Post #2,224
7/18/01 1:57:07 PM
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sorry I was to terse in prior post
that was to explain why Jews dont sacrifice animals ( because they dont have a temple)as well as a secular history. The otherr comments wre my own. Example the lubavitchers thought one of their own was the messiach just 2 years ago. They waited for him to proclaim but he did not, and he passed away and stayed dead. Every generation of Jews has a messiah wannabe not of his own choosing but followers who beleive in his teachings.
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,247
7/18/01 4:40:07 PM
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How will you know a true messiah?
G_d did promise one, if you don't think that the true messiah arrived yet, how can you be sure that the real one is the real one and not another pretender?
For example, I can gather up a crowd of homeless people and out of 100 find at least 1 that claims to be G_d or some other religious figure. They might even do a good enough job to fool some people. We are told that there will be many false prohpets or false messiahs. How can we then tell the real deals?
Jesus really didn't say in his trials that he was or wasn't, he wanted us to believe it ourselves by faith. It was always like "it is you who say that" or some other verbal judo like "those are you words, not mine" or something like that. In the Christian religion we have a trinity, G_d has three parts. The first being the Father, who is in Heaven. The second being the Holy Spirit, usually rays of light or fire, that come down and bless us, also known as the Holy Ghost. The third being the son, made human and walked with us, became one of us, but was still divine. St. Patrick taught that G_d was like a clover, had three leafs but was one. G_d is able to take three forms, well actually he took on other forms like a burning bush once, but anyway G_d can change his appearance. Most people picture G_d the father as a very strong old man with a white beard and white hair that sits on a throne in Heaven. He is the original form of G_d that only a few have really seen.
| "I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!" | Moe Howard |
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Post #6,421
8/23/01 6:50:23 AM
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Re: How will you know a true messiah?
Very simple. The Bible tells us what the Messiah will do. If we read the clearly Messianic prophesies we see that the prophesies focus on 2 points: 1) World Peace (Because the focus of the OT is primarily on the Jews and on Israel, this idea is often expressed by describing the future peaceful conditions in Israel) 2) Recognition of God. Another subset of the prophesies focus on the Messiah himself(in both of the above contexts). Here is 1 of the prophesies:
Ezekiel 37
24 "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow my ordinances and be careful to observe my statutes.
25 They shall dwell in the land where your fathers dwelt that I gave to my servant Jacob; they and their children and their children's children shall dwell there for ever; and David my servant shall be their prince for ever.
26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will bless them and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Note how in verse 24 it says that even in the Messianic era that they will follow the law.
Another Messianic prophesy is the famous quote "they shall beat their swords into plowshares", meaning there will be world peace. No one can say by any stretch of the imagination that these prophesies have come true. When these come true we will know that person is the true Messiah.
I would like to add another point about miracles and the Messiah. The OT doesn't say, anywhere that the Messiah will do miracles nor does it say anywhere that we will know someone is the Messiah because he did miracles. Why not? The answer is very simple. We know from the Bible how insignificant miracles are. When Moses went to Egypt, the magicians of Pharaoh were able to duplicate at least three of the ten miraculous plagues. When Aaron changed his staff into a snake, the Egyptians did so as well. Elisha the Prophet brought people back from the dead, was he the Messiah? Elijah brought down fire from heaven was he the Messiah? Daniel was thrown in the lion's pit and survived was he the Messiah? One does not even have to be a legitimate person to be able to perform miracles. Certainly, one need not be the Messiah to perform miracles. In fact, God himself specifically says
Deuteronomy 13
1 "If a prophet arises among you, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or a wonder,
2 and the sign or wonder which he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, 'Let us go after other gods,' which you have not known, and let us serve them,'
3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
God specifically says that there will arise false prophets who WILL do miracles, yet, God says don't follow them.
The bottom line is, that the Messiah has nothing to do with miracles, the Messiah will be the descendent of David who brings World Peace and Knowledge of God, as that has not happened the Messiah has not come.
