Post #1,873
7/16/01 1:48:03 AM
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At last - a useable translation!
You omitted this Saul er Paul guy's misogyny (though bein a kinda Machiavellian dealmaker - maybe he didn't so much hate (== fear) the females - he was just willin to toss 'em to the wolves.. er literally and the usual sense. Tit for tat, so to speak. Let the shameless hussies stay on permanent KP duty) - or as a girlfriend once put it, "I want a wife!!"
Otherwise - close enough; ferGawdsake too: keep all this stuff outta the Learned Papers\ufffd o' the academicians OR the theologists : those guys* would? Do argue about what Is is or ain't except sometimes when Isn't ain't. And always too They Know! how it's all s'posed to be - can you imagine !?
* It's Always the guys what know exactly what sops they should toss the gals, notice?
Fan o' JBJ
poor guy had no idea what! the 'Certain' folk would do with his ideas!
(but he sure understood his buds - 'cept he maybe didn't get how screwed up ol Paul's psyche was ?)
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Post #1,890
7/16/01 8:25:31 AM
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that part was always hard to figure
Here was a guy described as a "respected" rabbi. If he wasnt married he couldnt have been that respected. As far as persecuting xians on the road to damascus, why? It was a sect that was orthodox in Nature. If he was one of the elite then he couldnt have been respected. I am not even sure he was a Jew since he denied being one later in life and I dont exactly buy Elliot's explaination(sorry Elliot.) He spent an awful lot of time putting down sex between man and woman but I dont see the same stress on sex with same gender although there is no evidence he bent that way. The other explaination for his marital status and hatred for women, he might have been a unix. (eunuch for non Dilbert readers) this was a common practice of the era but not Jewish common practice. That would explain his wish to destroy things.
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #1,894
7/16/01 8:43:55 AM
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Query.
You are talking about Paul the Apostle, yes? I am not even sure he was a Jew since he denied being one later in life and I dont exactly buy Elliot's explaination(sorry Elliot.) He denied it? Where? (And who is this Elliot?) Wade. "All around me are nothing but fakes
Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
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Post #1,906
7/16/01 10:09:21 AM
7/16/01 10:34:08 AM
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Long thread on slezyboard
between Nick, myself and Elliot about the apostle paul. Will check later and edit this post with the link
[link|http://pub13.ezboard.com/fiwetheyreligion.showMessage?topicID=149.topic|link]
talk about memory loss, the thread was with tlarcher with tselliot jumping in ocasionally.
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
Edited by boxley
July 16, 2001, 10:34:08 AM EDT
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Post #1,986
7/16/01 9:39:20 PM
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Ah. Thanks.
"All around me are nothing but fakes
Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
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Post #1,989
7/16/01 9:58:30 PM
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heres the part Paul was not born a Jew
verse 20 (corinthians?)
"And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews: to them that are under the law, as under the law that I might gain them that are under the law."
Huh? He states that he was a convert to Judaism (suspected so after checking the citizen requirements) "I became as a Jew" born in dont talk that way and was such a good convert that he used his position to harrass and kill heretics. So here we have the old time version of Koresh, Manson(bad), Billy Graham, Jimmy Swaggert(good even if Swaggert has a problem) etc. Is pretty meglomaniac though to try to take over a whole group like the Jews, Even the Jews cant do that.
But remember He did this before his conversion to Christianity, He knew he should be in charge but hadnt found a vehicle yet.
Now you might say he was talking about JC here except Jeshua ben Joseph WAS a Jew didnt act AS a Jew. Later he clarifies that he is speaking about himself. etc.
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #1,991
7/16/01 10:21:57 PM
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Don't take it completely out of isolation.
As Freep as posted already and as tlarcher has already expounded, Paul clearly identifies himself as having Jewish ancestry. This passage is Paul discussing how he approached the various major groups. "I became like a Jew..." could also indicate him using his Judaistic training to help him connect with the Jews.
Wade.
"All around me are nothing but fakes
Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
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Post #1,992
7/16/01 10:50:23 PM
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not to steal Nicks arg but
either it is literal or not. His actions if he were a Jew belie G_d's commandments the 613 that Jews were expected to obey. The OT teaches that prophets much be watched, if they break the law, or lie or prophesy falsly G_d didnt send them. Joshua Ben Joseph fits the prophet "rule" clearly Paul(Saul) fails on several counts from my prospective. Since Gentiles are not part of the covenant feel free to follow Paul's road, for me I have enough on my eternal plate without denying G_d's express wishes.
After all something has to keep you gentiles in line :) As long as it isnt the line killing us. :)
OT when do you sleep?
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,009
7/17/01 2:10:37 AM
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Clearly you do not accept Paul's authority.
And I can see you've already had extensive discussions about that, so you'll have to excuse me if I seem ignorant of their content (well, I am, since I hadn't followed them).
However, you raise another interesting point: Why do you call Paul a prophet?
Wade.
"All around me are nothing but fakes
Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
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Post #2,034
7/17/01 10:00:36 AM
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I dont
since he fails the test of a "true" prophet. He is not consistant, he breaks mosaic law (only matters if he was a jew) Jesus was a prophet since he did miracles, did not advocate breaking the law and preached the things all prophets preach, live G_d's word do not just give the appearance of G_d's word. Now Paul(Saul) claims to interpret Jesus in an entirely different manner than the rest of the Aposles and faught with them about it and won. Christians say he was correct and the others were not. That is fine. Al I can say by the prophet rule laid down by G_d is that he is false. IMHO
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,141
7/17/01 8:56:55 PM
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But you didn't answer my question.
Who is calling Paul a "prophet"? I'm not. Nor does the Christian teaching I subscribe to: we call him an Apostle. So why the concern over his failing the "prophet test"?
Wade.
"All around me are nothing but fakes
Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
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Post #2,167
7/17/01 11:14:21 PM
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sorry missed the question
we have prophets that give us directions and a messiah that will signify (something or other) we dont have apostles that is a gentile thing devised since the NT. We had prophets(leaders) until Saul where we whined for a King like the other heathens. Since we are human we wanted a warrior leader liked the clowns around us. G_d was indulgent because he needed to teach us a lesson. We are held to a different standard. I dont know what "authority" Paul/Saul had as it was self imposed and followed in defiance of G_d's word but since it is mostly Gentiles that follow him. It really has no bearing to me so should not expound too much on it. G_ds plan for the Gentiles is not really addressed in the OT and between the Koran, NT and the other religions the aim is the same. Dont wear yer religion on yer sleeve but in yer heart. Big deeds always beat big words and give the other feller yer shirt if he needs it more than you but dont fsck with anyone.
Feerless brought up a subject that some Christians beleive G_d's covenant with the Jews was broken with the death of Jesus(and he noted that he wasnt one with them) G_d doesnt break his word or he wouldnt be G_d. The Christian notion of G_d will condemn all those who do not recognise as G_d Jesus forget a couple of things. The ten commandments for one.
