Interesting counterpoint to...

Post #223,182 by bepatient 9/6/05 3:56:10 PM Reply	Interesting counterpoint to... ...the fact that GWB has the most racially and ethnically diverse cabinet in history. Strange about him picking so many if he hates them (oh, sorry, doesn't care for them). If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #223,193 by Ashton 9/6/05 4:19:47 PM Reply	Point missed again: it's the Poor Ones as fly well under his Compassion-Radar; it's a Packard-Bell model, BTW: he got it for a present, in the 8th grade - but never turned it On. (He may be quite egalitarian in his poor eyesight/noticing of actual People below the CIEIO or Contributor classes.) Wanna do a Net Worth on his 'selections'? That should be right up your #alley# (possibly your only alley of perusal that doesn't sport cobwebs from disuse.)
Post #223,227 by jb4 9/6/05 6:35:23 PM 9/6/05 6:36:23 PM Reply	BeeP calculus: one black cabinet member == "GWB has the most racially and ethnically diverse cabinet in history." And if you can have one person that fils two check boxes, all the better. Rather cynical, doncha think? jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT Edited by jb4 Sept. 6, 2005, 06:36:23 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #223,251 by bepatient 9/6/05 8:28:41 PM Reply	Methinks you've lost count. But thats ok. It won't fit your agenda. Lets see now... Interior - Woman Ag - Woman Labor - Chinese Woman Trans - Japanese American HUD - Cuban American State - Black Man followed by Black Woman Education - Black Male Rice - NSA Chief - Black Female (see above DOS) If you are counting as MWBE...he has 14 spots and 8 are filed with qualifiers. 3 of key members...and 20% of his picks were BLACK. Now I suppose they don't count because "they aren't really black?" If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #223,268 by ben_tilly 9/6/05 8:52:47 PM Reply	There is no education cabinet minister You're probably thinking of Alphonso Jackson, HUD secretary. You're right that Condi and Alphonso are black. Colin Powell looks far more white than black to me, it is only in a society as screwed up about race as ours that we'd call him black. Both appointments suggest to me that Bush cares more about personal loyalty than anything else. Which fits with my previous comment about generalizations. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #223,287 by bepatient 9/6/05 10:09:38 PM Reply	No, there's a Dept of Education and Paige was appointed Sec. He is most certainly a black man. Less doubt than you apparently have in your mind thatn Mr Powell, who I'm certain would disagree with your assessment of him as a "nearly white guy". If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #223,324 by ben_tilly 9/7/05 1:23:14 AM Reply	There seems to be a miscommunication or three I thought that you were trying to support [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=223182\|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=223182], which is a claim about Bush's cabinet. Which leaves me puzzled about why you would think that a non-cabinet appointment was relevant. Similarly I wasn't exactly claiming that Colin Powell was almost a white guy. In our society, he clearly is going to run into attitudes that give him a shared experience with many blacks. He is going to encounter lots of racism. In our society, he's a black. However I claim, and stand by the claim, that in a sane society he should be considered white. If you care to disagree, then take a look at his picture in a racially mixed group. Furthermore I claim that this gives him an advantage over other blacks when dealing with people with moderate levels of racism. But our society is not sane. So he's black. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #223,332 by Ashton 9/7/05 2:34:38 AM Reply	Yes, was looking for ~ those words; especially re 'sane'.
Post #223,342 by Andrew Grygus 9/7/05 3:32:34 AM Reply	Ummmmmm . . . . . can you point me to . . . . . an example of a "sane" society? I mean among humans. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #223,391 by bepatient 9/7/05 10:23:30 AM Reply	Ok I misspoke in that prior post.My mistake. Cabinet and Dept level appointments. It is in this area where Bush's record is better than any other in history. But I appear to be discussing this with someone who has their mind made up, so there isn't much point. The state election boards put out lists of "disenfranchised" voters that contained errors. Those errors were predominantly people of color. I'm sure that GWB personally selected those names so he would get elected, since he doesn't care for them. (In case you haven't noticed, none of this changes the identification of the >real< racist that started this discussion.) If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #223,505 by Ashton 9/7/05 5:39:14 PM Reply	Can not let This sleeping-dog er.. Lie: In between fits of uncontrolled snorting .. In these yere parts, I'd deem that the most visibly-non-attached (to present cached jelloware ""data"") in these parts -- that prize would have to go ~ to Ben or A. Scott. Soitenly: not to thee, the Anti-malleable. It would take some counter-""data"" to do this of course, as it appears that both rank things fairly methodically along the line, Dunno-shit----Umm---------Maybe------Hmmm!-----Ah believes - sorta. Till next. You OTOH, persist in a deplenerated form of prissy WDYHASMs, in such nonsequiturs as - I'm sure that GWB personally selected those names so he would get elected, since he doesn't care for them. Going with the notion of 'racist' ~= an irrational visceral despising, within the shrunken brain of a sociopathic-tending carbon unit? -VS- just. not. caring. (selectively or more generalized, maybe unto a whole class?) The first connotes sociopathy. The second connotes, Compassion-disorder. + extreme Bizness-->\ufffd focus. Same thing? They are NOT "equivalent phrases", Mr. ~~Rove~~Apologist. HTH
Post #223,523 by bepatient 9/7/05 6:36:35 PM Reply	Difference? Funny that. Not surprised to see a very large double-standard at play. Not surprised at all. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #223,533 by Ashton 9/7/05 7:05:04 PM Reply	Vying for Mr. Objective Morality #2, here? with marlowe..
