Post #200,352
3/24/05 4:30:18 PM
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How old are your kids?
As they get older, they get more creative in their methods to hide information. Reading articles, his aunt (iirc) saw him in that morning, talked to him, seemed "normal". Most parents won't know where/how to look on the internet to find their kid's blogs. I wouldn't know where to look/how to find any of my daughters' blogs. If they had any.
I've had different people (their peers) tell me various things about my daughters (smoking, pot, sex, truancy). I've confronted them. They deny. Without proof, can't really do anything but keep eyes open and watch. You learn to read what they're saying by what is missing.
This kid had lived in the cities. Dad committed suicide. Mom was paralyzed. He was sent to live on reservation with relatives. Big town kid living in a small town with "nothing to do". Hadn't lived there long enough for the adults to get to know him. And his relatives? Who knows. If you suddenly acquired a 15 y/o living in with you, how long would it take before you'd recognize "questionable behaviour"? Especially if it was being actively hidden?
He was getting help, was on anti-depressants, was in therapy. But something "happened" and he went wild.
It's getting too common.
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
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Post #200,354
3/24/05 4:35:30 PM
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You said it
It's getting too common. And that there, is the bottom line. It's starting to be like an everyday occurrence, like something that has to just be... and that's the saddest part, that we've delegated school shootings in our society to equate with a fact of life, like it's a fact of life that murders happen, robberies happen, now it's a fact of life that teenagers or even younger kids, may regularly attempt to shoot one another at school. I just wish something could be done to "find" these kids and help them before it's too late, but of course there is no tried and true method other than getting them to talk to you, and not all of them will talk, either, even if you try. Brenda
"The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr
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Post #200,357
3/24/05 4:45:41 PM
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There's a much simpler solution
Make sure it's very hard if not impossible for them to get guns.
Oh yeah, that's not an option in your neck of the woods.
A while back andread was poking fun at Peter, citing someone who attacked and killed someone else with an axe in the UK. He just snapped, and started chopping this guy up. Various people saw him, told him to stop, and he ignored them while he set about decapitating his victim. However, here's the flip side: let's say he'd had a semiautomatic assault rifle with a full clip (IIRC, 40 rounds or so). Well, he could have shot the guy three or four times in as many seconds. At that point, he's free to turn said weapon on someone else. Even assuming he's a crappy shot, he's easily able to kill eight people and trash their bodies in the time it took him to take care of one. THAT is the point of having effective gun control.
How many people would this kid have killed if all he'd been able to lay his hands on was a knife or an axe or some such?
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #200,360
3/24/05 5:00:10 PM
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Re: There's a much simpler solution
Make sure it's very hard if not impossible for them to get guns. Oh yeah, that's not an option in your neck of the woods. Not yet, anyway. They are working on a smart gun that will respond only to the owner, but it isn't available yet. I don't agree with the right to carry though, it isn't something I advocate because it can't be monitored very well. I agree though, that is one of the keys. Problem we have here, is we don't know how he overpowered his grandad and got the gun, Did he shoot him before overpowering him, or shoot him after he knocked him out and stole the gun cabinet key... provided the gun was locked up. We may never know that. If people are determined to get their hands on a gun, they usually manage to find a way, sadly enough. Brenda
"The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr
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Post #200,363
3/24/05 5:10:21 PM
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Good lord
It doesn't matter how he overpowered his grandfather. If there'd been no guns there in the first place, he'd have been severely restricted in the amount of damage he could do.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #200,364
3/24/05 5:14:15 PM
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How could that have been accomplished
When his grandfather was a policeman? Where else would he keep his gun?
I'm a little confused, I mean I get it if it's an ordinary citizen, but police are supposed to have guns, right?
Brenda
"The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr
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Post #200,370
3/24/05 5:31:45 PM
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Police are supposed to have guns
when they're working.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #200,373
3/24/05 5:34:10 PM
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So tell me...
Where do they put them then, when off duty? Usually locked up at home. I never heard of a station allowing you to lock up your weapon as you leave.
Brenda
"The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr
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Post #200,378
3/24/05 5:52:12 PM
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Yeah, but you live in the US
it really is different there from almost anywhere else... up here, if a cop is carrying off duty, they can get arrested.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #200,381
3/24/05 6:02:49 PM
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Does carrying including storing?
Are you saying where you are they are allowed to leave the guns at work?
Not a bad idea, but unfortunately then off duty police here would be vulnerable to people gunning for them.
But I agree, we need a better solution.
Brenda
"The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr
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Post #200,383
3/24/05 6:13:20 PM
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Not a lot of people gunning
in a culture that isn't awash in firearms, like mine.
If you have a gun, you have to have a license. You also have to store them in a safe in your house, and carrying is extremely limited, usually to a locked box in the trunk of your car on a route directly between your house and a duly registered range, or (in the case of a policeman) between their home and work.
Most of the time, they're left at work.