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Post #2,251
7/18/01 4:50:10 PM
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Re: sorry I was to terse in prior post
Example the lubavitchers thought one of their own was the messiach just 2 years ago. They waited for him to proclaim but he did not, and he passed away and stayed dead. Every generation of Jews has a messiah wannabe not of his own choosing but followers who beleive in his teachings
I thought, half tongue-in-cheek, that a great "Messiah test" would be to simply execute everyone claiming to be the Messiah. Those that stay dead...were wrong. May cut down on the number of false claiments
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #2,256
7/18/01 5:21:22 PM
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When you are skeptical of anyone
claiming to be a messiah, any possible messiah appears to be false. Even a true one would appear to be false. How can you tell?
I keep thinking of "Life of Brian" where they illustrated how easily fooled people could be into thinking a false messiah is real. I am talking about Brian, in that story, being worshiped by people who mistook him for the real deal.
But I believe that Jesus is the real deal. Just that not everyone is keen on that idea. Jesus seems to make sense to me as a messiah. I believe that he will show up once again to set things right.
| "I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!" | Moe Howard |
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Post #2,258
7/18/01 5:26:20 PM
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"The Dwarves are for the Dwarves"
When you are skeptical of anyone claiming to be a messiah, any possible messiah appears to be false. Even a true one would appear to be false. How can you tell?
Read C.S.Lewis' The Last Battle about people being so afraid of being taken in by a false prohet that they miss the real thing
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #2,271
7/18/01 9:43:29 PM
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easy stuff
he must have a great knowledge of torah
he must/may preform miracles
he will arrive after the temple is rebuilt (gotta have a place for sacrifices)
the most important one is that he will lead us the Jews part one
and never contradict by action or word any of the 613 laws of G_d or cause us as a people great harm part 2.
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,281
7/18/01 11:12:08 PM
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So um.... :)
Jesus fulfilled several of those and said "I'll get back to you on that" for the rest :)
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #2,294
7/19/01 8:50:51 AM
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need all of them and be decended from David
on his moms side. Hafta check with BLuke but I think he needs to be a Cohen.
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,329
7/19/01 1:37:18 PM
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Re: need all of them and be decended from David
and be decended from David on his mom's side
He was. Luke's geneology account is Mary's geneology. Joseph was Heli's son-in-law, the distinction of which gets lost in the translation
need all of them
If your boss comes and says "The consultant is going to fix our database and tune the kernal" and he comes and fixes the database and says "I'll be back later to tune the kernal compile" does that mean he was not the consultant because he did not fulfill the contract, or just that he hasn't fulfilled it all yet?
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #2,346
7/19/01 2:48:57 PM
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no problemo
if he shows back up to do the rest I can ask what the fsck Paul thought he was doing. Will be very happy to go to temple etc.
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,362
7/19/01 4:32:40 PM
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Jesus is supposed to come back
he did what he came out to do, die for our sins, and then left his people in charge. He will return one day, and only G_d knows what day that will be.
Paul is not Jesus, but he tried to run the church for Jesus. Just like the man who runs your Synagogue is not Moses. We have to deal with representatives when the real one is not there. In the Catholic faith, we have the Pope, for example to represent Jesus. Keep in mind that the representative is not the same as the real thing, and like any other human being, the representative can sin like the rest of us and/or make mistakes. They are just the ones that got left in charge.
| "I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!" | Moe Howard |
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Post #2,426
7/20/01 8:49:57 AM
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If you look at every religion
Lets look at the Mormons, they had a prophet wh started it, then after he dies an accountant type moves in, changes some fundamental rules and starts a cult of personality. The Mormon church of today is not identical with the founded church.
Muslim religion was started by Mohammed, he died and there was a battle on who was going to rule. You have heard of those laws where women in Arabia must wear total coverings in public? that is not in their teachings it came later after some early ayatola highjacked the church. Communism was great in the beginnig then was hijacked by stalin. Every major religion started out pure and then was hijacked by an accounting type who saw that all this thing needed was a little rule change here and there and people to worship him.
That is my point about Paul. Nothing Jesus said or did was that shocking, earlier prophets said the same or worse. Paul dramatically changed the whole thing for the worse IMHO
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,436
7/20/01 10:38:14 AM
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Sorry but...