There is one God (except for his son who called on the cross for his father but no one can see his face but him and some ghost is the same guy) cant go there. I know that there is an explanation from (Paul) of course that explains all that but 1 is one, no one knows his name and if he has a ghost the OT doenst mention it. I am glad that you are a beleiving gentile, that gives you a moral code of some kind to live by just like ash has one. The scary people are the animal folk who beleive nothing and have no internal fair play system or ethics.
thanx,
bill
thanx,
bill_
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,373
7/19/01 5:27:32 PM
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More info for you on Paul
It comes from the [link|http://www.jewsforjesus.org/|Jews for Jesus] web site. [link|http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/evidence/paul.htm|[link|http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/evidence/paul.htm|http://www.jewsforj...nce/paul.htm]] some evidence on Paul. Also [link|http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/objections/paul.htm|[link|http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/objections/paul.htm|http://www.jewsforj...ons/paul.htm]] some objections. I hope that it helps clear things up. Nobody has to read it if they do not want to. [link|http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/qa/pauldeceive.htm|[link|http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/qa/pauldeceive.htm|http://www.jewsforj...ldeceive.htm]]:
The New Testament passage in question that supposedly reveals
Paul as a deceiver is First Corinthians 9:20-22:
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those
under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself
am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those
not having the law I became like one not having the law (though
I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as
to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to
win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by
all possible means I might save some.
Far from being deceptive, Paul, when he wrote the passage
from First Corinthians, was drawing on Jewish communications
methods of his day. Like other Jewish leaders, Paul was simply
being a good teacher and communicator. What Paul sets forth in
First Corinthians is not a principle of deceit and expediency,
but a principle of communication such as was taught and practiced
by Hillel and others. Craig Keener, Professor
of New Testament, Hood Theological Seminary, places First Corinthians
9:20-22 firmly within a Jewish context.
Some Jewish teachers, like Hillel, were similarly accommodationists,
to win as many as possible to the truth.
--The IVP Bible Background Commentary (Downers
Grove IL: InterVarsity Press, 1993), p. 472.
Similarly, David Daube, a Jewish Professor
of Law at University of California, Berkeley, wrote at length
about Paul's principles as found in First Corinthians 9:20-22.
The following is taken from a much longer chapter, "Missionary
Maxims in Paul," which is found in Daube's book The New
Testament and Rabbinic Judaism:
[This idea is] taken over by Paul from Jewish teaching on
the subject: the idea that you must adopt the customs and mood
of the person you wish to win over....
First, for the idea of accommodation. Let us start from a
passage in I Corinthians [Daube quotes First Corinthians 9:20-22].
This attitude had formed part of Jewish missionary practice
long before Paul. Two Talmudic illustrations of Hillel's work
are relevant: he accepted into the fold a gentile who refused
to acknowledge the oral Law, and he accepted another who refused
to acknowledge any Law beyond the most fundamental ethical principle
[b. Shabbat 31a and Avot de-Rabbi Nathan 15]...At the decisive
moment of conversion, he fell in with the notions of the applicant
and declared himself satisfied with recognition of the written
Law or a single, basic moral precept....
Hillel, we might put it, was made all things to all men, that
he might by all means save some.
[Hillel had a saying] which may chiefly contemplate relations
to outsiders [Tosefta Berachot 2.24]: "Do not appear naked,
do not appear dressed, do not appear laughing, do not appear
weeping -- as it is said, A time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing [Ecclesiastes
3:4f.]....
In the treatises Derekh Eretz Rabba and Derekh Eretz Zuta,
we meet with descendants of Hillel's maxim. The former contains
this paragraph: "A man should not be joyful among the weeping,
nor weep among the joyful, nor wake among the sleeping, nor sleep
among the waking, nor stand among the sitting, nor sit among
the standing--the principle of the matter is, A man should not
make different his mind from that of his fellows and the sons
of men." The passage from Derekh Eretz Zuta is substantially
the same, with two exceptions: there is a further pair of warnings,
"nor should he read Scripture among those reading Mishnah,
nor Mishnah among those reading Scripture," while the summing
up runs, "A man should not differ from the usage of the
creatures."
These paragraphs are evidence that Hillel's idea was taken
up by others and lived on....
| "I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!" | Moe Howard |
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Post #2,400
7/19/01 9:30:50 PM
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Interesting excerpts. Thanks.
"All around me are nothing but fakes
Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
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Post #2,438
7/20/01 10:40:30 AM
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You are most welcome
it is better to show a debate already played out, than to play the same one out again. This was we can go over the old debate, and see what issues they didn't already cover. :)
| "I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!" | Moe Howard |
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Post #2,071
7/17/01 1:51:34 PM
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Bad example
He says "as a Jew" or "like a Jew". He doesn't say he became a Jew, just that when witnessing to those who were Jews, he followed the ceremonial law. This is like saying "I act as an accountant so I can communicate with the accountants", even though I'm really a programmer. It doesn't mean I'm an accountant, just that I behave as one to aid communication
The preceeding verse makes the point clear
Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
In Romans and other writings he has already declared that the Mosaic Law no longer has hold on him because he has been set free from the Law through Christ. Here is just reiterating that point and then going on that he will still follow aspects of the Law in order to reach those who are still following the Law.
That point is driven home again because of the next verse
To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law.
So to apply the same logic of your first verse, this verse implies that Paul was a Jew but became a Gentile in order to reach the Gentiles.
Verse 20: I was a Gentile who became a Jew to reach the Jews
Verse 21: I was Jew who became a Gentile to reach the Gentiles
It's logically inconsistant, which means you can't read "becamse as a" to indicate "I was not one but then I became one" but must read it as "in one context, I behaved one way, in anther context, I behaved another way".
This is more logically consistant as Paul as already said he was born a Jew (and the son of a Pharisee)
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #2,109
7/17/01 5:44:43 PM
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Spiritiual Jews?
I think someone, not sure who, had once referred to Christians as "Spiritual Jews". Not sure if that makes any sense or not.
In my humble opinion, Jewish people are our friends. Some Christians may think otherwise, but we are all God's children even if what we believe differs greatly.
I believe that the Inquisition, the Cruisades, and other stuff came about because of The Devil having control over the people in charge. The AntiChrist will not be an Atheist or a Pagan, but will be one that comes out of Christianity and twists things around to set himself or herself up like another Christ (a false Christ) but instead worship the devil and try to off the Jewish people in the process. Read the book of Revelations for more info. The AntiChrist is more of a modern Judus, who will sell us down the river. We had many "false starts" in history, like the Nazis, etc. We must be aware of what could happen in the future. They will take our system and twist it around to their own uses. Just my two cents worth.
| "I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!" | Moe Howard |
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Post #2,126
7/17/01 7:31:07 PM
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Just multiply 'your take' by the total number
of folks born since say 00 Anno Domini - take the square root of the sum of the squares and call that ~
Average (RMS) Christian Credo. Pick yer fav variation on the theme, from ever so Many.
And continue to wonder - how Anybody could possibly miss! all this unalloyed Wisdom, so clearly set-out as to be well,
unArguable: everybody's Right and it's all Truth and - well,
never mind.
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Post #2,128
7/17/01 7:48:12 PM
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Doesn't to me
I think someone, not sure who, had once referred to Christians as "Spiritual Jews". Not sure if that makes any sense or not.
Some Christians have said that the Jews were put aside in God's plans and promises for rejecting Jesus and the Christians have replaced them. I don't hold to that belief. The Jews are still God's chosen people and I believe it is nothing short of miraculous that they are still around as a people group and nation after what has happened in their history (going all the way back to the enslavement in Egypt)
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #2,133
7/17/01 8:20:10 PM
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Part of the reason is that we have been
burned by messiah wannabee's so many time that all we have to hold onto is the law and the promise.
