Post #174,819
9/17/04 1:02:29 PM
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But religion bars any reason.
Without first getting a zealot to abandon his religion, (i.e. getting the lunatic to abandon what he holds most dear), you simply cannot get to any shared base from which to negogiate. Cannot, because at his core the zealot "believes" his god is superior to anything that happens on this planet. Moreover, he believes that his god is pleased by what he is doing. You have to break religion in such a person in order to even begin to reason with them. Religious conviction is impossible to subvert - even if it is a "corrupted religious conviction" - and there are sound arguments that Islamic fundamentalist terrorists are being truer to their religion than most "modern" believers, be they Christian, Jew or Muslim.
It is this last that drives me to the conclusion that it IS religion that is at the root of most (all?) evil.
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
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Post #174,822
9/17/04 1:31:17 PM
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Could substitute "politics" for "religion" there.
[link|http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/26450.html|Samuel Butler] in The Way of All Flesh: Then he saw also that it matters little what profession, whether of religion or irreligion, a man may make, provided only he follows it out with charitable inconsistency, and without insisting on it to the bitter end. It is in the uncompromisingness with which dogma is held and not in the dogma or want of dogma that the danger lies. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #174,823
9/17/04 1:49:24 PM
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Or anything else
It's not religion, politics, social issues, differences that are the root of evil.
It's the evil in the person that chooses those platforms to operate upon.
Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
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Post #174,832
9/17/04 3:28:07 PM
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"getting the lunatic to abandon what he holds most dear"
"religion bars any reason"
"it IS religion that is at the root of most (all?) evil"
Any belief that is used (by some subset of believers) to divide and deride a group of people that do not share said belief is suspect, in your view.
Right?
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #174,852
9/17/04 5:38:45 PM
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Any? Perhaps.
But none more lethal than religion. For it is religion alone that causes that subset to hold that they are more "God-like".
Why do they worship? Because they are praying to the One True God and, depending on the brand of mythology, those who do not should be condemned to everlasting hellfire or be killed in the human sense.
Compare and constrast the violence in all the religious texts from Mesopotamia with something like the Tao Te Ching. Those "sacred texts" coming from Mesopotamia - every one of them - contain passages that call for the extermination of the infidels and worse. (Try to find some analog in the Tao Te Ching)
So no, I don't hold that all religions are in and of themselves vile. But the Judeo-Christian-Muslim tri-fecta will kill you faster than crap runs through a goose.
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
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Post #174,853
9/17/04 5:44:20 PM
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Re: Any? Perhaps.
But none more lethal than religion. For it is religion alone that causes that subset to hold that they are more "God-like". Not true at all. Hitler believed he was God-Like and he wasn't praying to any Diety. He practically worshipped himself. Why do they worship? Because they are praying to the One True God and, depending on the brand of mythology, those who do not should be condemned to everlasting hellfire or be killed in the human sense. We don't feel anyone should be condemmed to hell. That's what is taught that God feels, but I don't know that all Christians/etc believe they really should be. Compare and constrast the violence in all the religious texts from Mesopotamia with something like the Tao Te Ching. Those "sacred texts" coming from Mesopotamia - every one of them - contain passages that call for the extermination of the infidels and worse. (Try to find some analog in the Tao Te Ching) Every violent act has not been religious. People hide behind religion to enact maniacal behavior, they cover themselves in God to pretend they are justified in their diabolical acts and they color their acts with faith to hide the fact that they are the only ones responsible for their actions. Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
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Post #174,858
9/17/04 5:55:25 PM
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If a Christian does not believe anyone should be condemned..
to hell, then that Christian is the type of Christian I spoke of earlier, the type of Christian that has rejected a part of the religious manual. In this case, the part that goes....
John 17:3 "This is Eternal Life, that they know Thee, the Only True God and Messiah Whom Thou has sent."
and the parts about only "those who believe" in Jesus being the only one's granted eternal life, entry into heaven, etc. ad nauseum.
