, talk about a prime example of having drunk the Kool-Aid, by the gallon.

This whole thread has been a bit surreal... I used to think of you as an industry critic -- and maybe you are, on any aspect of the industry *except* Apple. But when it comes to that company, you're apparently as deep into the Reality Distortion Field as anyone I've ever seen.


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Yes Mr. Garrison, genetic engineering lets us correct God's horrible, horrible mistakes, like German people. - [link|http://maxpages.com/southpark2k/Episode_105|Mr. Hat]
New No, Apple is plenty flakey in lots of areas
but on this particular issue - I don't think its fair.

I work with the Safari developers on compatibility issues and I know them as people. Its a little harder to think of people you "know" being evil than it is to think of corporations being evil.

They want to do the right thing. They have an employer and customer base to please too.


Hyatt writes: [link|http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/hyatt/archives/2005_04.html|http://weblogs.mozil...ives/2005_04.html]

"For what it's worth, the patches I posted are to WebCore, which consists of both KHTML and KWQ (our port of Qt). They are posted to illustrate all the WebCore bugs that had to be fixed in Safari to pass the Acid2 test. They are not solely KHTML patches. The antialiasing bug was in KWQ, and so doesn't even apply to KHTML. The better object element support necessarily involves KWQ as well, since the plugin code is (obviously) platform-specific.

What do you think Apple could be doing better here? Comment or trackback. I'll read it all."

And one of the complaints is:

"The annoying part is not that Apple don't cooperate as much as they could. They are actually helpfull in answering questions and _tries_ at least to separate OS X specific features in the code (allthough they fail miserably at it). No, our problem are users who think Apple does more and underestimate the effort it takes for us to implement patches from WebCore. We are doing this for free and for fun, all we really want is appreciation for our effort.

In December 2004 I "ported" the CSS text-shadow property from WebCore. I put ported in quotes because the only thing ported was the code to parse the property. In the rendering Apple had created an extension to KWQ (their Qt) that used an OS X call to draw the shadow. This meant that to "port" it I had to write the shadow drawing myself. "

So the complaint isn't that Apple doesn't give back its stuff. Its that people don't appreciate the amount of work the Konqueror people still have to do because their target OS has less to work with.

But what was Hyatt to do? Write his own shadow code when he already has code in his target OS to implement it? That would be bloody stupid and I can't blame him for taking the short cut as I would have done exactly the same thing. (Actually, I did exactly that sort of thing with ObjectiveCLIPS - lots of ObjectiveC/Apple specific code was added to a base open source library - I forked it to make it more useful - so sue me).

No, instead their response was to listen and then open it all up. [link|http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/hyatt/archives/2005_06.html#008281|http://weblogs.mozil...05_06.html#008281]

So lets recap - the real problem is the ungrateful Konqueror community.

"When I said "all we want is appreciation" I didn't mean "Look at me, I am so good.". I was hinting at users who are down right rude.
Look at bugs.kde.org and you can find many Konqueror bugs where the users are telling us how incredible lazy and lame we are because we don't just copy all the shit Apple is doing "for us"."

Fucking ungrateful linux users looks more like the correct root cause to me.

I can't comment on other open source efforts at Apple but I've been in the middle of this one and its not Apple's fault.



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:36:40 AM EDT
New So, what is WebKit's User-Agent string again...?
Idunno, you *may* be right... But I'm not sure.

I mean, to take just one example, presumably they knew pretty soon that their release of KHTML was going to be a complete fork; and they were asked when, over a year ago?, to change the User-Agent string to something other than "khtml". Are we supposed to believe *that* was because they "have an employer and customer base to please"? Too big a change to implement before release deadline, with Steve breathing down their necks? Or is it millions of Safari users, demanding with one voice, "No! Don't change the User-Agent string to 'safari' in our browser!"? Somehow, I doubt it...

Essentially, what you're saying is that you are blinded not only by the Jobsian RDF, but also by being friends with some of these people. Are you seriously trying to claim that makes you *less* biased about them and what they do?