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,194
7/18/01 10:43:35 AM
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I agree somewhat
yes there have been messiah wannabes, and the Roman government and some Jewish Leaders at the time tried to cover up events that took place while Jesus was around. They feared Jesus because they thought he would lead a revolution against the authority at the time, as so many messiah wannabes had done during that time before. But I believe Jesus to be the real-deal, he didn't lead with violence, he led with peace and he came to set things right. He came to help the common people, Gentiles and Jews, not the leaders and wealthy (top 5%).
But I consider that God doesn't go back on his promises, and the old promises are still good. Something changed with the Jewish religion during the time of Jesus, for example Animal Sacrifices seemed to have stopped. I wonder why? Could it be that Jesus ended the sacrifices by sacrificing himself? I tend to think so. Jesus did say that the only way to his father is through him. I wonder if that means that he is the ultimate judge at the end of time, and whoever doesn't believe in him, has to face him on judgement day in order to get into Heaven or go to another place? Those that do believe in him and ask for forgiveness of their sins are forgiven and can pass judgement.
Jesus and his apostles preaced to Jewish people and Gentiles, and at the time the early religon was simply known as "The Way". It apparently has changed over the ages in name and the way some things are done. We must never forget the roots of our religion, which came from the Jewish Religion, we have built on that. Many Christians seem to forget the history of our religion and what was going on at the time our religion was being founded.
But still, even if there have been a million messiah wannabes, why give up hope on the one true real deal? At least hope and pray that the real deal will come, or that you discover that the real deal had been here all along. I believe that the real deal is Jesus, but that is just my belief. I doubt that I am wrong, I know that I am right. I have been moved by the Holy Spirit, I have felt God's power. Even if I am troubled by other things, I know what I know because God has revealed it to me somehow.
| "I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!" | Moe Howard |
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Post #2,197
7/18/01 11:13:57 AM
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Practically speaking
or example Animal Sacrifices seemed to have stopped. I wonder why?
The pragmatic reason being that the temple was destroyed by the Romans in 70AD. Read what you wish into that
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
|
Post #2,198
7/18/01 11:21:35 AM
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Misread
yes there have been messiah wannabes, and the Roman government and some Jewish Leaders at the time tried to cover up events that took place while Jesus was around. They feared Jesus because they thought he would lead a revolution against the authority at the time, as so many messiah wannabes had done during that time before.
Actually, the Romans had very little interest in Jesus. Some Jews were looking for a Messiah who would throw off Roman rule and restablish David's throne; Jesus was...not quite what they expected. The Jewish religious leaders at the time didn't really fear Jesus in a revolutionary way, they wanted Jesus killed because Jesus committed blasphemy. Which is the ultimate irony; if Jesus *was* the Messiah, the Jewish religious leaders were very wrong, but if Jesus *wasn't* the Messiah, the Jewish religious leaders were right in getting Jesus executed because Jesus said things that warrented execution under Jewish law.
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #2,209
7/18/01 12:49:35 PM
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slight disagreement
It would be more like the Pope wanting to execute Foulwell.
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,210
7/18/01 1:00:07 PM
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Don't agree
Jesus made some claims that equated himself with God. The Sanhedrin recognized and understood what Jesus was saying and knew that it warranted execution.
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
|
Post #2,221
7/18/01 1:48:13 PM
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he claimed he was G_d?
when? when asked point blank about whether he was G_d his reply was so you say. He very lawerly responded to their accusations. Hows about some examples so I ould re-read to text.
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,228
7/18/01 2:25:20 PM
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Sure
Well saying "it is as you say" is pretty much saying it, isn't it?
The accusation that he claimed to be the "Son Of God" was made against him, which would mean the death penalty, and he never denied it or defended himself.
Anyway...
Matthew 16:15-17
"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
Peter calls Jesus the Son Of God and the Messiah and Jesus supports that statement
John 8:58
I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
What's missing in the English translation is that Jesus used the same phrase as is found in Exodus 3:15 when God tells Moses that he, God, is the "I AM. This is a phrase that linguistically cannot be used without actually claiming to be God. When God used that phrase in Exodus, he was making a statement about himself, when Jesus used it later on, he was saying the same thing
Matthew 9:2-6
Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven." At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, "This fellow is blaspheming!" Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? Which is easier: to say, `Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, `Get up and walk'? But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...." Then he said to the paralytic, "Get up, take your mat and go home."
No one can forgive another except for what has been done to them. I can't forgive your wrongs against a friend of yours. I can only forgive your wrongs to me. Ultimately, all sin is against God, and therefore only God can forgive sins. Here Jesus is claiming to forgive the paralytics sins, not his sins against Jesus, but his sins in general. The teachers of the law recognized what this meant, that he was claiming to be able to forgive sins, something only God, the ultimate wronged party in all sins, could do. For Jesus to claim to have the power to forgive sins is Jesus claiming power reserved to God, thus making Jesus equal to God. So the charge of blasphemy was correct if Jesus was not indeed God..
This passage is mirrored in Mark. Jesus offering to forgive sins, and the stunned reaction of those around him who understood the implication, was repeated several times, include Like 7:48,49
There are more examples. Usually Jesus didn't go around and say "I am the Son Of God" but merely said thins and claimed things only God could say and claim. I can dig up some more if you'd like
Incidentally, Jesus oftened called himself the "Son Of Man", which is an intersting term on the surface. What Jesus was using was the same term found in Daniel 7:13,14
"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
Not exactly a claim to be God but a very significant title for oneself, probably a claim to be the Messiah.
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #2,246
7/18/01 4:20:11 PM
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that was chuck's favorite phrase too.
Man Son. We are all the sons and daughters of G_d and yes I may forgive your sins. You are forgiven. That does not break any law. I also was before adam. That is the metaphysical part of Judaism, not the practical speaking. You can claim to be the son of G_d because there is only ONE G_d not threesomes:). If you look at the 613 laws laid out in the old testament you will not find that forgiving sins and healing the sick is against any of them. Never claimed Jesus was not a prophet, he was a most important one and after the destruction of the temple and the rigid structure, his teachings were being taught by many in the diaspora. Blasphemy? Not hardly. Pissing in the face of the Officials? Yep death has been a sentence for a lot less.
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,249
7/18/01 4:47:03 PM
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Pretty far fetched
First Jesus didn't claim to be the son of God, now he did, but it doesn't really mean that. Pretty flimsy reply
The problem is...nobody who was actually there took what he said that way.
John 5:17,18
Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. emph. mine
The people who heard Jesus knew exactly what he was saying. If they made such a profund misunderstanding of what Jesus was saying, then he was a very bad teacher. He also never corrected them, even though their interpretation of his words got him killed
You are forgiven.
You can say it, but do you mean it? Are you actually saying that you have forgiven my sins against God. That's what Jesus said
Never claimed Jesus was not a prophet,
I do. A Prophet was the last thing in the world Jesus could've been
"Woe to me!" I cried. "I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty." - Isaiah
"I and the Father are one." - Jesus
Blasphemy? Not hardly.
