No I believe he rose from the dead

Post #2,295

7/19/01 8:53:13 AM

Doesnt mean he was the Messiah, Moses never died Elijah neither. Samson tore down a building in his old age blind, lottsa cool stuff happens. :)
thanx,
bill

can I have my ones and zeros back?

Post #2,310

by orion

7/19/01 10:56:23 AM

At least you believe that

do you also believe that he healed the sick, raised Lazarus from the dead, turned water into wine, walked on water, etc?

When G_d is involved, lots of cool stuff happens. That is for sure.

If you don't think that Jesus is the Messiah, what do you believe him to be? A Prophet? A Teacher (Rabi, as he was called by some of his followers)? Another person like Moses or Elijah? Jesus claimed to have died for our sins, so they can be forgiven. Do you believe that as well?

"I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!"

Moe Howard

Post #2,322

by boxley

7/19/01 12:31:14 PM

like elijah and moses

Custer died for your sins also :)
thanx,
bill

can I have my ones and zeros back?

Post #2,330

by Fearless Freep

7/19/01 1:43:03 PM

7/19/01 1:48:54 PM

Huh?

Moses never died

Deuteronomy 34:4-6

Then the LORD said to him, "This is the land I promised on oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob when I said, `I will give it to your descendants.' I have let you see it with your eyes, but you will not cross over into it." And Moses the servant of the LORD died there in Moab, as the LORD had said. He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is.

FWIW, Samson was blind, but still young, when he died

Jay O'Connor

"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"

Edited by Fearless Freep July 19, 2001, 01:48:54 PM EDT

Expand All History

Post #2,348

by boxley

7/19/01 2:55:00 PM

my bad I was thinking of Elijah and assumed moses

check yer refs bill.
thanx,
bill

can I have my ones and zeros back?

Post #2,363

by orion

7/19/01 4:35:46 PM

In the NT, Jesus spoke with both of them

I think that somehow they came back to give Jesus advice. Moses and Elijah appeared to speak with Jesus. Anyone got a reference to that?

"I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!"

Moe Howard

Post #2,367

by Fearless Freep

7/19/01 4:51:12 PM

Re: In the NT, Jesus spoke with both of them

Matthew 17
1 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves.
2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.
3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

Mark 9
2 After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them.
3 His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them.
4 And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.

Jay O'Connor

"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"

Post #2,369

by orion

7/19/01 5:04:51 PM

Conference call with Moses and Elijah

Now Moses and Elijah don't just come down and talk to anyone. Jesus has to be very special just to be able to talk to them both.

Thanks for the ref.

"I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!"

Moe Howard

Post #2,399

by static

7/19/01 9:27:30 PM

Uh. Right.

And that takes us back to my C. S. Lewis quote. Jesus claimed to be the Son of God: is He your Lord, a Liar or a Lunatic?

Wade.

"All around me are nothing but fakes
Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"

Post #2,408

by Another Scott

7/19/01 11:24:49 PM

The Brothers Karamazov covers aspects of this too... :-)

Post #2,437

by boxley

7/20/01 10:39:34 AM

question

take out the magic, miracles and accusations by the pharisee's what was the mans message? What did he advocate by his words and actions. Dont forget money changers and the temple.
thanx,
bill

can I have my ones and zeros back?

Post #2,439

by Fearless Freep

7/20/01 10:48:59 AM

Re: question

take out the magic, miracles, what was Moses' message?

Jay O'Connor

"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"

Post #2,452

by boxley

7/20/01 11:35:54 AM

the law that G_d handed down

here is how I want you to live. 10 commandments 613 laws.
thanx,
bill

can I have my ones and zeros back?

Post #2,471

by orion

7/20/01 1:37:42 PM

Also don't forget

"Let my people go!" :)

The message was that G_d takes care of his people, and he wants them to obey the laws and 10 commandments so that they will be a moral people. If enslaved, G_d will send someone to free them. As in Moses, who freed his people and then went looking for a new place to settle down.

"I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!"

Moe Howard

Post #2,474

by boxley

7/20/01 2:03:05 PM

not new but went back home -m

can I have my ones and zeros back?

Post #2,491

by orion

7/20/01 4:18:30 PM

Went back home

but wandered for 40 years, right?

"I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!"

Moe Howard

Post #2,504

by Fearless Freep

7/20/01 7:16:04 PM

Sorry

God speaking to man and dictating or writing laws would fall under the 'miracle' category.

Jay O'Connor

"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"

Post #2,506

by a6l6e6x

7/20/01 9:15:07 PM

Amen to that! :)

Alex

Post #2,520

by boxley

7/20/01 10:54:06 PM

kinda sorta this is what I was looking for

what I was looking for was
The beatitudes.
The widow and her mite
The landowner who invited the homeless to the party
the prodical child
kicking the shit out of the moneylenders at the temple (and I always love a solemn sermon on that subject right before the money basket comes around)
knowing he is going to be ratted out by Judas and treating him the best.
Hanging around with IRS workers bar owners and ex hookers while snotting on the snotty
Taking what he needs and sharing with his crew what is offered.
Feeds and feels responsible for those who show up to hear him.
Understands the fears a man will go thru and make allowances for it. (If Peter had not been told that he would chicken out 3 times before dawn would Peters shame have inspired him to such greatness?
My point is if you focus on the message rather than the Pundits later you get a simple man with a simple message to be human as well as a Jew and something I would like to aspire to in my life. He was my definition of a MAN.
thanx,
bill

can I have my ones and zeros back?

