After plane #2.

Post #177,173 by bepatient 9/30/04 12:29:57 PM Reply	After plane #2. Seven minutes. See Ben has tasted the kool-aid too. He should have been doing wind sprints as soon as that man whispered in his ear. Thats what Mike would do. And we all wanna be like Mike. Anything else is simply uncivilized. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #177,174 by Nightowl 9/30/04 12:39:29 PM 9/30/04 12:42:08 PM Reply	Thanks for reminding me I agree, he should have left right away, but I also think that might have scared the kids more, unless they could have made an excuse that wouldn't have scared them... like something simple, "Sorry, the President is urgently needed elsewhere." or something, but surely not telling those kids about the planes. Even the word urgently might have scared them, I don't know. maybe they were all so thrown into chaos they didn't know what the best move was? Hindsight is always 20/20. Anyway, thanks for the info, like I said, I used to have it all memorized. Brenda Nightowl >8# Edit: P.S. And if by tasting the koolaid you mean he saw Farhenheit 9/11, I haven't, because I didn't see it. "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown). Edited by Nightowl Sept. 30, 2004, 12:42:08 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #177,176 by pwhysall 9/30/04 12:51:46 PM Reply	"Scared them"? eh? What's wrong with "Sorry, children, but something extremely important has come up and I have to leave right away."? Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #177,180 by Nightowl 9/30/04 12:57:08 PM Reply	Yeah, that's even better I was trying to think of something better like that, but words like urgent kept coming up. I'm not thinking very fast today, lots on my mind, sorry. :) That would have worked I think, just fine. Brenda "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
Post #177,183 by ben_tilly 9/30/04 1:06:49 PM Reply	Silly question for you You keep on being concerned about whether the kids got scared. How many of those kids do you think found out what happened anyways, and got scared despite Bush trying to protect them? Wondering, Ben About the use of language: it is impossible to sharpen a pencil with a blunt axe. It is equally vain to try to do it with ten blunt axes instead. -- Edsger W. Dijkstra
Post #177,184 by Nightowl 9/30/04 1:10:05 PM Reply	Not silly You keep on being concerned about whether the kids got scared. How many of those kids do you think found out what happened anyways, and got scared despite Bush trying to protect them? Wondering, Oh I'm sure all of them got scared. I just meant, that maybe they should be told in a better manner than he might have managed, maybe with the teachers there telling them, or even bringing their parents to the school to tell them. Otherwise he might have left a room full of panicked children with the teachers trying to handle it. Just my thoughts, that a parent might have been the better choice to explain it to their own child. Nightowl >8# "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
Post #177,190 by ben_tilly 9/30/04 1:37:21 PM Reply	If that really was Bush's reasoning Then I'd want him out of office even more than I do now. Pardon me for pointing out the obvious, but nobody whose sense of perspective is that out of whack should be making life and death decisions for a country. But then again anybody who is unable to find a stock excuse for leaving a room would fail miserably in politics. Regards, Ben About the use of language: it is impossible to sharpen a pencil with a blunt axe. It is equally vain to try to do it with ten blunt axes instead. -- Edsger W. Dijkstra
Post #177,225 by Arkadiy 9/30/04 3:43:59 PM Reply	No, the person who should be leading the country is someone like mmoffitt, who repeatedly stated that the current crop of "Western Civilization" is worthless and should be promptly sacrificed. Not a guy who is suspect of thinking about a roomful of children. -- ... a reference to Presidente Arbusto. -- [link\|http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001417.html\|Geoffrey K. Pullum]
Post #177,227 by jake123 9/30/04 3:49:57 PM Reply	Not to put too fine a point on it I think he should have headed out immediately. Considering the scale of what was happening, and the very real ways he could have cut it short without freaking them out, he should have gotten to work. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #177,242 by mmoffitt 9/30/04 6:00:20 PM Reply	Not "worthless", just unfairly distributed ;-p bcnu, Mikem "The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism." -Ted Grant