Not according to those who heard him;
"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. - Matthew 26:64,65 (note: he uses the phrase "Son Of Man", again)
but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." John 10:32,33
When Jesus saw their faith, he said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven."
The Pharisees and the teachers of the law began thinking to themselves, "Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?" - Luke 5:20,21
So even if you claim that Jesus was being metaphysical, the people who heard him took him very literally and killed him for it. He *never* disputed their claims, neither did he ever try to correct them
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #2,270
7/18/01 9:37:34 PM
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ya dont know too many mystics do ya
I wasnt there either to here what was said but as a son of G_d I could sit at his right hand. That is where we come from and where we "hope" to return. But to be a messiah a couple of things need to happen, a few things in Jesus's case is missing. If he was the messiah how did the temple come to be destroyed? nonsense if he was the messiah he would be sitting there still in the temple opened for business. You are waiting for the mesiah to return I am waiting for the first appearance and it might even be the same entity but Jesus cannot be the son of G_d and G_d at the same time. There is only one G_d. On the cross he was adressing him as father, was he talking to himself? No he was clearly a separate entity. He also said he would not change the law until the end of time. He did not say I will not change the Law until my servant Paul gets here to straighten you out. That is why I beleive Jesus was/is a Jew and Paul wanted to hijack a religion.
Please I enjoy talking about this but I do respect your beliefs and commend you for it.
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,277
7/18/01 10:26:42 PM
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Back on track?
If he was the messiah ...
Please keep in mind that I am not claiming Jesus is the Messiah in this discussion. (I think he is, you think he's not)
My singular point in this discussion is that Jesus claimed to be God and it was for that that he was executed; and not only that but that based on what he said, if he wasn't the Messiah, then his execution was justified.
No for some other points
On the cross he was adressing him as father, was he talking to himself?
You ever talk to your self in time of crisis :)
He also said he would not change the law until the end of time.
Actually, he just said "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."[1] He also "I have come not to abolish the law but to fulfill it"[2] and then on the cross he said "it is finished"[3] See the connection. Like a contract that is in force until it's terms are complete. Jesus came not to terminate the contract prematurely but to fulfill it's terms.
He did not say I will not change the Law until my servant Paul gets here to straighten you out.
Interestingly, Peter was the first to break the Law.
He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat." "Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean." The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean." This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven. - Acts10:11-16
This was after Paul's conversion but before he had met Peter, or even started preaching
Paul wanted to hijack a religion.
As far as Paul and the Law, Paul goes on at length in "Romans" explaining that the Law is still in effect for those who have not accepted Jesus as Messiah
"All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous."
Here (Romans in general) and in other places (Galatians 3:25 is a good one) Paul presents a duality. You are either under Christ or under the Law. If you are under Christ, he Law no longer applies. If you are not under Christ, you are still subject, and will be judged by, the Law
To clarify: I'm not saying Paul was right, I'm meerly saying that Paul's teaching on the law was more complex than to merely reject it. He actually argued for it under certain circumstances
Please I enjoy talking about this but I do respect your beliefs and commend you for it.
Hey, it keeps me on my toes...and is sorta fun as long as the conversation is kept polite
[1]Matthew 5:18
[2]Matthew 5:17
[3]John 19:30
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #2,230
7/18/01 2:34:41 PM
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Re: he claimed he was G_d?
He very lawerly responded to their accusations.
One other note about this is that when Jesus was brought before the Roman leadership (Pilate, later Herod, than back to Pilate) they couldn't find anything to convict him for on legal grounds. Pilate wanted to release Jesus for being innocent. The Jewish leadership didn't have the authority (under Roman rule) to execute Jesus. They wanted to execute him for blasphemy, which the Romans wouldn't go for, so they trumped up an insurrection charge, which the Romans didn't buy. If the Jews or the Romans feared Jesus as a revolutionary, it would've been fairly easy to have him executed, but the Jews needed to get the Romans to execute Jesus for reasons of Jewish religious law, something the Romans were reluctant to do, until Pilate finally caved and said basically "do what you want, but it's on your head"
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #2,208
7/18/01 12:46:43 PM
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this might clear up a few misconceptions
[link|http://www.jewishhistory.org.il/|http://www.jewishhistory.org.il/] you will find that almost every other generation had a messiah wannabee that hurt us. Including this generation.
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,211
7/18/01 1:05:13 PM
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Huh?
Lot's of interesting historym but I don't see a profusion of Messiah-claiments and the damge they caused
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #2,224
7/18/01 1:57:07 PM
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sorry I was to terse in prior post
that was to explain why Jews dont sacrifice animals ( because they dont have a temple)as well as a secular history. The otherr comments wre my own. Example the lubavitchers thought one of their own was the messiach just 2 years ago. They waited for him to proclaim but he did not, and he passed away and stayed dead. Every generation of Jews has a messiah wannabe not of his own choosing but followers who beleive in his teachings.
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,247
7/18/01 4:40:07 PM
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How will you know a true messiah?
G_d did promise one, if you don't think that the true messiah arrived yet, how can you be sure that the real one is the real one and not another pretender?
For example, I can gather up a crowd of homeless people and out of 100 find at least 1 that claims to be G_d or some other religious figure. They might even do a good enough job to fool some people. We are told that there will be many false prohpets or false messiahs. How can we then tell the real deals?
Jesus really didn't say in his trials that he was or wasn't, he wanted us to believe it ourselves by faith. It was always like "it is you who say that" or some other verbal judo like "those are you words, not mine" or something like that. In the Christian religion we have a trinity, G_d has three parts. The first being the Father, who is in Heaven. The second being the Holy Spirit, usually rays of light or fire, that come down and bless us, also known as the Holy Ghost. The third being the son, made human and walked with us, became one of us, but was still divine. St. Patrick taught that G_d was like a clover, had three leafs but was one. G_d is able to take three forms, well actually he took on other forms like a burning bush once, but anyway G_d can change his appearance. Most people picture G_d the father as a very strong old man with a white beard and white hair that sits on a throne in Heaven. He is the original form of G_d that only a few have really seen.
| "I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!" | Moe Howard |
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Post #6,421
8/23/01 6:50:23 AM
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Re: How will you know a true messiah?
Very simple. The Bible tells us what the Messiah will do. If we read the clearly Messianic prophesies we see that the prophesies focus on 2 points: 1) World Peace (Because the focus of the OT is primarily on the Jews and on Israel, this idea is often expressed by describing the future peaceful conditions in Israel) 2) Recognition of God. Another subset of the prophesies focus on the Messiah himself(in both of the above contexts). Here is 1 of the prophesies:
Ezekiel 37
24 "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow my ordinances and be careful to observe my statutes.
25 They shall dwell in the land where your fathers dwelt that I gave to my servant Jacob; they and their children and their children's children shall dwell there for ever; and David my servant shall be their prince for ever.
26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will bless them and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Note how in verse 24 it says that even in the Messianic era that they will follow the law.
Another Messianic prophesy is the famous quote "they shall beat their swords into plowshares", meaning there will be world peace. No one can say by any stretch of the imagination that these prophesies have come true. When these come true we will know that person is the true Messiah.