Post #223,541 by ben_tilly 9/7/05 7:39:55 PM Reply	Feel free... to stop the ad hominem comments any time you want. I've already demonstrated that my opinion is more nuanced than you expected it to be. Perhaps after a few more rounds you'll realize that it got that way because I'm more open-minded than you're giving me credit for. About your >real< racist comment, you say that as if there is only one real racist. Identify that one, and the rest are obviously not really racists. Unfortunately there is racism enough to go around - on all sides. Now I don't know enough about the person who first accused the President to say whether or not he is a racist. I'm defending the comment, not the speaker. If you have evidence that the person who said that is a racist, feel free to come up with it. You might find me very easily convinced. And finally (out of order I know), we come to the question of the disenfranchised voters. We both know that it is absurd to suggest that GWB personally selected that list. Even were it not absurd, there is enough documentation to clearly disprove that. According to my memory, the list was produced by a company named ChoicePoint by rules drawn up by Jeb Bush's office. Rules drawn up and pushed by his office despite the fact that there were multiple court orders saying that they couldn't do this. George Bush was so upset by this turn of events that he had ChoicePoint draw up the no fly list. You know, the one that had Ted Kennedy's name on it. While there is such a thing as plausible deniability, at some point the denials become implausible. While I can't prove that George personally knows and approves of this policy, I do not believe that this happened without the knowledge and approval of his administration. I further believe that if George were informed of the full details (assuming that he isn't intimately familiar with them already), that he wouldn't exactly object. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #223,543 by boxley 9/7/05 7:48:37 PM Reply	couple of swings at the choice point ball if you please Choice Point is a database design consultancy. They drew up the list under the criteria given to them by Jeb et al. They were asked to create a list of felons, without dob race or social security numbers even though they requested to include those. The list went to elected officials of each county to either use or not to prevent felons from voting because a certain political party who shall remain nameless was signing up voters in the county jails on the east side of the state. Chances were good that some of those incarcerated were felons. Some county officials in the west side of the state gleefully began striking voters as fast as they could. In Miami, they roundfiled the list. Yes shenanigans all around but the company could have been bill and ben conslutants and we could have offshored the work to CRC. Choice point got the product out in time and under budget, shrub seeing the success his brother had with getting what he ordered used the same crew (with appropriate grease no doubt) if Ted Kennedy is a name on the no fly chances are there was a Ted Kennedy visiting the maze prison in eirland in the past 30 years. Once again no DOB was to be provided. Lets keep the blame focused shall we, not on the companies but the companions. thanx. bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #223,552 by Another Scott 9/7/05 8:05:18 PM Reply	Well said.
Post #223,599 by ben_tilly 9/7/05 11:04:30 PM Reply	If you want... I don't know what the Democrats may or may not have done in the east of the state. Regardless of what happened there, the abuse that they were doing is far exceeded by the abuse that the Republicans did. There is no question that ChoicePoint did what they were asked to do by Jeb. However the instructions that they were given were clearly going to produce a list of "felons" that was going to be mostly black, and mostly not felons. Which is indeed what they got. You're right that in the 2004 election, some counties applied the list and some did not. However in the 2000 election, the ones who did not apply the list were a distinct minority. The estimate that I've seen is that if that list had only contained real felons, Gore would have won handily. Heck, if they just eliminated the "felons" on the list for which they didn't have a date of conviction, or had one in the future, Gore would have still won. Of course if they didn't block the felons who were convicted in states that reinstate your right to vote (these people legally can vote in Florida, no matter what local law says about convicted felons), then Gore would have had a much nicer margin still. This group of felons is particularly interesting - 2000 was not the first year that they were barred, and therefore was not the first year that the State of Florida wound up in court about the issue and wound up ordered to allow them to vote. As in previous years (and as happened again in 2004), these court orders were ignored. Of course there were plenty of other election shenanigans that cost even more black votes than the ChoicePoint nonsense, but ChoicePoint is widely publicized so I'm using it as an example. Plus it is a case that is particularly well litigated, the fact that the process continues to be abused at this point cannot possibly be due to ignorance on anyone's part. The system is broken. Is known to be broken. And the people running the system intend for it to stay that way, no matter minor details such as the legality of the matter. Now I'm sure that you have some reason why this illegal purge should be treated as a minor offense. I'd love to hear it. Cheers, Ben PS My personal opinion is that Florida should simplify affairs by joining over 2/3 of the Union and returning the right to vote to a felon once the sentence has been served. But that is just me. PPS If you'll note, I was not blaming ChoicePoint for the mess as much as the Bush family... I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #223,624 by bepatient 9/8/05 1:29:56 AM Reply	You can be open minded. And are. I am not so prone to forgiving Mr West's offense (however cute or comical you may think it was) based on some invented rational, however. Not much point in discussing further, though. You're discussing a completely different subject at this point which really isn't going to change my opinion on Mr. West's actions. