Post #222,997
9/5/05 9:22:13 PM
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You seem rather naive
You state the problem as the solution. The "haves" have no intention of paying anyone a middle class wage unless forced to. The only way to force that is to have a strong middle class that competes with the "haves".
The "haves" have become so wealthy they now own the government, an additional tool to supress the middle class, and the middle class is becoming too sparse to provide opportunities.
A corporation like Wal-Mart provides huge wealth for a very few, most of whom inherited the money that put them in that position. They provide many very low paying jobs. Corporations like this replaced a prosperous middle class of store owners, distributors, and small manufacturers.
I have clients who supply these monsters, and the monsters are squeezing every last drop of prosperity from these hard working people. The suppliers have no choice in the matter because the middle class store owners are too few to support them now.
The objective of the "haves" and their puppet government is to create El Salvador North, where there is a vast peasant class desperate for any income, almost no middle class, and a very few with obscene wealth (again, mostly inherited, not from productive activity).
And you are more than willing to be deceived by them.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #222,998
9/5/05 9:31:39 PM
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And so...
...we take it all, trust it in the hands of said government that is already owned by these corps...and what do we have?
Yes, I have been deceived by the simple rule of a capitalist society. And forgive me for thinking the conspiricy theory that has Bush battling to keep Bill Gates rich against all odds.
Love that kool-aid.
Y'all win. I've converted to socialism. Better yet. Communism. Mmoffitt...I;m in your corner now. Take everything and split it amongst the proletariat. Lord knows...its been sooo effective.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #222,999
9/5/05 9:50:47 PM
9/5/05 10:57:07 PM
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Against all odds.
Yup, when the Bush administration got in, they quickly allowed Microsoft to pretty much write the terms of punishment for their abusive monopoly conviction, terms under which even Microsoft officals admitted they had more control over the PC industry than they had before their conviction.
And those "simple rules of capitalism" should be stated "simplistic rules of capitalism". They are sufficiently simplistic they cannot work for long without ouside correction. Left alone capitalism results in a very few who control all the capital, a large pool of desparate peasants, and nothing in between. The monarchial system in Europe was pure capitalism.
Capitalism was corrected in Europe by destroying the monarchy. It was corrected in 19th century America by taxes and regulation, and it'll have to be corrected again in the 21st century.
Capitalism is an important segment of our society, but it must be balanced by other segments, just as our government was organized with three branches and two parties all to balance each other. Right now both capitalism and our government are out of balance and in need of corrective action.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #223,015
9/5/05 10:51:15 PM
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Re: Against all odds.
"Right now both capitalism and our government are out of balance and in need of corrective action."
No arguments.
Of course this isn't nearly as dramatic.
Gotta torture Ashton somehow.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #223,000
9/5/05 9:52:39 PM
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And thus you demonstrate, One More Time
Yours is a thoroughly Pedestrian imagination; you can break up any complex problem to some simple black/white homily -- but so can anyone.. there's an infinite suppy simple-assed faux-extreme-Opposites. Random will do, at that level of "thought"/ automatic-contradiction.
(Maybe you should have studied Python more closely; theirs was quite more than two-state 'logic'.)
Pshaw.
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Post #223,002
9/5/05 10:00:49 PM
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*nudge*
Pot. Kettle. Black.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #223,001
9/5/05 9:59:10 PM
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Bah.
Extremes, Bill.
We DO have a government that favors corps more than people.
We DON'T need a government that does the opposite, and destroys business, true. That DOESN'T mean that the former is the way to go.
If the best that economics can come up with are the choices of extremists, then economics has about the same utility as phrenology.
We need to find a way, while recognising that ALL resources are limited. (Except words, and we have a surplus of THEM)
We need to throw away what doesn't work, and find something that does - or is our vaunted American Ingenuity worth SQUAT? I don't believe that.
We need - hell, I don't know. Something fair for everyone? Something that doesn't create a permanent underclass that will bubble with resentment until it erupts?
Whatever it is, I DO feel strongly that it will have to be based on incentives and opportunities as opposed to regulations and limits.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #223,007
9/5/05 10:27:42 PM
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Then we'd have to face inherited Empires
..along with those evident base testosterone urges to create New ones - over other locales.
The aforementioned Wal-Mart and the other dynasties have fueled the machine which protects its operation from All unfunded, unorganized comers. Right on down to ensuring the Votes by buying the vote-generators outright.
And whatever might penetrate that triple razor-wire fence around the dispersed Fort Knoxes -?- looks to be some Creature requiring as much deceit, spin, sub-rosa machinations as Built It.
I don't see extant (yet..) the will, the means, the attention-span == dedication, as it would require to clean these modernized Hardened Augean Stables.
Chaos, OTOH - has a habit of dismantling it All; the moderately-functioning along with the toxic substrate. It's also the easiest 'solution': the one which most lazy mobs tend to wait ... .... ... for.
I see EZ, class=simplistic, as located high on our Motto list, right under,
I've got Mine; Fuck you, Jack!
(I shall be pleased-as-punch, like HHH - to have this estimate Wrong.)
Better.. if, while I'm still alive - but I'll give ya a 50 yr. raincheck; and still sell short, from the material I espy running things. Even at intermediate levels.
Maybe Lloyds of London could hold any bets - I wouldn't want to 'bet' on \ufffdtna - who knows what 50yr scam they are already well-into, via various cross-pollinated 'Boards'?
(Those boards which, Beep sez: pay those 300:1 cost-effective salaries to the CIEIOs. Add-to-list the rulez about multiple-board-enhancement? Naahhhh.)
Optimistically, though -
I.
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Post #223,012
9/5/05 10:41:05 PM
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perhaps a few ideas
Companies that force working tax payers into government assistance plans that are supported by the individuals who pay taxes because their wages are too low. Should the CEO of GE have to pay extra because the CEO of Walmart has designed a staffing plan that pays so little employees have no health care and are eligable for food stamps?
Now what we have here is a classic need for a worker based insurgency that will have thugs toting shotguns shooting down people manning picket lines. The will to do so has not yet tipped to the underclass, but you can only kick a dog so many times before they retaliate. Now do you want the government to regulate decent wages/benefits via taxation policies or do you want the mob and whoever is left after the mayhem dictating policies. We have done it both ways in this country many times, its about to recycle again unless someone in a leadership capacity steps in.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #223,020
9/5/05 11:18:15 PM
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<Sigh> (new thread)
Created as new thread #223019 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=223019|]
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Post #223,024
9/6/05 12:14:57 AM
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Zope mucked the new addy in Econ - gotta alter header.
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