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
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Post #174,859
9/17/04 6:01:41 PM
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There's a difference
Between a Christian being the only ones entitled to Eternal Life, and a Christian believing that people should burn in Hell. We accept that this is God's Will, but it isn't necessarily what we would have chosen for them.
Unfortunately, we don't control God, so all we can do is keep ourselves from landing there.
Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
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Post #174,866
9/17/04 6:24:47 PM
9/17/04 6:26:23 PM
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Uhhh, Owlsley...
Back up just a minute here... We don't feel anyone should be condemmed to hell. That's what is taught that God feels, but I don't know that all Christians/etc believe they really should be. We'll just pass on the myriad historical counter-examples for the time being, and focus on the abstract. Exactly what do you think excommunication is? It is the severing of the individual from the Church, and thereby damning him/her for now and ever after.... So, yes, I'd say that any devout religious devotee who believes in excommunication as a viable punishment for non-piety does indeed believe in condemnation. And you can be damn sure (pun intended) that those who hold what passes for power in a religious community damn well (again, pun intended) knows it, and can and will wield it as a cudgel when it suits his (and it's always 'his') fancy. [Edit: typos, of course...] jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
Edited by jb4
Sept. 17, 2004, 06:26:23 PM EDT
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Post #174,867
9/17/04 6:31:19 PM
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Let me clarify
We don't feel anyone should be condemmed to hell. That's what is taught that God feels, but I don't know that all Christians/etc believe they really should be.
The above statement refers to Christian religion, I don't mean ALL Christians, I mean the Christian Church. What other denominations feel I don't know. As I said before, we accept that this is God's choice to send them to Hell, but that doesn't mean we would have made that choice, it's God's will, not ours. We'll just pass on the myriad historical counter-examples for tyhe time being, and focus on the abstract. Exactly what do you think excommunication is? It is the severing of the individual from the Church, and thereby damning him/her for now and ever after.... Excommunication from the church is Catholic (as far as I know), and I have no idea what Catholics all do, but I don't believe they should ever be barred from the church. Maybe barred from working with children if they molested someone, but not from the church. And I don't believe that they shouldn't be allowed communion. However, I'm not a Catholic, so it doesn't matter what I think. So, yes, I'd say that any devout religious devotee who believes in excommunication as a viable punishment for non-piety does indeed believe in condemnation. And you can be damn sure (pun intended) that those who hold what passes for power in a religious community damn well (again, pun intended) knows it, and can ande will wield it as a cudgel when it suits his (and it's always 'his') fancy. I'm saying, not me. And my church has never banned anyone from attending or being there. Only exception wasn't even in our power, it was when the youth leader was found to be the head of the KKK and was involved in a crime. They fired him, but we didn't forbid him to attend, just to lead. However, he went to jail, so it he wasn't given a choice either. I wish no one had to go to Hell, I wish God could find other solutions, but since I choose to believe in Him, I am obligated to accept His will, however mystifying or confusing it might be. Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
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Post #174,871
9/17/04 6:50:19 PM
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Re: Let me clarify
I don't mean ALL Christians, I mean the Christian Church. What other denominations feel I don't know. Well, lemeesee: We gotcher Catholick Church 'ere, then we gocher Lutherans, then the Episcopalians, and the Methodists over dere, and...Sumbuddy said sumpin' about YOUnitarians, and, oh yeah...dere's them-thar PresBeeTarians, and...Damn! Almost fergot 'bout them Baptists..... So tell me, Ms. Owlsley, which Christian church from the above list are you referring to -- or are you refering to any number of other Christian Churches that I negelected to mention (the Greek Orthodox Churches are Quite ornate, I am to understand...) ;-\ufffd Excommunication from the church is Catholic (as far as I know) Yes, and Lutheran, too, and a number of other Protestant sects also practice it. As do the Mormons (You know, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints). And you certainly can get yerself run out of the Temple of your choice by the local Rabbi. (IIRC Rabbi Jesus of Nazareth did just such a thing on one memorable day....) A good test would be to propose the Christian Church in question sanctify same-sex marriages in Jesus's name, and see what the half-life of your soul in the eyes of said Church would be.... I wish no one had to go to Hell, I wish God could find other solutions, but since I choose to believe in Him, I am obligated to accept His will, however mystifying or confusing it might be. Or you could practice a religion where such rubbish is not taught. Buddahism might be a good place to start.... jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #174,904
9/18/04 3:36:25 AM
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Not forgetting...