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #223,629 by ben_tilly 9/8/05 2:37:15 AM Reply	Let's go back to that comment then, shall we? I just read a [link\|http://www.crooksandliars.com/stories/2005/09/02/kanyeWestAtTheNbcConcertForHurricaneKatrinaRelief.html\|transcript] of his offensive comment. Now I haven't seen much of the TV coverage for obvious reasons. Therefore I don't know whether the media was indeed biasing their comments as West described. However the 10 minutes or so that I watched in the lunch room at work did indeed fit his description. That may be coincidence. I don't know. His comment that they've given them permission to shoot at us was, however, clearly out of line. But the comment that we've been discussing is what he said about George Bush. Whatever we might think about the preceeding rant, I don't think that that was a racist comment. In fact I agree with his sentiments. (Even though I'm not about to stand up on national TV and say it.) Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #223,643 by bepatient 9/8/05 8:48:00 AM Reply	And so all is forigiven. deep breath heavy sigh I guess it all depends on which side your on. and I'm offended by the fact that we still define sides along those lines. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #223,238 by ben_tilly 9/6/05 7:20:56 PM Reply	Go back a couple of posts [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=222917\|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=222917] There I said, It would also be racist to make that comment about an individual whose public record provides ample evidence to the contrary - for instance saying the same thing about Bill Clinton. Or saying that about Bush with "black" replaced by "hispanic". In short I already acknowledged the fact that, while Bush's record on blacks is poor, his record on race is not so easily characterized. Remember, race is more complex than white/non-white. There are plenty of other divisions. When we're talking about Bush, we're talking about a man who has good friends from Saudi Arabia, with a hispanic sister-in-law, who is a master of issuing code phrases that let racists know that he is one of them. Yes, he has a very ethnically diverse cabinet. But we're talking about a man whose past campaign strategies have included disenfranchising blacks and creating a whispering campaign about McCain's colored kid. (Adopted from India, but he was trying to exploit racism against blacks with that one.) In short, his cabinet record does nothing to inspire me to believe that he cares about blacks at all. Particularly not when faced with his overall track record. In fact if you want to convince me that the allegation is false, the best way to go about it is to try to argue that Bush shows so little ability to generalize that it makes no sense to talk about what he thinks about a group of people. This I might be convinced to believe. However his record on blacks is simply so absymal that you aren't going to convince me that he has done OK on this issue. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #223,261 by bepatient 9/6/05 8:41:42 PM Reply	So you think that West... ...thought this through? Or do you simply think it a racist comment that you feel justifiable based on your perception of Bush policies? I don't buy the justification. But hey, let Bab's make a comment about the poor doing ok in Houston and its "see see! I told you day was racist and haters of the poor!" Are we still wondering why I'm disgusted by this? Jesse telling me that the word "refugee" is racist. JESSE JACKSON telling me that a dictionary correct description of the situation is RACIST? And West saying this is "factually correct". boggles the mind. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #223,282 by ben_tilly 9/6/05 9:19:50 PM Reply	I don't think that West thought this through Should I expect him to? If I'm honest then I have to admit that I don't think through most of my comments about other people in detail. The words pop out of my mouth based on impressions that I don't have reams of logical analysis for. However once the words are said, then you can ask whether those particular words were justified. And I happen to believe that they were. That doesn't mean that everything that people have to say on the topic is justified. For instance you attempt to side-track into Jesse Jackson's latest antics. Well go take a look again at [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=222917\|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=222917]. The second paragraph reads: If someone were to say that Jesse Jackson is a hypocrite who always play the race card first, I'd also see that as a factual claim that is probably true. Judging from that, do you think that I'm about to defend the man? Do you think that I'm going to claim that there is no racism in the comments that we're hearing from some quarters? It appears that you're trying to replace my views with some straw man caricature. Like you, I'm also unhappy with lots of people in this situation. My opinions also do not admit of a simple categorization. And I consider honesty to be more important than "sides". Please stop that. I'd particularly appreciate it if you stop acting as if I should support positions that I've made it clear I don't actually support. (Well, perhaps I wouldn't appreciate it that much. After all you'd be taking away a form of entertainment from me.) Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Welcome to IWETHEY!