I would like to add another point about miracles and the Messiah. The OT doesn't say, anywhere that the Messiah will do miracles nor does it say anywhere that we will know someone is the Messiah because he did miracles. Why not? The answer is very simple. We know from the Bible how insignificant miracles are. When Moses went to Egypt, the magicians of Pharaoh were able to duplicate at least three of the ten miraculous plagues. When Aaron changed his staff into a snake, the Egyptians did so as well. Elisha the Prophet brought people back from the dead, was he the Messiah? Elijah brought down fire from heaven was he the Messiah? Daniel was thrown in the lion's pit and survived was he the Messiah? One does not even have to be a legitimate person to be able to perform miracles. Certainly, one need not be the Messiah to perform miracles. In fact, God himself specifically says
Deuteronomy 13
1 "If a prophet arises among you, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or a wonder,
2 and the sign or wonder which he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, 'Let us go after other gods,' which you have not known, and let us serve them,'
3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
God specifically says that there will arise false prophets who WILL do miracles, yet, God says don't follow them.
The bottom line is, that the Messiah has nothing to do with miracles, the Messiah will be the descendent of David who brings World Peace and Knowledge of God, as that has not happened the Messiah has not come.
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Post #2,251
7/18/01 4:50:10 PM
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Re: sorry I was to terse in prior post
Example the lubavitchers thought one of their own was the messiach just 2 years ago. They waited for him to proclaim but he did not, and he passed away and stayed dead. Every generation of Jews has a messiah wannabe not of his own choosing but followers who beleive in his teachings
I thought, half tongue-in-cheek, that a great "Messiah test" would be to simply execute everyone claiming to be the Messiah. Those that stay dead...were wrong. May cut down on the number of false claiments
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #2,256
7/18/01 5:21:22 PM
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When you are skeptical of anyone
claiming to be a messiah, any possible messiah appears to be false. Even a true one would appear to be false. How can you tell?
I keep thinking of "Life of Brian" where they illustrated how easily fooled people could be into thinking a false messiah is real. I am talking about Brian, in that story, being worshiped by people who mistook him for the real deal.
But I believe that Jesus is the real deal. Just that not everyone is keen on that idea. Jesus seems to make sense to me as a messiah. I believe that he will show up once again to set things right.
| "I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!" | Moe Howard |
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Post #2,258
7/18/01 5:26:20 PM
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"The Dwarves are for the Dwarves"
When you are skeptical of anyone claiming to be a messiah, any possible messiah appears to be false. Even a true one would appear to be false. How can you tell?
Read C.S.Lewis' The Last Battle about people being so afraid of being taken in by a false prohet that they miss the real thing
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #2,271
7/18/01 9:43:29 PM
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easy stuff
he must have a great knowledge of torah
he must/may preform miracles
he will arrive after the temple is rebuilt (gotta have a place for sacrifices)
the most important one is that he will lead us the Jews part one
and never contradict by action or word any of the 613 laws of G_d or cause us as a people great harm part 2.
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,281
7/18/01 11:12:08 PM
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So um.... :)
Jesus fulfilled several of those and said "I'll get back to you on that" for the rest :)
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #2,294
7/19/01 8:50:51 AM
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need all of them and be decended from David
on his moms side. Hafta check with BLuke but I think he needs to be a Cohen.
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,329
7/19/01 1:37:18 PM
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Re: need all of them and be decended from David
and be decended from David on his mom's side
He was. Luke's geneology account is Mary's geneology. Joseph was Heli's son-in-law, the distinction of which gets lost in the translation
need all of them
If your boss comes and says "The consultant is going to fix our database and tune the kernal" and he comes and fixes the database and says "I'll be back later to tune the kernal compile" does that mean he was not the consultant because he did not fulfill the contract, or just that he hasn't fulfilled it all yet?
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #2,346
7/19/01 2:48:57 PM
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no problemo
if he shows back up to do the rest I can ask what the fsck Paul thought he was doing. Will be very happy to go to temple etc.
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,362
7/19/01 4:32:40 PM
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Jesus is supposed to come back
he did what he came out to do, die for our sins, and then left his people in charge. He will return one day, and only G_d knows what day that will be.
Paul is not Jesus, but he tried to run the church for Jesus. Just like the man who runs your Synagogue is not Moses. We have to deal with representatives when the real one is not there. In the Catholic faith, we have the Pope, for example to represent Jesus. Keep in mind that the representative is not the same as the real thing, and like any other human being, the representative can sin like the rest of us and/or make mistakes. They are just the ones that got left in charge.
| "I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!" | Moe Howard |
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Post #2,426
7/20/01 8:49:57 AM
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If you look at every religion
Lets look at the Mormons, they had a prophet wh started it, then after he dies an accountant type moves in, changes some fundamental rules and starts a cult of personality. The Mormon church of today is not identical with the founded church.
Muslim religion was started by Mohammed, he died and there was a battle on who was going to rule. You have heard of those laws where women in Arabia must wear total coverings in public? that is not in their teachings it came later after some early ayatola highjacked the church. Communism was great in the beginnig then was hijacked by stalin. Every major religion started out pure and then was hijacked by an accounting type who saw that all this thing needed was a little rule change here and there and people to worship him.
That is my point about Paul. Nothing Jesus said or did was that shocking, earlier prophets said the same or worse. Paul dramatically changed the whole thing for the worse IMHO
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,436
7/20/01 10:38:14 AM
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Sorry but...
Nothing Jesus said or did was that shocking, earlier prophets said the same or worse. Paul dramatically changed the whole thing for the worse IMHO
I guess this is where the conversation ends because you've pretty much ignored everything I've posted contrary of this statement. The discussion has been cordial, but ultimately useless, as you've pretty much been saying the same thing over and over without bothering to address the points in opposition to your claims
but I guess it was fun for awhile
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #2,469
7/20/01 1:33:17 PM
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Everyone is entitled to their own opinions
BOxley has decided that in his opinion, Paul messed things up. It doesn't seem like anything posted here will change that opinion.
I support his right to his opinion even if I do not agree with that opinion. Sure Paul did what he thought was best and he wasn't Jesus, but Jesus had the faith in Paul to do the right thing, and that to me is what counts. It doesn't matter to me if Paul was Jewish or not, Paul was apparently the one that Jesus had chosen to be the witness and spread the word. It seems to me, in my humble opinion, that Paul/Saul was born Jewish, was raised up in Rome and exposed to Roman (gentile) teachings, then saw Jesus and had his life turned around and became as a Jew again, but knew that he had to teach to Jews and Gentiles, the teachings of Jesus. After all, Jesus did heal more than just Jewish people on his travels.
Just my two cents.
| "I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!" | Moe Howard |
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Post #2,468
7/20/01 1:26:38 PM
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This is the way it is in the world
be it religion, a business, government, whathaveyou. The US Federal Government isn't the same one as the founding fathers started. Others took over for them, and admended the laws and changed the way things got done. For example, Honest Abe fixed the problem with owning slaves that our founding fathers could not fix. (Or would not, as many of them owned slaves themselves despite speaking against slavery) But in any case, I see your point. Paul is not Jesus, nowhere close. Paul made things the way he thought they should be, and ran them the way we chose to run them. While talking to Jews, he acted as if he was a Jew, while talking to gentiles he acted as if he was a gentile. Salespeople do this every day, they try to mimmick the bodylanguage of the person they are talking to, and try to act like them. When a politician goes to Texas, does he/she wear a "I Love NY" shirt and a NY Mets Baseball cap and start off speeches with "Redneck" jokes? Or does that politician wear a cowboy hat and boots and start off a speech about Texas pride? Paul originally spoke against Jesus, until Jesus came down and said to Paul who he was and what Paul was doing to him. Or rather as Saul this happened, and he used his Greek name Paul later on. [link|http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/03-04/paul.htm|[link|http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/03-04/paul.htm|http://www.jewsforj...-04/paul.htm]]
About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, 'Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me? "'Who are you, Lord?' I asked. "'I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting,' he replied" (Acts 22:6-8).