Post #177,194 by pwhysall 9/30/04 1:50:29 PM Reply	Why are you so concerned about this? Seems ridiculous to me. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #177,195 by Nightowl 9/30/04 1:54:19 PM Reply	Not really sure But maybe it's because I, as an adult, was scared more than I can imagine by the events of 9/11 so maybe I figure the kids would have been scared even more than that... It's not so much of a concern, as we were speculating why Bush waited 7 minutes before leaving, and I guessed maybe it was to not upset the kids routine and scare them. I don't know, maybe he even used that 7 minutes to think and wasn't really listening to the kids by that point? Nightowl >8# "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
Post #177,196 by jake123 9/30/04 2:00:49 PM Reply	Strange I wasn't particularly scared by the WTC stuff. Pissed off, yes, but not scared. 'Course, if I'd been in the immediate environs, that would've been different. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #177,200 by Nightowl 9/30/04 2:11:29 PM Reply	Well, it was mostly the imagery How to explain this... First of all, I have Panic Anxiety, which tends to exaggerate fears even though I work hard at preventing it. also, the imagery is what does it. I see the image of the plane hitting the building, and I saw it all day and for weeks. I then have this image stuck in my head, along with maybe whatever others, such as the building collapsing. So then the plane becomes the fear, so every time I hear a plane, I jump, and then when I go to bed I "see a plane" crashing into my house. It took a long time, but I got past it. This is a reason I don't see movies with vivid imagery or unexpected scenes that make you jump, (for example, horror movies or thriller ones), and why I watch CSI in the daytime with John describing in a play by play the parts I absolutely can not watch. Hope that helps explain it. Brenda "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
Post #177,204 by ben_tilly 9/30/04 2:41:38 PM Reply	How about if you thought that they might try to target you? The zig-zag path that Bush took through the rest of the day indicates that he was at least somewhat concerned about personal risk. Cheers, Ben About the use of language: it is impossible to sharpen a pencil with a blunt axe. It is equally vain to try to do it with ten blunt axes instead. -- Edsger W. Dijkstra
Post #177,210 by jake123 9/30/04 2:52:33 PM Reply	Wasn't talking about Bush was talking about Owl. For Bush to be concerned about that strikes me as completely reasonable. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #177,188 by ben_tilly 9/30/04 1:32:06 PM Reply	You're usually better with facts than this I corrected Brenda on what the President was doing, and that suddenly becomes me drinking the kool-aid? WTF? My reference to that film is as the only place where she's likely to have actually seen what Bush was and wasn't doing. I said nothing about what he should have done. Merely what he did do. But for the record, when I heard that the first plane hit, I thought it was an accident. Until I saw how big it was, then I just sat in shock. When I heard about the second one I knew it was deliberate. Had I been in the President's position, I probably would have not reacted to the first. To the second my response would have been to say, "Pardon me, but something important just came up, I have to attend to this" and I'd have walked out. I'm not saying that that is what should have happened, but it would have been my response. And to set Brenda's mind at rest, I believe that nobody present would have been scared to witness that - after all the President has a lot of important business to attend to that most of us are blissfully unaware of. And the class already knew that something important happened - after all an aide just came in and whispered in the President's ear. Incidentally to set Bill's mind at rest, a well-known principle in chess says to deal with the immediate threat before the important one if possible. If you're about to lose a pawn right now, and checkmate is threatened in 2 moves, save the pawn and defend against checkmate next move. It is possible that a man who was used to making important decisions under pressure could have internalized this advice enough to instinctively do it even in a crisis. I don't happen to believe that this kind of thinking was the cause of Bush's actions, but you don't see me condemning Bush for this item either. (Note: No matter how much I dislike people, I try to treat them fairly.) Cheers, Ben About the use of language: it is impossible to sharpen a pencil with a blunt axe. It is equally vain to try to do it with ten blunt axes instead. -- Edsger W. Dijkstra