...the tongue-speaking, snake-handling, baptising-in-the-spirit, hellfire-and-brimstone deliverance ministry of Pentecostalism.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #175,183
9/20/04 12:49:49 PM
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How could I forget...!
Get thee to the Tent!
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #174,931
9/18/04 9:56:23 AM
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Unfortunately (new thread)
Created as new thread #174930 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=174930|Unfortunately]
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
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Post #174,880
9/17/04 7:38:14 PM
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On Christian churches... (new thread)
Created as new thread #174879 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=174879|On Christian churches...]
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Post #174,861
9/17/04 6:06:15 PM
9/17/04 6:07:13 PM
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You sure?
For it is religion alone that causes that subset to hold that they are more "God-like". Hmmm. It's the religion that causes this, right? It's not that some people are simply self-righteous by nature and believe that thier own beliefs are necessarily superior to those of others? I assume that by eliminating religion from a socio-political system, that atrocities on biblical scale don't happen - that the flawed human psyche doesn't simply use other ideology as an excuse for atrocity? Or is it, perhaps, that by assigning blame for human horrors on 'religion' (or capitalism, etc, etc), that you are simply avoiding human responsibility?
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
Edited by imric
Sept. 17, 2004, 06:07:13 PM EDT
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Post #174,864
9/17/04 6:10:46 PM
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Very well stated
I said as much about Hitler in another post, he believed himself to be Godlike and was better than even God. He wasn't on a religious quest, his was personal and his desire.
Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
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Post #174,876
9/17/04 7:32:14 PM
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I am condemning that which nurtures...
the notion that one set of humans is better than any other. And nothing, absolutely nothing does that more effectively than religion.
I believe it is obvious to even the most casual observer that religion more strongly inculcates that notion of superiority than any other thing one human can 'believe' in. And once the "religious experience" leads one to believe in that special superiority that comes from "knowing the One True God" it is a very difficult, nigh on impossible, notion to shake.
And, to my earlier point, no person in possession of a superiority complex would ever deign to negogiate with one of the "lessor" humans.
Sorry, but history is on my side. Greater harm to mankind has been done "in the name of God" than in the name of anything else.
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
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Post #174,883
9/17/04 8:01:23 PM
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"History is on my side"
How... evocative!
And yet - you haven't answered my questions about your belief that it is religion that "inculates superiority" and how you blame religion instead of our own flawed human nature. You have shown no reasoning that a 'superiority complex' is caused/inculated by religion. No link between cause and effect that isn't filled just as admirably by 'ideology'.
Neither do you bother to respond to recent history and the fact that some of the greatest horrors to strike humanity were performed by humans that WEREN'T religiously motivated - or were Stalin, Hitler, et al following the Bible/Koran/Torah without telling anyone? Perhaps WWI was some sort of mesopotamian crusade? How about the US Civil War?
Believe what you like. Hide from human nature. I can see that you are not discussing, but rather preaching your 'superior' ideology.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #174,888
9/17/04 8:18:35 PM
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Alexander of Macedonia,
the inventor of biological warfare. Genghis Khan who slaughtered entire cities. Romans who did same earlier. Such religious personages, all of them.
--
... a reference to Presidente Arbusto.
-- [link|http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001417.html|Geoffrey K. Pullum]
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Post #174,902
9/18/04 2:22:01 AM
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Religion is not the only motivation for slaughter.
But, it's right up there. Let's think about some recent events.