Then in Damascus, a fellow Jew named Ananias informed Saul of the work God had in store for him: "You will be his witness to all men of what you have seen and heard" (Acts 22:15). Therefore, Saul, also known by his Greek name, Paul, spent the greater part of the remaining three decades of his life in foreign nations where he taught the Greek--speaking Gentiles about the "Christ"--the "Messiah."
It looks like Jesus turned an enemy into an ally. Paul became a witness to all men. | "I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!" | Moe Howard |
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Post #6,423
8/23/01 6:57:40 AM
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Re: need all of them and be decended from David
One of the fundamental points about the Messiah is that he must be descended from the House of David, and not only from the House of David, but a certain branch of the House of David. This presents great problems for Jesus being the the Messiah as we will see.
Christians believe that Jesus was born of a virgin birth, he had no father. As we all know lineage is paternal we see this clearly in Number 1:2
"Take a census of all the congregation of the people of Israel, by families, by fathers' houses, according to the number of names, every male, head by head" (see also Number 1:18).
Therefore it is hard to see how Jesus could be from the House of David as he has no father. Christians answer that his lineage is through Joseph. Even if somehow we accepted that lineage could travel through
a NON-BIOLIGICAL parent, it wouldn't help as the purported lineage of Joseph is not from the right(Messianic) branch of King David. In Matthew, Joseph's lineage is presented as going through Jeconiah. However Jeremiah clearly states that Jeconiah was cursed and none of his descendents would asend to the throne:
Jeremiah 22:24,28-30
24."Surely as I live," says *GOD*, "You, Jeconiah, the son of Jehoiakim, king of Judah, even if you were a signet ring upon my right hand, I would cast you off!"
28.Is this man Jeconiah a broken, abominable idol, an object for which no one cares?...
30.Write this man off as if childless, a man who shall not prosper in his days, because no one descended from him shall find success in sitting in the Kingship of David or ruling any more in Judah.
The curse effectively removes Joseph, a direct descendant of Jeconiah, from ever being a claimant to the royal throne. Jesus couldn't possibly inherit the throne from him, even if we ascribe Joseph's lineage to Jesus.
Even more interesting, is that Luke gives a different genealogy where Joseph is descended from Heli. Some Christians try to answer by saying that Luke is describing Mary's lineage. However, there is no support for the notion that it is Mary's line. Besides, it is irrelevant, because lineage is paternal. Luke's genealogy presents a different problem as well, as the lineage goes from David to Nathan (not Solomon). However the Bible clearly states that the Messiah would descend from Solomon:
1 Chron 22:9-10
9.Behold, a son shall be born to you, who shall be a man of peace, for I will give him peace from all his enemies, for his name shall be Solomon...
10.He shall build the HOUSE for my name, and he shall be my son, and I will be his father, and I WILL establish the throne of HIS kingdom over Israel FOREVER.
Again this lineage (not through Solomon)effectively removes Joseph, from ever being a claimant to the royal throne as God states that he established Solomon and his descendents on the throne forever. Therefore, Jesus couldn't possibly inherit the throne from Joseph, even if we ascribe Joseph's lineage to Jesus.
To sum up, we have the following problems with Jesus being the Messiah:
1) If Jesus had no father(virgin birth) then he is not from the House of David
2) Even if we allow Jesus to use the lineage of Joseph (his non-bioligical father) the lineage in Matthew goes through the cursed branch of Jeconiah and therefore cannot be the Messiah and the lineage in Luke is not through Solomon.
3) The lineages in the NT conflict
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Post #6,482
8/23/01 1:35:12 PM
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Re: need all of them and be decended from David
1) If Jesus had no father(virgin birth) then he is not from the House of David
He's still of the House of David by blood through Mary. Geneology is traced throught the father, but you can still be of a given house through the mother (as illustrated by the fact that the Jews currently trace lineage through the mother due to the holocaust making lineage very difficult to trace, especially throug fathers)
Also, by being the adpoted son of Joseph, he gets the legal rights as well. He avoids the curse of Jeconiah by not beeing of his seed, but still gets the legal lineage to David through Jeseph and the blood relation to David through Mary
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #6,711
8/26/01 3:18:16 AM
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With all due respect...
These are at best poor answers. Let us examine them.
You wrote: " Geneology is traced throught the father, but you can still be of a given house through the mother (as illustrated by the fact that the Jews currently trace lineage through the mother due to the holocaust making lineage very difficult to trace, especially throug fathers)"
It is a yes or no question, if genealogoy is traced through the father then the mother is out. The OT clearly states that genealogy is based solely on the father.The point about Jews tracing lineage through the mother is incorrect. For someone to be Jewish their mother needs to be Jewish. However, their lineage is through the father only. This is not recent due to the Holocaust, this is the way Judaism has always been (this is recorded in the Talmud). Why this split is a different question it is based on the oral law, however it has no bearing on the discussion here because Christianity denies the oral law and goes soley with the OT (if you really want to know look in the talmud at the end of kiddushin). The fact is, from the OT alone, all you see if that lineage is paternal.
You wrote: "Also, by being the adpoted son of Joseph, he gets the legal rights as well. He avoids the curse of Jeconiah by not beeing of his seed, but still gets the legal lineage to David through Jeseph and the blood relation to David through Mary"
Unfortunately, if you think about it, this makes absolutely no sense. Even ignoring the obvious problem that lineage is only paternal, neither genealogy is fit for the Messiah (Joseph's because of the curse and Mary's because it is not from Solomon) Therefore 0 + 0 = 0. How does it help that Mary's line avoids the curse, Mary's line still can't be the Messiah because it is not descended from Solomon. What you propose to do, take the 1 point that you want from Joseph, namely descended from Solomon and throw away the rest, and take the 1 point from Mary that Nathan was not cursed and throw away the rest is laughable, the bottom line is that Joseph was descended from Jeconiah who was cursed and Mary was not descended from Solomon making neither of them nor their descendents fit to be the Messiah.
I am absolutely amazed. This is not a side issue, this relates to the basis of Christianity, yet, no one can give a clear and reasonable answer how it is even possible for Jesus to be the Messiah based on the lineage given in the NT.
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Post #6,754
8/27/01 1:25:05 AM
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Nonsense.
I am absolutely amazed. This is not a side issue, this relates to the basis of Christianity, yet, no one can give a clear and reasonable answer how it is even possible for Jesus to be the Messiah based on the lineage given in the NT.
No one?
I beg to differ.
"The whole bible was cooked up by drunken students who wanted to be poets/playwrights.".
Clear, Reasonable, and is a perfect fit from what we know of history and the world.