Post #177,191 by Nightowl 9/30/04 1:39:29 PM Reply	Actually, I saw it on regular TV They aired footage or something of him being with the kids. I never saw the movie, and don't intend to. But for the record, when I heard that the first plane hit, I thought it was an accident. Until I saw how big it was, then I just sat in shock. When I heard about the second one I knew it was deliberate. Had I been in the President's position, I probably would have not reacted to the first. To the second my response would have been to say, "Pardon me, but something important just came up, I have to attend to this" and I'd have walked out. I'm not saying that that is what should have happened, but it would have been my response. And I agree, if he had said something like you and Peter stated, no one would have been unduly scared. I can't remember what he actually did say, does anyone remember that? Incidentally to set Bill's mind at rest, a well-known principle in chess says to deal with the immediate threat before the important one if possible. If you're about to lose a pawn right now, and checkmate is threatened in 2 moves, save the pawn and defend against checkmate next move. It is possible that a man who was used to making important decisions under pressure could have internalized this advice enough to instinctively do it even in a crisis. I don't happen to believe that this kind of thinking was the cause of Bush's actions, but you don't see me condemning Bush for this item either. (Note: No matter how much I dislike people, I try to treat them fairly.) I'm trying to apply this statement to the situation. Was the WTC the pawn? Can you help me get this, it sounds fascinating. Brenda "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
Post #177,203 by ben_tilly 9/30/04 2:40:02 PM Reply	Just when I think that you cannot flabbergast me again... I'm trying to apply this statement to the situation. Was the WTC the pawn? Can you help me get this, it sounds fascinating. Here's a subtle cue. In chess a pawn is the least important piece on the board. Checkmate is the end of the game. The rule is that if you are able to deal with both, you tackle the immediate before the important. Now given the WTC versus a photo op that Bush is actually at, which do you think is immediate and which is important? If you're having trouble, you can think about which is more immediate instead. Remembering that that which is directly in front of you is likely to be more immediate than that which is hundreds of miles away. Regards, Ben About the use of language: it is impossible to sharpen a pencil with a blunt axe. It is equally vain to try to do it with ten blunt axes instead. -- Edsger W. Dijkstra
Post #177,222 by Nightowl 9/30/04 3:30:25 PM 10/1/04 12:23:59 PM Reply	Ben, did I get it right? (read all the way to the bottom) Oh I'm always going to surprise you, probably Here's a subtle cue. In chess a pawn is the least important piece on the board. Checkmate is the end of the game. The rule is that if you are able to deal with both, you tackle the immediate before the important. Well, the reason I'm flabbergasted I guess, is you said go save the pawn, but if the pawn wasn't the thing he was able to save ... so I thought maybe the white house or pentagon would be the pawn to save... Now given the WTC versus a photo op that Bush is actually at, which do you think is immediate and which is important? If you're having trouble, you can think about which is more immediate instead. Remembering that that which is directly in front of you is likely to be more immediate than that which is hundreds of miles away. Well the photo op was more immediate, I'm guessing, because it was closer and right there, but the WTC would be more important. Hmm chess always confused me even though I love the game... are you saying then that the pawn was "finish the job at hand" which was the kids reading and then go after the WTC issue next? I'm trying Ben, honest... As an aside, I've always been a fairly good chess player up till I have to finish the job, or make check or checkmate.. then I somehow seem to falter in what I'm doing. But I still love the game. Edit: After more thought, I'm pretty sure that's what you mean, Ben. That the kids were something he could finish dealing with, and that the WTC wasn't going to be any more or less damaged if he left ten minutes earlier. So that would make the kids the pawn, and the WTC the checkmate issue. Is that what you were saying? Did I get it right? After all, what was he going to be able to do to save the WTC? There wasn't anything he could do, and in the end, there wasn't much anyone could do to save it. I think the thing that confused me much was "save the pawn" and then I was thinking of the pawn being the WTC and the checkmate being something more important, like the white house... now I see I wasn't thinking along the right line there. Nightowl >8# Edit: changed subject "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown). Edited by Nightowl Sept. 30, 2004, 08:41:34 PM EDT Edited by Nightowl Oct. 1, 2004, 12:23:59 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #177,339 by ben_tilly 10/1/04 12:40:02 PM Reply	Yes About the use of language: it is impossible to sharpen a pencil with a blunt axe. It is equally vain to try to do it with ten blunt axes instead. -- Edsger W. Dijkstra