Nothing Jesus said or did was that shocking, earlier prophets said the same or worse. Paul dramatically changed the whole thing for the worse IMHO
I guess this is where the conversation ends because you've pretty much ignored everything I've posted contrary of this statement. The discussion has been cordial, but ultimately useless, as you've pretty much been saying the same thing over and over without bothering to address the points in opposition to your claims
but I guess it was fun for awhile
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #2,469
7/20/01 1:33:17 PM
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Everyone is entitled to their own opinions
BOxley has decided that in his opinion, Paul messed things up. It doesn't seem like anything posted here will change that opinion.
I support his right to his opinion even if I do not agree with that opinion. Sure Paul did what he thought was best and he wasn't Jesus, but Jesus had the faith in Paul to do the right thing, and that to me is what counts. It doesn't matter to me if Paul was Jewish or not, Paul was apparently the one that Jesus had chosen to be the witness and spread the word. It seems to me, in my humble opinion, that Paul/Saul was born Jewish, was raised up in Rome and exposed to Roman (gentile) teachings, then saw Jesus and had his life turned around and became as a Jew again, but knew that he had to teach to Jews and Gentiles, the teachings of Jesus. After all, Jesus did heal more than just Jewish people on his travels.
Just my two cents.
| "I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!" | Moe Howard |
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Post #2,468
7/20/01 1:26:38 PM
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This is the way it is in the world
be it religion, a business, government, whathaveyou. The US Federal Government isn't the same one as the founding fathers started. Others took over for them, and admended the laws and changed the way things got done. For example, Honest Abe fixed the problem with owning slaves that our founding fathers could not fix. (Or would not, as many of them owned slaves themselves despite speaking against slavery) But in any case, I see your point. Paul is not Jesus, nowhere close. Paul made things the way he thought they should be, and ran them the way we chose to run them. While talking to Jews, he acted as if he was a Jew, while talking to gentiles he acted as if he was a gentile. Salespeople do this every day, they try to mimmick the bodylanguage of the person they are talking to, and try to act like them. When a politician goes to Texas, does he/she wear a "I Love NY" shirt and a NY Mets Baseball cap and start off speeches with "Redneck" jokes? Or does that politician wear a cowboy hat and boots and start off a speech about Texas pride? Paul originally spoke against Jesus, until Jesus came down and said to Paul who he was and what Paul was doing to him. Or rather as Saul this happened, and he used his Greek name Paul later on. [link|http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/03-04/paul.htm|[link|http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/03-04/paul.htm|http://www.jewsforj...-04/paul.htm]]
About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, 'Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me? "'Who are you, Lord?' I asked. "'I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting,' he replied" (Acts 22:6-8).
Then in Damascus, a fellow Jew named Ananias informed Saul of the work God had in store for him: "You will be his witness to all men of what you have seen and heard" (Acts 22:15). Therefore, Saul, also known by his Greek name, Paul, spent the greater part of the remaining three decades of his life in foreign nations where he taught the Greek--speaking Gentiles about the "Christ"--the "Messiah."
It looks like Jesus turned an enemy into an ally. Paul became a witness to all men. | "I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!" | Moe Howard |
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Post #6,423
8/23/01 6:57:40 AM
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Re: need all of them and be decended from David
One of the fundamental points about the Messiah is that he must be descended from the House of David, and not only from the House of David, but a certain branch of the House of David. This presents great problems for Jesus being the the Messiah as we will see.
Christians believe that Jesus was born of a virgin birth, he had no father. As we all know lineage is paternal we see this clearly in Number 1:2
"Take a census of all the congregation of the people of Israel, by families, by fathers' houses, according to the number of names, every male, head by head" (see also Number 1:18).
Therefore it is hard to see how Jesus could be from the House of David as he has no father. Christians answer that his lineage is through Joseph. Even if somehow we accepted that lineage could travel through
a NON-BIOLIGICAL parent, it wouldn't help as the purported lineage of Joseph is not from the right(Messianic) branch of King David. In Matthew, Joseph's lineage is presented as going through Jeconiah. However Jeremiah clearly states that Jeconiah was cursed and none of his descendents would asend to the throne:
Jeremiah 22:24,28-30
24."Surely as I live," says *GOD*, "You, Jeconiah, the son of Jehoiakim, king of Judah, even if you were a signet ring upon my right hand, I would cast you off!"