Addison
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Post #6,424
8/23/01 7:02:40 AM
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What is the basis for the Second Coming?
The clearly Messianic prophesies all state that the Messiah will bring world peace and restore the Jews to the land with the Messiah as King. THIS HAS NOT HAPPENED YET.
The standard Christian answer is that there will be a Second Coming. There are a number of very serious problems with this:
1) What is the source for this in the OT, none of the Messianic prophesies mention 2 comings. All of the Messianic prophecies have a first coming perspective. None of the verses indicate that the Messiah has been around before.
2) A second coming theory gives no credibility to the first coming. Using this theory, we could make practically anyone in history into the Messiah(i.e. Bar Kochva). Even if our random candidate accomplished nothing, we can claim that he will meet success in his second coming.
2) Jesus himself in the NT said he would return in the lifetimes of his disciples, he didn't. Here are some quotes:
Mark 9:1 "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death at all until they see the kingdom of God having come [that is, after it has come] with power."
Well those people are all long dead and Jesus hasn't returned yet.
Matthew 10:23
"But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for truly I say to you, you shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes"
From this verse we see that Matthew's Jesus promised to return before the apostles visited all the cities of Israel. It didn't happen.
The bottom line is, the Messiah will be the descendent of David who brings World Peace and Knowledge of God, as that has not happened the Messiah has not come.
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Post #2,272
7/18/01 9:45:37 PM
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thats not the problem
its all the followers who claim a guy is the messiah but he doesnt aknowledge with a yes or no. (sound familiar?) and he either dies of old age or someone in authority has him killed, and he doesnt arise.
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,286
7/19/01 1:51:09 AM
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Ah.
I suspected we were heading this way. :-)
Did Jesus rise from the dead? I say He did. Others here will, too. I can tell you will say not. Evidence one way or the other has fuelled arguments for centuries - millenia, even. Do we go down that path?
Wade.
"All around me are nothing but fakes
Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
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Post #2,295
7/19/01 8:53:13 AM
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No I believe he rose from the dead
Doesnt mean he was the Messiah, Moses never died Elijah neither. Samson tore down a building in his old age blind, lottsa cool stuff happens. :)
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,310
7/19/01 10:56:23 AM
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At least you believe that
do you also believe that he healed the sick, raised Lazarus from the dead, turned water into wine, walked on water, etc?
When G_d is involved, lots of cool stuff happens. That is for sure.
If you don't think that Jesus is the Messiah, what do you believe him to be? A Prophet? A Teacher (Rabi, as he was called by some of his followers)? Another person like Moses or Elijah? Jesus claimed to have died for our sins, so they can be forgiven. Do you believe that as well?
| "I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!" | Moe Howard |
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Post #2,322
7/19/01 12:31:14 PM
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like elijah and moses
Custer died for your sins also :)
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,330
7/19/01 1:43:03 PM
7/19/01 1:48:54 PM
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Huh?
Moses never died
Deuteronomy 34:4-6
Then the LORD said to him, "This is the land I promised on oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob when I said, `I will give it to your descendants.' I have let you see it with your eyes, but you will not cross over into it." And Moses the servant of the LORD died there in Moab, as the LORD had said. He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is.
FWIW, Samson was blind, but still young, when he died
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #2,348
7/19/01 2:55:00 PM
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my bad I was thinking of Elijah and assumed moses
check yer refs bill.
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,363
7/19/01 4:35:46 PM
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In the NT, Jesus spoke with both of them
I think that somehow they came back to give Jesus advice. Moses and Elijah appeared to speak with Jesus. Anyone got a reference to that?
| "I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!" | Moe Howard |
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Post #2,367
7/19/01 4:51:12 PM
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Re: In the NT, Jesus spoke with both of them
Matthew 17
1 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves.
2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.
3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
Mark 9
2 After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them.
3 His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them.
4 And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #2,369
7/19/01 5:04:51 PM
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Conference call with Moses and Elijah
Now Moses and Elijah don't just come down and talk to anyone. Jesus has to be very special just to be able to talk to them both.
Thanks for the ref.
| "I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!" | Moe Howard |
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Post #2,399
7/19/01 9:27:30 PM
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Uh. Right.
And that takes us back to my C. S. Lewis quote. Jesus claimed to be the Son of God: is He your Lord, a Liar or a Lunatic?
Wade.
"All around me are nothing but fakes
Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
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Post #2,408
7/19/01 11:24:49 PM
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The Brothers Karamazov covers aspects of this too... :-)
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Post #2,437
7/20/01 10:39:34 AM
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question
take out the magic, miracles and accusations by the pharisee's what was the mans message? What did he advocate by his words and actions. Dont forget money changers and the temple.
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,439
7/20/01 10:48:59 AM
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Re: question
take out the magic, miracles, what was Moses' message?
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
|
Post #2,452
7/20/01 11:35:54 AM
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the law that G_d handed down
here is how I want you to live. 10 commandments 613 laws.
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,471
7/20/01 1:37:42 PM
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Also don't forget
"Let my people go!" :)
The message was that G_d takes care of his people, and he wants them to obey the laws and 10 commandments so that they will be a moral people. If enslaved, G_d will send someone to free them. As in Moses, who freed his people and then went looking for a new place to settle down.
| "I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!" | Moe Howard |
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Post #2,474
7/20/01 2:03:05 PM
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not new but went back home -m
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,491
7/20/01 4:18:30 PM
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Went back home
but wandered for 40 years, right?
| "I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!" | Moe Howard |
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Post #2,504
7/20/01 7:16:04 PM
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Sorry
God speaking to man and dictating or writing laws would fall under the 'miracle' category.
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #2,506
7/20/01 9:15:07 PM
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Amen to that! :)
Alex
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Post #2,520
7/20/01 10:54:06 PM
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kinda sorta this is what I was looking for
what I was looking for was
The beatitudes.
The widow and her mite
The landowner who invited the homeless to the party
the prodical child
kicking the shit out of the moneylenders at the temple (and I always love a solemn sermon on that subject right before the money basket comes around)
knowing he is going to be ratted out by Judas and treating him the best.
Hanging around with IRS workers bar owners and ex hookers while snotting on the snotty
Taking what he needs and sharing with his crew what is offered.
Feeds and feels responsible for those who show up to hear him.
Understands the fears a man will go thru and make allowances for it. (If Peter had not been told that he would chicken out 3 times before dawn would Peters shame have inspired him to such greatness?
My point is if you focus on the message rather than the Pundits later you get a simple man with a simple message to be human as well as a Jew and something I would like to aspire to in my life. He was my definition of a MAN.
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,531
7/21/01 1:15:03 AM
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Good advice for anyone IMO
My point is if you focus on the message rather than the Pundits later you get a simple man with a simple message to be human as well as a Jew and something I would like to aspire to in my life. He was my definition of a MAN
VERY well said :-)
-----
Steve
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Post #2,537
7/21/01 2:15:28 AM
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That's the problem
what I was looking for was
That's what *you* are looking for, in Jesus, to say he was a great man. The problem is, that's not all he said. He also said things like
"Destroy this temple and I will rebuild it in three days"
"Eat my body and drink my blood in my memory"
"I and the Father are one"
and claimed
to forgive sins against God
to have lived before Abraham
to be the one fortold by the prohpets
to be the Messiah and the King of the Jews
You can't just pick and choose amongst what he did for what you like and say "that's how I judge him as a great man" because all you've really shown is what matters to you, not what he was about. This applies to anyone; whether you judge Nixon as a corrupt crook or a great statesman says as much about you and what you value as it does about who Nixon actually was. If you only take a small portion of Jesus teaching and based on those selective parts, you judge him a great man, you've only revealed your own values and actually done him a disservice but not judging him based on *eveything* he said and did.