Post #2,531

by Steve Lowe

7/21/01 1:15:03 AM

Good advice for anyone IMO

My point is if you focus on the message rather than the Pundits later you get a simple man with a simple message to be human as well as a Jew and something I would like to aspire to in my life. He was my definition of a MAN

VERY well said :-)

-----
Steve

Post #2,537

by Fearless Freep

7/21/01 2:15:28 AM

That's the problem

what I was looking for was

That's what *you* are looking for, in Jesus, to say he was a great man. The problem is, that's not all he said. He also said things like

"Destroy this temple and I will rebuild it in three days"
"Eat my body and drink my blood in my memory"
"I and the Father are one"

and claimed

to forgive sins against God
to have lived before Abraham
to be the one fortold by the prohpets
to be the Messiah and the King of the Jews

You can't just pick and choose amongst what he did for what you like and say "that's how I judge him as a great man" because all you've really shown is what matters to you, not what he was about. This applies to anyone; whether you judge Nixon as a corrupt crook or a great statesman says as much about you and what you value as it does about who Nixon actually was. If you only take a small portion of Jesus teaching and based on those selective parts, you judge him a great man, you've only revealed your own values and actually done him a disservice but not judging him based on *eveything* he said and did.

You look at the things he did and said and you want to admire him for doing and saying those things, but it's not that easy because he also did and said a lot of things that are not things you admire, so you select what you want to pay attention to and brush aside or ignore the rest. It's not that simple

Jay O'Connor

"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"

Post #2,574

by boxley

7/21/01 9:32:12 PM

must have missed something

"Destroy this temple and I will rebuild it in three days" he stated that
could you provide the verse please?

"Eat my body and drink my blood in my memory" definitely not kosher, any chance he knew he was for the highjump and using allegory, not for the first time to have his followers remember/think about him at dinner time? There is a group I sometimes get together with every few years where the first drink is always dedicated to fallen comrades, it is the same thing. (OT)It was passover so why do Christians celebrate with crackers and grape juice every Sunday instead of just at easter (passover)?

"I and the Father are one" nothing new there I and my G_d are one also, he is either referencing the kabbala metaphysics of the Jews, the mormon version of heaven or the bhuddist This is not a new concept, only the mainstream Christians dont have this as part of their religion.
to be the one fortold by the prophets and to be the Messiah and the King of the Jews
well I dont recall him saying that only not denying that. If he was both all he had to do when he visited the temple was to touch the ark and live. He did not or there is no record of that so since all of the prophecies have not come to pass either he was not the messiah or he is doing this in 2 parts as you have suggested earlier. If that is the case we are waiting for the same being so peace brother.

Just in a side note I am in no way questioning your belief or trying to persuede anyone against christianity, just discussing why I cant share that.
thanx,
bill

can I have my ones and zeros back?

Post #2,581

by Another Scott

7/22/01 12:59:34 PM

Some links.

John 2:13-25 - [link|http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=JOHN+2&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=off&showxref=on|[link|http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=JOHN+2|http://bible.gospel...ssage=JOHN+2]&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=off&showxref=on]

It's in the driving out of the moneychangers story you like. :-)

A slightly differently worded version is in Mark 14:57-59 and Matthew 26:60-62.

The trouble with statements like this is that you can't know what was authentic and what was added by later writers to attempt to draw parallels to OT writings, etc.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #2,594

by boxley

7/22/01 7:44:10 PM

I see he was foretelling his resurection

and comparing his body with the temple. Comparing the body as the temple of G_d is an old concept. Resurection in 3 days was the new concept. Which incedentally is why a lot of older devout Jews dont like parts removed, they want all their stuff when the bodily resurection takes place. Going around without a liver due to an organ transplant would be inconvenient.
thanx,
bill

Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk

Post #2,540

by static

7/21/01 2:34:27 AM

Answer.

take out the magic, miracles and accusations by the pharisee's what was the mans message? What did he advocate by his words and actions. Dont forget money changers and the temple.

Jesus advocated personal repentance and offered divine forgiveness and eternal life in heaven through His sacrifice and resurrection. It is freely available to everyone, but the price for each who accept is that we must acknowledge Him as the highest authority in our lives.

Jesus did not perform magic, and you can put the miracles aside; Jesus Himself said that even given a sign, people will still not believe. You can put the the Pharisees' accusations aside; are part of the basic story, though not His message.

However, you cannot put aside His claim of God: They are central to His message. Either He is God and Messiah, or he was a Liar of the highest calibre, or he was a Lunatic and utterly mad. Just a great moral teacher? That doesn't work.

Wade.

"All around me are nothing but fakes
Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"

Welcome to IWETHEY!