28.Is this man Jeconiah a broken, abominable idol, an object for which no one cares?...
30.Write this man off as if childless, a man who shall not prosper in his days, because no one descended from him shall find success in sitting in the Kingship of David or ruling any more in Judah.
The curse effectively removes Joseph, a direct descendant of Jeconiah, from ever being a claimant to the royal throne. Jesus couldn't possibly inherit the throne from him, even if we ascribe Joseph's lineage to Jesus.
Even more interesting, is that Luke gives a different genealogy where Joseph is descended from Heli. Some Christians try to answer by saying that Luke is describing Mary's lineage. However, there is no support for the notion that it is Mary's line. Besides, it is irrelevant, because lineage is paternal. Luke's genealogy presents a different problem as well, as the lineage goes from David to Nathan (not Solomon). However the Bible clearly states that the Messiah would descend from Solomon:
1 Chron 22:9-10
9.Behold, a son shall be born to you, who shall be a man of peace, for I will give him peace from all his enemies, for his name shall be Solomon...
10.He shall build the HOUSE for my name, and he shall be my son, and I will be his father, and I WILL establish the throne of HIS kingdom over Israel FOREVER.
Again this lineage (not through Solomon)effectively removes Joseph, from ever being a claimant to the royal throne as God states that he established Solomon and his descendents on the throne forever. Therefore, Jesus couldn't possibly inherit the throne from Joseph, even if we ascribe Joseph's lineage to Jesus.
To sum up, we have the following problems with Jesus being the Messiah:
1) If Jesus had no father(virgin birth) then he is not from the House of David
2) Even if we allow Jesus to use the lineage of Joseph (his non-bioligical father) the lineage in Matthew goes through the cursed branch of Jeconiah and therefore cannot be the Messiah and the lineage in Luke is not through Solomon.
3) The lineages in the NT conflict
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Post #6,482
8/23/01 1:35:12 PM
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Re: need all of them and be decended from David
1) If Jesus had no father(virgin birth) then he is not from the House of David
He's still of the House of David by blood through Mary. Geneology is traced throught the father, but you can still be of a given house through the mother (as illustrated by the fact that the Jews currently trace lineage through the mother due to the holocaust making lineage very difficult to trace, especially throug fathers)
Also, by being the adpoted son of Joseph, he gets the legal rights as well. He avoids the curse of Jeconiah by not beeing of his seed, but still gets the legal lineage to David through Jeseph and the blood relation to David through Mary
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #6,711
8/26/01 3:18:16 AM
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With all due respect...
These are at best poor answers. Let us examine them.
You wrote: " Geneology is traced throught the father, but you can still be of a given house through the mother (as illustrated by the fact that the Jews currently trace lineage through the mother due to the holocaust making lineage very difficult to trace, especially throug fathers)"
It is a yes or no question, if genealogoy is traced through the father then the mother is out. The OT clearly states that genealogy is based solely on the father.The point about Jews tracing lineage through the mother is incorrect. For someone to be Jewish their mother needs to be Jewish. However, their lineage is through the father only. This is not recent due to the Holocaust, this is the way Judaism has always been (this is recorded in the Talmud). Why this split is a different question it is based on the oral law, however it has no bearing on the discussion here because Christianity denies the oral law and goes soley with the OT (if you really want to know look in the talmud at the end of kiddushin). The fact is, from the OT alone, all you see if that lineage is paternal.