You look at the things he did and said and you want to admire him for doing and saying those things, but it's not that easy because he also did and said a lot of things that are not things you admire, so you select what you want to pay attention to and brush aside or ignore the rest. It's not that simple
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
|
Post #2,574
7/21/01 9:32:12 PM
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must have missed something
"Destroy this temple and I will rebuild it in three days" he stated that
could you provide the verse please?
"Eat my body and drink my blood in my memory" definitely not kosher, any chance he knew he was for the highjump and using allegory, not for the first time to have his followers remember/think about him at dinner time? There is a group I sometimes get together with every few years where the first drink is always dedicated to fallen comrades, it is the same thing. (OT)It was passover so why do Christians celebrate with crackers and grape juice every Sunday instead of just at easter (passover)?
"I and the Father are one" nothing new there I and my G_d are one also, he is either referencing the kabbala metaphysics of the Jews, the mormon version of heaven or the bhuddist This is not a new concept, only the mainstream Christians dont have this as part of their religion.
to be the one fortold by the prophets and to be the Messiah and the King of the Jews
well I dont recall him saying that only not denying that. If he was both all he had to do when he visited the temple was to touch the ark and live. He did not or there is no record of that so since all of the prophecies have not come to pass either he was not the messiah or he is doing this in 2 parts as you have suggested earlier. If that is the case we are waiting for the same being so peace brother.
Just in a side note I am in no way questioning your belief or trying to persuede anyone against christianity, just discussing why I cant share that.
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,581
7/22/01 12:59:34 PM
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Some links.
John 2:13-25 - [link|http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=JOHN+2&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=off&showxref=on|[link|http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=JOHN+2|http://bible.gospel...ssage=JOHN+2]&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=off&showxref=on]
It's in the driving out of the moneychangers story you like. :-)
A slightly differently worded version is in Mark 14:57-59 and Matthew 26:60-62.
The trouble with statements like this is that you can't know what was authentic and what was added by later writers to attempt to draw parallels to OT writings, etc.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #2,594
7/22/01 7:44:10 PM
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I see he was foretelling his resurection
and comparing his body with the temple. Comparing the body as the temple of G_d is an old concept. Resurection in 3 days was the new concept. Which incedentally is why a lot of older devout Jews dont like parts removed, they want all their stuff when the bodily resurection takes place. Going around without a liver due to an organ transplant would be inconvenient.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
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Post #2,540
7/21/01 2:34:27 AM
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Answer.
take out the magic, miracles and accusations by the pharisee's what was the mans message? What did he advocate by his words and actions. Dont forget money changers and the temple. Jesus advocated personal repentance and offered divine forgiveness and eternal life in heaven through His sacrifice and resurrection. It is freely available to everyone, but the price for each who accept is that we must acknowledge Him as the highest authority in our lives. Jesus did not perform magic, and you can put the miracles aside; Jesus Himself said that even given a sign, people will still not believe. You can put the the Pharisees' accusations aside; are part of the basic story, though not His message. However, you cannot put aside His claim of God: They are central to His message. Either He is God and Messiah, or he was a Liar of the highest calibre, or he was a Lunatic and utterly mad. Just a great moral teacher? That doesn't work. Wade. "All around me are nothing but fakes
Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
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Post #2,196
7/18/01 11:11:35 AM
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Nope
Just another example of God preserving you guys in spite of yourself rather than because of yourself :)
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
|
Post #2,202
7/18/01 11:54:34 AM
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Well, that's the general human condition
When I think back on all the stupid things I've done, the fact that I have survived this long is nothing short of miraculous. And I was a relatively prudent goody two-shoes.
I don't know your history. But of the people I do know, few are alive as a result of good judgement.
White guys in suits know best
- Pat McCurdy
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Post #2,204
7/18/01 12:00:23 PM
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Trivial
Surviving bad judgement is just life
Surviving systematic attempts to kill you and surviving by profound skill is just a more interesting life
Surviving systematic attempts to kill you and your own suicidal tendenacies is miraculous
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
|
Post #2,206
7/18/01 12:37:36 PM
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hey Im a miracle!
can I have my ones and zeros back?
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Post #2,248
7/18/01 4:45:30 PM
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So am I then.
Somehow G_d has allowed me to survive this far, despite all that has happened to me. Despite my own depression that has been trying to cause my own self-desctruction, G_d does not want me to die just yet. If he did want me to die, I'd be dead already, wouldn't I? G_d's will, not my own.
I've done mostly clean living, except for a few dark-times of my life that I was a lost sheep during my teen-age years and early college years that I wasn't sure if G_d existed or not. I drank booze, I smoke cigars and ciagrettes. But somehow I knew I had to quit all that, and change. I no longer smoke or drink, I was able to quit. I started believing in G_d again.
| "I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!" | Moe Howard |
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Post #2,279
7/18/01 10:42:52 PM
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Then in truth
You have about as much confirmation as anyone ever gets (despite the millions of words claiming details you cannot ever 'verify' for yourself, nohow).
Besides (in the words of those choosing other approaches to unAnswerable questions) - whatever you earnestly and consistently desire, you will get. Often summarized, "be careful of what you wish for because.."
(Now if you imagine that 'confirmation' shall come from outside of yourself -?- I know of no words of any Sage as might help)
There ain't no MAN Life [cr], just - MAN 'life'-by-men [cr]
(translation from the *nix, by Anonymous)
Some stuff you can only do for/by yourself.
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Post #2,314
7/19/01 11:05:06 AM
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I get what life and G_d gives me
Besides (in the words of those choosing other approaches to unAnswerable questions) - whatever you earnestly and consistently desire, you will get. Often summarized, "be careful of what you wish for because.." I wish for world peace, but it never happens. We don't always get what we want, and have to settle for what life or G_d gives us. Somewhere down the path of like, G_d had decided that I would become a programmer and develop in Microsoft technology, it was also decided that I would suffer from a great mental depression that will limit my abilities and at times drive me to almost self-destruction. I desire not to suffer from this, but such is life for me to suffer. It shows that I am not in control, nor do I always get what I want. People also take advantage of my good nature, and I can help others but it seems like I cannot help myself or I have a hard time trying to help myself. But things can change, you never know what the future will throw at you. | "I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!" | Moe Howard |
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Post #2,237
7/18/01 3:35:53 PM
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Heh.. nicely put :-\ufffd
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Post #1,896
7/16/01 8:59:47 AM
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Re: that part was always hard to figure
I am not even sure he was a Jew since he denied being one later in life
Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they Abraham's descendants? So am I. -2 Corinthians 11:22
If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless. - Philipians 3:4-6
He spent an awful lot of time putting down sex between man and woman
I don't recall him ever speaking negatively about sex between a husband and wife
but I dont see the same stress on sex with same gender
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Romans 1:26-27
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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