You're usually better with facts than this

Post #177,188 by ben_tilly 9/30/04 1:32:06 PM Reply	You're usually better with facts than this I corrected Brenda on what the President was doing, and that suddenly becomes me drinking the kool-aid? WTF? My reference to that film is as the only place where she's likely to have actually seen what Bush was and wasn't doing. I said nothing about what he should have done. Merely what he did do. But for the record, when I heard that the first plane hit, I thought it was an accident. Until I saw how big it was, then I just sat in shock. When I heard about the second one I knew it was deliberate. Had I been in the President's position, I probably would have not reacted to the first. To the second my response would have been to say, "Pardon me, but something important just came up, I have to attend to this" and I'd have walked out. I'm not saying that that is what should have happened, but it would have been my response. And to set Brenda's mind at rest, I believe that nobody present would have been scared to witness that - after all the President has a lot of important business to attend to that most of us are blissfully unaware of. And the class already knew that something important happened - after all an aide just came in and whispered in the President's ear. Incidentally to set Bill's mind at rest, a well-known principle in chess says to deal with the immediate threat before the important one if possible. If you're about to lose a pawn right now, and checkmate is threatened in 2 moves, save the pawn and defend against checkmate next move. It is possible that a man who was used to making important decisions under pressure could have internalized this advice enough to instinctively do it even in a crisis. I don't happen to believe that this kind of thinking was the cause of Bush's actions, but you don't see me condemning Bush for this item either. (Note: No matter how much I dislike people, I try to treat them fairly.) Cheers, Ben About the use of language: it is impossible to sharpen a pencil with a blunt axe. It is equally vain to try to do it with ten blunt axes instead. -- Edsger W. Dijkstra
Post #177,191 by Nightowl 9/30/04 1:39:29 PM Reply	Actually, I saw it on regular TV They aired footage or something of him being with the kids. I never saw the movie, and don't intend to. But for the record, when I heard that the first plane hit, I thought it was an accident. Until I saw how big it was, then I just sat in shock. When I heard about the second one I knew it was deliberate. Had I been in the President's position, I probably would have not reacted to the first. To the second my response would have been to say, "Pardon me, but something important just came up, I have to attend to this" and I'd have walked out. I'm not saying that that is what should have happened, but it would have been my response. And I agree, if he had said something like you and Peter stated, no one would have been unduly scared. I can't remember what he actually did say, does anyone remember that? Incidentally to set Bill's mind at rest, a well-known principle in chess says to deal with the immediate threat before the important one if possible. If you're about to lose a pawn right now, and checkmate is threatened in 2 moves, save the pawn and defend against checkmate next move. It is possible that a man who was used to making important decisions under pressure could have internalized this advice enough to instinctively do it even in a crisis. I don't happen to believe that this kind of thinking was the cause of Bush's actions, but you don't see me condemning Bush for this item either. (Note: No matter how much I dislike people, I try to treat them fairly.) I'm trying to apply this statement to the situation. Was the WTC the pawn? Can you help me get this, it sounds fascinating. Brenda "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
Post #177,203 by ben_tilly 9/30/04 2:40:02 PM Reply	Just when I think that you cannot flabbergast me again... I'm trying to apply this statement to the situation. Was the WTC the pawn? Can you help me get this, it sounds fascinating. Here's a subtle cue. In chess a pawn is the least important piece on the board. Checkmate is the end of the game. The rule is that if you are able to deal with both, you tackle the immediate before the important. Now given the WTC versus a photo op that Bush is actually at, which do you think is immediate and which is important? If you're having trouble, you can think about which is more immediate instead. Remembering that that which is directly in front of you is likely to be more immediate than that which is hundreds of miles away. Regards, Ben About the use of language: it is impossible to sharpen a pencil with a blunt axe. It is equally vain to try to do it with ten blunt axes instead. -- Edsger W. Dijkstra
Post #177,222 by Nightowl 9/30/04 3:30:25 PM 10/1/04 12:23:59 PM Reply	Ben, did I get it right? (read all the way to the bottom) Oh I'm always going to surprise you, probably Here's a subtle cue. In chess a pawn is the least important piece on the board. Checkmate is the end of the game. The rule is that if you are able to deal with both, you tackle the immediate before the important. Well, the reason I'm flabbergasted I guess, is you said go save the pawn, but if the pawn wasn't the thing he was able to save ... so I thought maybe the white house or pentagon would be the pawn to save... Now given the WTC versus a photo op that Bush is actually at, which do you think is immediate and which is important? If you're having trouble, you can think about which is more immediate instead. Remembering that that which is directly in front of you is likely to be more immediate than that which is hundreds of miles away. Well the photo op was more immediate, I'm guessing, because it was closer and right there, but the WTC would be more important. Hmm chess