Post #2,439
7/20/01 10:48:59 AM
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Re: question
take out the magic, miracles, what was Moses' message?
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #2,452
7/20/01 11:35:54 AM
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the law that G_d handed down
here is how I want you to live. 10 commandments 613 laws.
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,471
7/20/01 1:37:42 PM
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Also don't forget
"Let my people go!" :)
The message was that G_d takes care of his people, and he wants them to obey the laws and 10 commandments so that they will be a moral people. If enslaved, G_d will send someone to free them. As in Moses, who freed his people and then went looking for a new place to settle down.
| "I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!" | Moe Howard |
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Post #2,474
7/20/01 2:03:05 PM
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not new but went back home -m
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,491
7/20/01 4:18:30 PM
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Went back home
but wandered for 40 years, right?
| "I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!" | Moe Howard |
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Post #2,504
7/20/01 7:16:04 PM
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Sorry
God speaking to man and dictating or writing laws would fall under the 'miracle' category.
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #2,506
7/20/01 9:15:07 PM
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Amen to that! :)
Alex
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Post #2,520
7/20/01 10:54:06 PM
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kinda sorta this is what I was looking for
what I was looking for was
The beatitudes.
The widow and her mite
The landowner who invited the homeless to the party
the prodical child
kicking the shit out of the moneylenders at the temple (and I always love a solemn sermon on that subject right before the money basket comes around)
knowing he is going to be ratted out by Judas and treating him the best.
Hanging around with IRS workers bar owners and ex hookers while snotting on the snotty
Taking what he needs and sharing with his crew what is offered.
Feeds and feels responsible for those who show up to hear him.
Understands the fears a man will go thru and make allowances for it. (If Peter had not been told that he would chicken out 3 times before dawn would Peters shame have inspired him to such greatness?
My point is if you focus on the message rather than the Pundits later you get a simple man with a simple message to be human as well as a Jew and something I would like to aspire to in my life. He was my definition of a MAN.
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,531
7/21/01 1:15:03 AM
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Good advice for anyone IMO
My point is if you focus on the message rather than the Pundits later you get a simple man with a simple message to be human as well as a Jew and something I would like to aspire to in my life. He was my definition of a MAN
VERY well said :-)
-----
Steve
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Post #2,537
7/21/01 2:15:28 AM
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That's the problem
what I was looking for was
That's what *you* are looking for, in Jesus, to say he was a great man. The problem is, that's not all he said. He also said things like
"Destroy this temple and I will rebuild it in three days"
"Eat my body and drink my blood in my memory"
"I and the Father are one"
and claimed
to forgive sins against God
to have lived before Abraham
to be the one fortold by the prohpets
to be the Messiah and the King of the Jews
You can't just pick and choose amongst what he did for what you like and say "that's how I judge him as a great man" because all you've really shown is what matters to you, not what he was about. This applies to anyone; whether you judge Nixon as a corrupt crook or a great statesman says as much about you and what you value as it does about who Nixon actually was. If you only take a small portion of Jesus teaching and based on those selective parts, you judge him a great man, you've only revealed your own values and actually done him a disservice but not judging him based on *eveything* he said and did.
You look at the things he did and said and you want to admire him for doing and saying those things, but it's not that easy because he also did and said a lot of things that are not things you admire, so you select what you want to pay attention to and brush aside or ignore the rest. It's not that simple
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #2,574
7/21/01 9:32:12 PM
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must have missed something
"Destroy this temple and I will rebuild it in three days" he stated that
could you provide the verse please?
"Eat my body and drink my blood in my memory" definitely not kosher, any chance he knew he was for the highjump and using allegory, not for the first time to have his followers remember/think about him at dinner time? There is a group I sometimes get together with every few years where the first drink is always dedicated to fallen comrades, it is the same thing. (OT)It was passover so why do Christians celebrate with crackers and grape juice every Sunday instead of just at easter (passover)?
"I and the Father are one" nothing new there I and my G_d are one also, he is either referencing the kabbala metaphysics of the Jews, the mormon version of heaven or the bhuddist This is not a new concept, only the mainstream Christians dont have this as part of their religion.
to be the one fortold by the prophets and to be the Messiah and the King of the Jews
well I dont recall him saying that only not denying that. If he was both all he had to do when he visited the temple was to touch the ark and live. He did not or there is no record of that so since all of the prophecies have not come to pass either he was not the messiah or he is doing this in 2 parts as you have suggested earlier. If that is the case we are waiting for the same being so peace brother.
Just in a side note I am in no way questioning your belief or trying to persuede anyone against christianity, just discussing why I cant share that.
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,581
7/22/01 12:59:34 PM
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Some links.
John 2:13-25 - [link|http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=JOHN+2&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=off&showxref=on|[link|http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=JOHN+2|http://bible.gospel...ssage=JOHN+2]&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=off&showxref=on]
It's in the driving out of the moneychangers story you like. :-)
A slightly differently worded version is in Mark 14:57-59 and Matthew 26:60-62.
The trouble with statements like this is that you can't know what was authentic and what was added by later writers to attempt to draw parallels to OT writings, etc.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #2,594
7/22/01 7:44:10 PM
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I see he was foretelling his resurection
and comparing his body with the temple. Comparing the body as the temple of G_d is an old concept. Resurection in 3 days was the new concept. Which incedentally is why a lot of older devout Jews dont like parts removed, they want all their stuff when the bodily resurection takes place. Going around without a liver due to an organ transplant would be inconvenient.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
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