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Yes Mr. Garrison, genetic engineering lets us correct God's horrible, horrible mistakes, like German people. - [link|http://maxpages.com/southpark2k/Episode_105|Mr. Hat]
New It doesn't have one
Its up to the browser to provide it. Safari's is Safari (<version-number>). This goes all the way back to 1.1 at least (current is 2.04 I think).

This is annoying because it fragment's all the Safari versions across our metrics report. It does not say khtml I don't think - did it ever? Not sure.

Maybe I'm biased, but I'd behave the same way in their shoes. KHhtml just provides the parser and the DOM I think - basically it does the same thing I did for Scrutinizer. The converting DOM to pixels is done in a platform dependent way through Apple's Qt compatibility library that in turn calls Quartz. Many fixes end up in this layer and don't help the K people. Oh well. Do they have to back port all those changes to K's rendering engine?

I don't see why they should. Its a completely different beast.

I don't think I'm blinded by the RDF - but I do identify with the people involved in this instance.






"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:37:10 AM EDT
New Re: So, what is WebKit's User-Agent string again...?
It's "Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/417.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Safari/417.9.2"


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New That would mean I was at least partly wrong
i.e, That the old complaints I'd read had apparently been addressed.


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Yes Mr. Garrison, genetic engineering lets us correct God's horrible, horrible mistakes, like German people. - [link|http://maxpages.com/southpark2k/Episode_105|Mr. Hat]
New maybe you should suggest an Apple Is Guilty forum
Darrell Spice, Jr.            Trendy yet complex\nPeople seek me out - though they're not sure why\n[link|http://spiceware.org/gallery/ArtisticOverpass|Artistic Overpass]                      [link|http://www.spiceware.org/|SpiceWare]
New And your familarity with the events is what, CRC?


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New Zero[*]. Did I ever say anything else?
I was talking about *how Todd sounds* in the whole thread.

Don't pretend you don't recognize squirming when you see it.

And don't try to claim that isn't *exactly* what Todd is doing.




[*] Edit: Yeah, well, pretty close to zero. I *had*, though, read the linked pages -- and a few that were in turn linked from them -- even before Todd quoted so extensively from them.


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Yes Mr. Garrison, genetic engineering lets us correct God's horrible, horrible mistakes, like German people. - [link|http://maxpages.com/southpark2k/Episode_105|Mr. Hat]
Expand Edited by CRConrad March 15, 2006, 09:55:53 AM EST
     IBM ditching windows - (SpiceWare) - (28)
         :-) - (Steve Lowe)
         Re: IBM ditching windows - (pwhysall)
         More - (Steve Lowe) - (23)
             One piece of speculation there sounds on the money - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                 Servers? - (Steve Lowe) - (1)
                     So, they typically sell them without an OS nowaday. - (folkert)
                 Good point. - (Another Scott)
             His Reflections on Apple seem wrong - (SpiceWare) - (18)
                 I think they're accurate - (ben_tilly) - (17)
                     interesting - thanx -NT - (SpiceWare)
                     Not entirely - (tuberculosis) - (15)
                         They comply with the license. Big whoop. - (ben_tilly) - (14)
                             That's a very old post - (tuberculosis) - (13)
                                 It is under a year old - (ben_tilly) - (12)
                                     Things move fast - (tuberculosis) - (11)
                                         Please clarify - (ben_tilly) - (10)
                                             The post that you cite - (tuberculosis) - (9)
                                                 Sounds like desperate rationalisation on your part. - (CRConrad) - (8)
                                                     No, Apple is plenty flakey in lots of areas - (tuberculosis) - (5)
                                                         So, what is WebKit's User-Agent string again...? - (CRConrad) - (4)
                                                             It doesn't have one - (tuberculosis)
                                                             Re: So, what is WebKit's User-Agent string again...? - (pwhysall) - (2)
                                                                 That would mean I was at least partly wrong - (CRConrad) - (1)
                                                                     maybe you should suggest an Apple Is Guilty forum -NT - (SpiceWare)
                                                     And your familarity with the events is what, CRC? -NT - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                                         Zero[*]. Did I ever say anything else? - (CRConrad)
         Or Not. - (altmann) - (1)
             30,000 desktop "pilot program" according to . . . - (Andrew Grygus)

Deep down facial creases!
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