You wrote: "Also, by being the adpoted son of Joseph, he gets the legal rights as well. He avoids the curse of Jeconiah by not beeing of his seed, but still gets the legal lineage to David through Jeseph and the blood relation to David through Mary"
Unfortunately, if you think about it, this makes absolutely no sense. Even ignoring the obvious problem that lineage is only paternal, neither genealogy is fit for the Messiah (Joseph's because of the curse and Mary's because it is not from Solomon) Therefore 0 + 0 = 0. How does it help that Mary's line avoids the curse, Mary's line still can't be the Messiah because it is not descended from Solomon. What you propose to do, take the 1 point that you want from Joseph, namely descended from Solomon and throw away the rest, and take the 1 point from Mary that Nathan was not cursed and throw away the rest is laughable, the bottom line is that Joseph was descended from Jeconiah who was cursed and Mary was not descended from Solomon making neither of them nor their descendents fit to be the Messiah.
I am absolutely amazed. This is not a side issue, this relates to the basis of Christianity, yet, no one can give a clear and reasonable answer how it is even possible for Jesus to be the Messiah based on the lineage given in the NT.
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Post #6,754
8/27/01 1:25:05 AM
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Nonsense.
I am absolutely amazed. This is not a side issue, this relates to the basis of Christianity, yet, no one can give a clear and reasonable answer how it is even possible for Jesus to be the Messiah based on the lineage given in the NT.
No one?
I beg to differ.
"The whole bible was cooked up by drunken students who wanted to be poets/playwrights.".
Clear, Reasonable, and is a perfect fit from what we know of history and the world.
Addison
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Post #6,424
8/23/01 7:02:40 AM
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What is the basis for the Second Coming?
The clearly Messianic prophesies all state that the Messiah will bring world peace and restore the Jews to the land with the Messiah as King. THIS HAS NOT HAPPENED YET.
The standard Christian answer is that there will be a Second Coming. There are a number of very serious problems with this:
1) What is the source for this in the OT, none of the Messianic prophesies mention 2 comings. All of the Messianic prophecies have a first coming perspective. None of the verses indicate that the Messiah has been around before.
2) A second coming theory gives no credibility to the first coming. Using this theory, we could make practically anyone in history into the Messiah(i.e. Bar Kochva). Even if our random candidate accomplished nothing, we can claim that he will meet success in his second coming.
2) Jesus himself in the NT said he would return in the lifetimes of his disciples, he didn't. Here are some quotes:
Mark 9:1 "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death at all until they see the kingdom of God having come [that is, after it has come] with power."
Well those people are all long dead and Jesus hasn't returned yet.
Matthew 10:23
"But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for truly I say to you, you shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes"
From this verse we see that Matthew's Jesus promised to return before the apostles visited all the cities of Israel. It didn't happen.
The bottom line is, the Messiah will be the descendent of David who brings World Peace and Knowledge of God, as that has not happened the Messiah has not come.
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Post #2,272
7/18/01 9:45:37 PM
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thats not the problem
its all the followers who claim a guy is the messiah but he doesnt aknowledge with a yes or no. (sound familiar?) and he either dies of old age or someone in authority has him killed, and he doesnt arise.
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,286
7/19/01 1:51:09 AM
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Ah.
I suspected we were heading this way. :-)
Did Jesus rise from the dead? I say He did. Others here will, too. I can tell you will say not. Evidence one way or the other has fuelled arguments for centuries - millenia, even. Do we go down that path?
Wade.
"All around me are nothing but fakes
Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
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Post #2,295
7/19/01 8:53:13 AM
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No I believe he rose from the dead
Doesnt mean he was the Messiah, Moses never died Elijah neither. Samson tore down a building in his old age blind, lottsa cool stuff happens. :)
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,310
7/19/01 10:56:23 AM
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At least you believe that
do you also believe that he healed the sick, raised Lazarus from the dead, turned water into wine, walked on water, etc?
When G_d is involved, lots of cool stuff happens. That is for sure.
If you don't think that Jesus is the Messiah, what do you believe him to be? A Prophet? A Teacher (Rabi, as he was called by some of his followers)? Another person like Moses or Elijah? Jesus claimed to have died for our sins, so they can be forgiven. Do you believe that as well?
| "I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!" | Moe Howard |
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Post #2,322
7/19/01 12:31:14 PM
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like elijah and moses
Custer died for your sins also :)
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,330
7/19/01 1:43:03 PM
7/19/01 1:48:54 PM
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Huh?