Post #177,344 by Nightowl 10/1/04 12:47:06 PM Reply	Allright! Thanks so much for answering, I thought about it trying to get it right, for a long time. :) Brenda "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
Post #177,368 by ben_tilly 10/1/04 2:58:22 PM Reply	Don't consider it an accomplishment - I expected more About the use of language: it is impossible to sharpen a pencil with a blunt axe. It is equally vain to try to do it with ten blunt axes instead. -- Edsger W. Dijkstra
Post #177,433 by Nightowl 10/1/04 8:58:53 PM Reply	Well I do anyway Because chess for me has always been confusing, and anytime I get the chess concept somewhere whether it be the game or a scenario, I'm happy. I really got confused because you said "save the pawn" and I didn't think of the children as a thing to save. But once I started thinking of save as do the job, I got it. Brenda "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
Post #177,214 by bepatient 9/30/04 2:57:20 PM 9/30/04 3:01:58 PM Reply	7 minutes. 9 tops. Lots and lots of Monday morning quarterbacking about 7 minutes. He should've done cartwheels out of the office! He should've know after the first crash! (which is probably accurate and heads should've rolled at FAA) (and even though reports had it as a small craft crash at first...I was listening live at that time) 7 minutes. Boy, we could've caught Bin Laden red handed if he would have got out in 3 instead of 7. And I retract the kool-aid statement. You were there and terribly close. For us listening on radio, it was not apparent until the second plane. I sat in my car for the same 7 minutes...mine realizing just what had occurred, grieving for those I knew to be dead and structuing what I was going to have to do in the next several hours to guard the safety of the company travelers that I was responsible for. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient] Edited by bepatient Sept. 30, 2004, 03:01:58 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #177,216 by hnick 9/30/04 2:59:55 PM Reply	Would have made a difference when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor...
Post #177,217 by bepatient 9/30/04 3:02:53 PM Reply	Um. Ok. Thems some impressive u-boats ;-) If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #177,221 by hnick 9/30/04 3:12:22 PM Reply	I'm just lazy I assumed that the antiphonal "Never mind, he's on a roll" would be inferred. Animal House reference? Never mind...
Post #177,218 by ChrisR 9/30/04 3:04:54 PM Reply	7 minutes... More than enuf time... ...to start planning for the overthrow of Saddam as the proper response.
Post #177,219 by bepatient 9/30/04 3:05:58 PM Reply	Maybe thats what he was thinking. Oh wait, if we listen to the critics he is incapable of thought. Never mind. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #177,224 by ben_tilly 9/30/04 3:42:53 PM Reply	Why are you complaining to me? I said what I would do. I also made it clear that I'm not criticizing Bush for having done something different. So why am I getting criticism from you on this? And how was I close to the kool-aid in your opinion? And yes, I was closer than you, a lot closer. The people sorting body parts relaxed in the same lounge that I did. That's plenty close for me. Ben About the use of language: it is impossible to sharpen a pencil with a blunt axe. It is equally vain to try to do it with ten blunt axes instead. -- Edsger W. Dijkstra
Post #177,266 by bepatient 9/30/04 10:52:57 PM Reply	Apologies. That entire line of questioning just annoys me...sorry. Moore's koolaid, in my opinion, is the only reason anyone even wonders about those 7 minutes. You feel differently, respected. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #177,278 by Nightowl 9/30/04 11:20:08 PM Reply	That's odd Moore's koolaid, in my opinion, is the only reason anyone even wonders about those 7 minutes. You feel differently, respected. I wondered about them the day it happened and it was aired on TV. I guess the movie must question it more intensely then, because I never worried about them, just wondered about them, and I never saw the movie, nor will I. Ah well, we can't get the 7 minutes back so we move forward. :) Nightowl >8# "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).

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