The "Chosen People" (and who is superior to that?) are slaughtering Palestinian Arabs every chance they get (and vice versa). Exclude their faith and these people are otherwise indistinguishable.
The "troubles" of Northern Ireland. Prey tell what is the difference between the two sides.
The Indian Hindu slaughter of Indian Muslims and vice versa. And, of course, the perpetual fighting between India and Pakistan over Kashmir.
The Indonesian Muslim slaughter of East Timor Christians.
Genocide of Darfur blacks by Sudanese Arabs.
God is on our side!
Alex
"If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words." -- Philip K. Dick, US science fiction writer
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Post #174,925
9/18/04 8:58:00 AM
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And, of course
None of these people would find other reasons to slaughter one another if religion were eliminated, right?
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #174,940
9/18/04 12:39:40 PM
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The "chosen people" do have many more
opportunities than they actually use to "slaughter" Palestinians. They miss awful lot of them, for the bloodthirsty murderers that they are. Palestinians, on the other hand, don't miss a single one offered to them, such good fighters.
As for difference between Irish and English - I think it's more about one side being poor and conquered. I won't be surprized if the religious difference is the consequence of the older hatred.
Hindu and Muslims have been at each other throats since the time of Muslim conquest of India. No one can find heads and tails of that oen any more, but it started as conquest, even if it had some religious mutterings as well.
Don't know much about Indonesia.
Darfur is another complex shithole with history. Thenatives rose up first, and started to fight for independence. What we see is a pushback from Khartoum, magnified to genocidal proportions. All this shit has nothing to do with religion, but rather with power and land pocession.
--
... a reference to Presidente Arbusto.
-- [link|http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001417.html|Geoffrey K. Pullum]
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Post #174,914
9/18/04 6:11:33 AM
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"You Have to be Carefully Taught
to Hate" is my response to 'nature-or-nurture' as it was Rodgers', Hammerstein's in South Pacific. Author of this remembrance lost: > When I was little, my parents listened to a lot of music (consequently, so did I). One song from the musical "South Pacific" for some reason always struck a chord with me - no pun intended. In the musical, Lt. Cable, who falls in love with a native girl on the island and is forced to confront the fact that he is himself prejudiced, sings a song about just that. It's called
> "You've Got to be Carefully Taught".
>
> You've got to be taught to hate and fear
> You've got to be taught from year to year
> It's got to be drummed in your dear little ear.
> You've got to be carefully taught.
>
> You've got to be taught to be afraid
> Of people whose eyes are oddly made
> and people whose skin is a different shade
> You've got to be carefully taught.
>
> You've got to be taught
> before it's too late
> before you are six or seven or eight
> To hate all the people your relatives hate
> You've got to be carefully taught.
>
> South Pacific was released as a movie in 1958. Haven't we learned anything since then? Rhetorical question, that; it is now affirmed that, the only thing we learn from history is that we do not learn from history.Author probably Googleable. [BTW - R & H made it a contract condition; if you wanted to do a production of South Pacific, you could not omit this song.] Inculcation of Children. This is the means and it is the means of every religion. 'Causality' is a cute concept, rarely discoverable re homo-saps, but handy in physics.. if you don't try to cover more than about two bodies at a time. Childhood inculcation is the regular means of corrupting the innocent with Corporate Religio-speak - as if it were unthinkable to live without the local flavor of assorted and selected tenets, almost every one of which collection begins (or ends) with a form of, Our Clan is Superior because We Believe ___.The message that it is somehow 'normal' to hate The Other Who is Not Me/Mine is drilled into an impressionable mind; often in direct words, augmented by an observation of 'adult' actual behavior. Nobody has said it more concisely than Rogers and Hammerstein IMO, and in most-contemporary argot. The next stage of tedious argument must enter into the archetypes and hoary formulations of Jungian or {ugh} pop 'psych', and on towards the metaphysical. I rest case prior to that drudgery. I Who Be
The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world.