Moses never died
Deuteronomy 34:4-6
Then the LORD said to him, "This is the land I promised on oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob when I said, `I will give it to your descendants.' I have let you see it with your eyes, but you will not cross over into it." And Moses the servant of the LORD died there in Moab, as the LORD had said. He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is.
FWIW, Samson was blind, but still young, when he died
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #2,348
7/19/01 2:55:00 PM
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my bad I was thinking of Elijah and assumed moses
check yer refs bill.
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,363
7/19/01 4:35:46 PM
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In the NT, Jesus spoke with both of them
I think that somehow they came back to give Jesus advice. Moses and Elijah appeared to speak with Jesus. Anyone got a reference to that?
| "I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!" | Moe Howard |
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Post #2,367
7/19/01 4:51:12 PM
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Re: In the NT, Jesus spoke with both of them
Matthew 17
1 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves.
2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.
3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
Mark 9
2 After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them.
3 His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them.
4 And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #2,369
7/19/01 5:04:51 PM
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Conference call with Moses and Elijah
Now Moses and Elijah don't just come down and talk to anyone. Jesus has to be very special just to be able to talk to them both.
Thanks for the ref.
| "I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!" | Moe Howard |
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Post #2,399
7/19/01 9:27:30 PM
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Uh. Right.
And that takes us back to my C. S. Lewis quote. Jesus claimed to be the Son of God: is He your Lord, a Liar or a Lunatic?
Wade.
"All around me are nothing but fakes
Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
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Post #2,408
7/19/01 11:24:49 PM
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The Brothers Karamazov covers aspects of this too... :-)
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Post #2,437
7/20/01 10:39:34 AM
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question
take out the magic, miracles and accusations by the pharisee's what was the mans message? What did he advocate by his words and actions. Dont forget money changers and the temple.
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,439
7/20/01 10:48:59 AM
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Re: question
take out the magic, miracles, what was Moses' message?
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #2,452
7/20/01 11:35:54 AM
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the law that G_d handed down
here is how I want you to live. 10 commandments 613 laws.
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,471
7/20/01 1:37:42 PM
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Also don't forget
"Let my people go!" :)
The message was that G_d takes care of his people, and he wants them to obey the laws and 10 commandments so that they will be a moral people. If enslaved, G_d will send someone to free them. As in Moses, who freed his people and then went looking for a new place to settle down.
| "I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!" | Moe Howard |
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Post #2,474
7/20/01 2:03:05 PM
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not new but went back home -m
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,491
7/20/01 4:18:30 PM
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Went back home
but wandered for 40 years, right?
| "I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!" | Moe Howard |
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Post #2,504
7/20/01 7:16:04 PM
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Sorry
God speaking to man and dictating or writing laws would fall under the 'miracle' category.
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #2,506
7/20/01 9:15:07 PM
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Amen to that! :)
Alex
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Post #2,520
7/20/01 10:54:06 PM
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kinda sorta this is what I was looking for
what I was looking for was
The beatitudes.
The widow and her mite
The landowner who invited the homeless to the party
the prodical child
kicking the shit out of the moneylenders at the temple (and I always love a solemn sermon on that subject right before the money basket comes around)
knowing he is going to be ratted out by Judas and treating him the best.
Hanging around with IRS workers bar owners and ex hookers while snotting on the snotty
Taking what he needs and sharing with his crew what is offered.
Feeds and feels responsible for those who show up to hear him.
Understands the fears a man will go thru and make allowances for it. (If Peter had not been told that he would chicken out 3 times before dawn would Peters shame have inspired him to such greatness?
My point is if you focus on the message rather than the Pundits later you get a simple man with a simple message to be human as well as a Jew and something I would like to aspire to in my life. He was my definition of a MAN.