always confused me even though I love the game... are you saying then that the pawn was "finish the job at hand" which was the kids reading and then go after the WTC issue next? I'm trying Ben, honest... As an aside, I've always been a fairly good chess player up till I have to finish the job, or make check or checkmate.. then I somehow seem to falter in what I'm doing. But I still love the game. Edit: After more thought, I'm pretty sure that's what you mean, Ben. That the kids were something he could finish dealing with, and that the WTC wasn't going to be any more or less damaged if he left ten minutes earlier. So that would make the kids the pawn, and the WTC the checkmate issue. Is that what you were saying? Did I get it right? After all, what was he going to be able to do to save the WTC? There wasn't anything he could do, and in the end, there wasn't much anyone could do to save it. I think the thing that confused me much was "save the pawn" and then I was thinking of the pawn being the WTC and the checkmate being something more important, like the white house... now I see I wasn't thinking along the right line there. Nightowl >8# Edit: changed subject "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown). Edited by Nightowl Sept. 30, 2004, 08:41:34 PM EDT Edited by Nightowl Oct. 1, 2004, 12:23:59 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #177,339 by ben_tilly 10/1/04 12:40:02 PM Reply	Yes About the use of language: it is impossible to sharpen a pencil with a blunt axe. It is equally vain to try to do it with ten blunt axes instead. -- Edsger W. Dijkstra
Post #177,344 by Nightowl 10/1/04 12:47:06 PM Reply	Allright! Thanks so much for answering, I thought about it trying to get it right, for a long time. :) Brenda "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
Post #177,368 by ben_tilly 10/1/04 2:58:22 PM Reply	Don't consider it an accomplishment - I expected more About the use of language: it is impossible to sharpen a pencil with a blunt axe. It is equally vain to try to do it with ten blunt axes instead. -- Edsger W. Dijkstra
Post #177,433 by Nightowl 10/1/04 8:58:53 PM Reply	Well I do anyway Because chess for me has always been confusing, and anytime I get the chess concept somewhere whether it be the game or a scenario, I'm happy. I really got confused because you said "save the pawn" and I didn't think of the children as a thing to save. But once I started thinking of save as do the job, I got it. Brenda "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
Post #177,214 by bepatient 9/30/04 2:57:20 PM 9/30/04 3:01:58 PM Reply	7 minutes. 9 tops. Lots and lots of Monday morning quarterbacking about 7 minutes. He should've done cartwheels out of the office! He should've know after the first crash! (which is probably accurate and heads should've rolled at FAA) (and even though reports had it as a small craft crash at first...I was listening live at that time) 7 minutes. Boy, we could've caught Bin Laden red handed if he would have got out in 3 instead of 7. And I retract the kool-aid statement. You were there and terribly close. For us listening on radio, it was not apparent until the second plane. I sat in my car for the same 7 minutes...mine realizing just what had occurred, grieving for those I knew to be dead and structuing what I was going to have to do in the next several hours to guard the safety of the company travelers that I was responsible for. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient] Edited by bepatient Sept. 30, 2004, 03:01:58 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #177,216 by hnick 9/30/04 2:59:55 PM Reply	Would have made a difference when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor...
Post #177,217 by bepatient 9/30/04 3:02:53 PM Reply	Um. Ok. Thems some impressive u-boats ;-) If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #177,221 by hnick 9/30/04 3:12:22 PM Reply	I'm just lazy I assumed that the antiphonal "Never mind, he's on a roll" would be inferred. Animal House reference? Never mind...
Post #177,218 by ChrisR 9/30/04 3:04:54 PM Reply	7 minutes... More than enuf time... ...to start planning for the overthrow of Saddam as the proper response.
Post #177,219 by bepatient 9/30/04 3:05:58 PM Reply	Maybe thats what he was thinking. Oh wait, if we listen to the critics he is incapable of thought. Never mind. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #177,224 by ben_tilly 9/30/04 3:42:53 PM Reply	Why are you complaining to me? I said what I would do. I also made it clear that I'm not criticizing Bush for having done something different. So why am I getting criticism from you on this? And how was I close to the kool-aid in your opinion? And yes, I was closer than you, a lot closer. The people sorting body parts relaxed in the same lounge that I did. That's plenty close for me. Ben About the use of language: it is impossible to sharpen a pencil with a blunt axe. It is equally vain to try to do it with ten blunt axes instead. -- Edsger W. Dijkstra
Post #177,266 by bepatient 9/30/04 10:52:57 PM Reply	Apologies. That entire line of questioning just annoys me...sorry. Moore's koolaid, in my opinion, is the only reason anyone even wonders about those 7 minutes. You feel differently, respected. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #177,278 by Nightowl 9/30/04 11:20:08 PM Reply	That's odd Moore's koolaid, in my opinion, is the only reason anyone even wonders about those 7 minutes. You feel differently, respected. I wondered about them the day it happened and it was aired on TV. I guess the movie must question it more intensely then, because I never worried about them, just wondered about them, and I never saw the movie, nor will I. Ah well, we can't get the 7 minutes back so we move forward. :) Nightowl >8# "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).

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