Of course, this isn't foolproof. However, looking at the rates of gun deaths, both accidental and intentional, in our two countries is pretty instructive, when you remember that getting a gun is quite difficult almost everywhere in Canada. For example, including the time I spent in cadets, I've seen maybe a few dozen guns in my entire life, and have handled three or four. Not including guns on policemen and armoured car security, I've seen exactly one handgun "in the flesh" as it were. Even if I wanted to shoot somebody, it would be pretty difficult for me to get a gun to do it here. I'd have to go to upper NY state and try to sneak one over the border.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #200,386
3/24/05 6:27:06 PM
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Thanks for explaining that
I don't think that's ever been an option here.
Even when my ex was a security guard, learning to shoot, he had to bring the gun back to the house. Of course it had to be locked in a lockbox, and it even had a trigger guard, but that doesn't stop someone who's determined.
Brenda
"The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr
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Post #200,403
3/24/05 8:42:25 PM
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go down to verdun and get one
in the 70's could buy an ak47 full auto there for 500 canadian. The same year monteal was the armed robbery capital of the world. Im sure the "hells" donthave licenses for their firearms. I know places In toronto, Hamilton Winnepeg and Vancouver where you still can get guns.
thanx,
bill
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #200,408
3/24/05 9:05:26 PM
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Hey box, I've not been in Mtl for over two years now
and it's true that if I really wanted to get one, I could get a gun here in Kingston. It still wouldn't be easy, and it would be quite expensive. Further, the likelihood of finding a gun in a random house is vanishingly small here, and extremely rare even in Verdun.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #200,903
3/28/05 1:43:03 PM
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In the military
at least in the Air Force, the Security Forces folks (police in the air force) keep their weapons locked in an armory when they're not actively on patrol. In fact, they urge anybody living on base to put their weapons in the armory as well (airmen in the dorms aren't given a choice, they have to)
~~~)-Steven----
"I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country..."
General George S. Patton
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Post #200,366
3/24/05 5:20:44 PM
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Step 1: take an axe to police officer...
--
And what are we doing when the two most powerful nations on earth -- America and Israel -- stomp on the elementary rights of human beings?
-- letter to the editor from W. Ostermeier, Liechtenstein
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Post #200,371
3/24/05 5:32:18 PM
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Step 2: be restrained by said officer's partner.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #200,374
3/24/05 5:36:44 PM
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Ideally, yes. But it only takes one lucky malcontent
to make headlines.
It's not like guns are used for masacres daily, either.
--
And what are we doing when the two most powerful nations on earth -- America and Israel -- stomp on the elementary rights of human beings?
-- letter to the editor from W. Ostermeier, Liechtenstein
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Post #200,375
3/24/05 5:40:20 PM
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Besides
Their partners are not normally in their residences when off duty, and this was clearly an off duty issue.
Brenda
"The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr
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Post #200,379
3/24/05 5:54:48 PM
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Holy geez, try to keep up
That's about the case in Britain that I mentioned earlier. Police in Britain aren't armed with guns anyway.
Arkadiy: but when they are, a lot more people get killed than would if the perp had been armed with a big knife, say.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #200,382
3/24/05 6:03:45 PM
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I'm trying
I must have missed that switch over... I don't feel all that great and my concentration isn't up to par.
Sorry.
Brenda
"The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr
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Post #200,384
3/24/05 6:14:35 PM
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Nah, I'm sorry
that was a little harsh of me, in retrospect. Hindsight's 20/20, as they say.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #200,385
3/24/05 6:25:19 PM
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No problem
I probably should be in bed, but I'm bored of being in bed, so I thought I'd try and catch up online.
Unfortunately, my thinking is pretty ragged at the moment. It's okay Jake, I didn't take it harshly, really. :)
Brenda
"The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr
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Post #200,406
3/24/05 8:57:10 PM
3/24/05 8:58:35 PM
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Re: Holy geez, try to keep up
Not strictly true, but when our boys/girls in blue do carry, they don't mess around: the police at Heathrow (the only place they routinely carry; every force has an ARU) are armed with sub-machine guns.
[link|http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2004/01/02/heathrow.jpg|http://image.guardia...1/02/heathrow.jpg]
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Edited by pwhysall
March 24, 2005, 08:58:35 PM EST
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Post #200,483
3/25/05 1:20:21 PM
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The Binary option?
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #200,416
3/24/05 9:25:20 PM
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I meant that the perp needs to get lucky against a cop
Or get a gun from a criminal.
And then we're back at square 1
--
And what are we doing when the two most powerful nations on earth -- America and Israel -- stomp on the elementary rights of human beings?
-- letter to the editor from W. Ostermeier, Liechtenstein
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Post #200,404
3/24/05 8:43:56 PM
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last weekin atlanta one guy in jail kills 4 people
he started out unarmed.
thnx,
bill
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #200,361
3/24/05 5:06:05 PM
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Re: How old are your kids?
I've had different people (their peers) tell me various things about my daughters (smoking, pot, sex, truancy). I've confronted them. They deny. Without proof, can't really do anything but keep eyes open and watch. You learn to read what they're saying by what is missing. That's what I'm saying. You're doing your job as a parent. I didnt realize that this boy had recently come to live with his grandparents. I'm not blaming the grandparents for this. By the time they got him he was already damaged and I'm sure they did the best they could. It just seems to me that every adult failed this kid, from his parents right on down the line to his teachers and his therapist.
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