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,531
7/21/01 1:15:03 AM
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Good advice for anyone IMO
My point is if you focus on the message rather than the Pundits later you get a simple man with a simple message to be human as well as a Jew and something I would like to aspire to in my life. He was my definition of a MAN
VERY well said :-)
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Steve
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Post #2,537
7/21/01 2:15:28 AM
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That's the problem
what I was looking for was
That's what *you* are looking for, in Jesus, to say he was a great man. The problem is, that's not all he said. He also said things like
"Destroy this temple and I will rebuild it in three days"
"Eat my body and drink my blood in my memory"
"I and the Father are one"
and claimed
to forgive sins against God
to have lived before Abraham
to be the one fortold by the prohpets
to be the Messiah and the King of the Jews
You can't just pick and choose amongst what he did for what you like and say "that's how I judge him as a great man" because all you've really shown is what matters to you, not what he was about. This applies to anyone; whether you judge Nixon as a corrupt crook or a great statesman says as much about you and what you value as it does about who Nixon actually was. If you only take a small portion of Jesus teaching and based on those selective parts, you judge him a great man, you've only revealed your own values and actually done him a disservice but not judging him based on *eveything* he said and did.
You look at the things he did and said and you want to admire him for doing and saying those things, but it's not that easy because he also did and said a lot of things that are not things you admire, so you select what you want to pay attention to and brush aside or ignore the rest. It's not that simple
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #2,574
7/21/01 9:32:12 PM
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must have missed something
"Destroy this temple and I will rebuild it in three days" he stated that
could you provide the verse please?
"Eat my body and drink my blood in my memory" definitely not kosher, any chance he knew he was for the highjump and using allegory, not for the first time to have his followers remember/think about him at dinner time? There is a group I sometimes get together with every few years where the first drink is always dedicated to fallen comrades, it is the same thing. (OT)It was passover so why do Christians celebrate with crackers and grape juice every Sunday instead of just at easter (passover)?
"I and the Father are one" nothing new there I and my G_d are one also, he is either referencing the kabbala metaphysics of the Jews, the mormon version of heaven or the bhuddist This is not a new concept, only the mainstream Christians dont have this as part of their religion.
to be the one fortold by the prophets and to be the Messiah and the King of the Jews
well I dont recall him saying that only not denying that. If he was both all he had to do when he visited the temple was to touch the ark and live. He did not or there is no record of that so since all of the prophecies have not come to pass either he was not the messiah or he is doing this in 2 parts as you have suggested earlier. If that is the case we are waiting for the same being so peace brother.
Just in a side note I am in no way questioning your belief or trying to persuede anyone against christianity, just discussing why I cant share that.
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,581
7/22/01 12:59:34 PM
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Some links.
John 2:13-25 - [link|http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=JOHN+2&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=off&showxref=on|[link|http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=JOHN+2|http://bible.gospel...ssage=JOHN+2]&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=off&showxref=on]
It's in the driving out of the moneychangers story you like. :-)
A slightly differently worded version is in Mark 14:57-59 and Matthew 26:60-62.
The trouble with statements like this is that you can't know what was authentic and what was added by later writers to attempt to draw parallels to OT writings, etc.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #2,594
7/22/01 7:44:10 PM
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I see he was foretelling his resurection
and comparing his body with the temple. Comparing the body as the temple of G_d is an old concept. Resurection in 3 days was the new concept. Which incedentally is why a lot of older devout Jews dont like parts removed, they want all their stuff when the bodily resurection takes place. Going around without a liver due to an organ transplant would be inconvenient.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
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Post #2,540
7/21/01 2:34:27 AM
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Answer.
take out the magic, miracles and accusations by the pharisee's what was the mans message? What did he advocate by his words and actions. Dont forget money changers and the temple. Jesus advocated personal repentance and offered divine forgiveness and eternal life in heaven through His sacrifice and resurrection. It is freely available to everyone, but the price for each who accept is that we must acknowledge Him as the highest authority in our lives. Jesus did not perform magic, and you can put the miracles aside; Jesus Himself said that even given a sign, people will still not believe. You can put the the Pharisees' accusations aside; are part of the basic story, though not His message. However, you cannot put aside His claim of God: They are central to His message. Either He is God and Messiah, or he was a Liar of the highest calibre, or he was a Lunatic and utterly mad. Just a great moral teacher? That doesn't work. Wade. "All around me are nothing but fakes
Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
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