-- Georgia Harkness in "Conflicts in Religious Thought" (1929) via Alex
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.
-- Blaise Pascal also via Alex
276. FALWELL'S ARGUMENT FROM METEORS
1) God hates gay people.
2) God is merciful.
3) Disney World held a Gay Day parade.
4) God could have punished them by sending earthquakes, hurricanes, or possibly a meteor down on Florida.
5) He didn't.
6) Therefore, (1) and (2) are correct.
7) Therefore, God exists.
289. ARGUMENT FROM COMMUNISM
1) All communists are atheists.
2) All communists are bad.
3) Therefore they are wrong.
4) The moral majority is are theists and non-communists.
5) Therefore they are good.
6) Therefore they are right.
7) This argument does so make sense!
8) Therefore, God exists.
309. ARGUMENT FROM INCONSISTENCY (POLKINGHORNE'S MILLION-DOLLAR ARGUMENT)
1) If the Bible were cooked up by fakers, it would have been perfect and seamless and without any apparent inconsistencies, to make it look like the word of God.
2) But the Bible IS inconsistent, erroneous, and plain goofy in many places.
3) Therefore, the Bible is NOT the product of fakers.
4) It must be the word of God. Amen.
5) Therefore, God exists.
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Post #174,916
9/18/04 6:41:36 AM
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For Those Too Lazy To Google
[link|http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm|http://www.godlessge...INKS/GodProof.htm]
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #174,922
9/18/04 7:20:16 AM
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See Jesus 'quote' in this thread re:The Civil War.
It was quite common for the South to quote the many passages in Christian handbooks (The Bible) about "slaves obeying their masters" as a justification for slavery.
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
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Post #174,923
9/18/04 8:20:30 AM
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See my first post, re justification.
Justification comes AFTER motivation.
Indeed, slavery was not the reason for the war.
The Federal government was gathering powers the states traditionally exercised to itself.
Centralized versus Decentralized power was the main issue of the war.
People can (and do) use ANY 'cause', ANY ideology the same way.
It's not the religion.
It's the people.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #174,986
9/18/04 9:28:05 PM
|
Well yes - that's 'true'
on an elevated, isolated Scale. I guess.
But then you are intentionally eliding the 'promise' that these Holy Scriptures contain Revealed recipes for an [usually, The Only] acceptable life. That is purportedly the reason that adults feel no remorse in injecting this stuff directly into innocents. The Good Life.
Which you can have IF.. you follow all the recipes.. and their contradictions:
Even where there are several volumes (an 'early' One with lots of gore - prior to a God-Man writing down stuff and then an er, Revised One, after various human-summits met with a Representative and.. and..)
Even where multiple translations, edits, transliterations and -- 'removals' have occurred since a particular Day 1.
(Say.. elision of all mention of one 'St. Thomas' in the Xian variations on those themes.)
Even so.
But the recipes also require that you are to deem yourself akin to a Tribble.
While those fictional creatures were merely born pregnant .. You are born in/on/from sin and btw: your bodily functions are ummm dreck [not you, Dan] and Don't You Forget It.
We'll Show You How
(not to forget your body is shit and so, mostly Are You - 'til we Fix You Up)
[Of course details differ amongst the stew of competing Mine's-the-Only RIGHT One], to be found all over the planet. And yes, some are more benign that others, especially about that ingrained guilt stuff - ever a personal choice I guess -- if a kid Had One, early on.
cha cha cha
We feed this pabulum to innocent kiddies. And they grow up passing it on - Nothing exceeds like excess.
But you say, "it's the 'people'". Well, Yes, It Is.
Nice try.
Where there is correlation of the effects from "a way of inculcating a certain kind of Madness" into malleable innocents: you cannot create a very cool apologia for "that which corrupts human possibilities", and which has demonstrably formed the rationale for most of the thousands of wars.. (of those actually recorded, sorta).
Now, Can You?
As to the slavery/US thing - yes of course; like .. "we invaded to free the Iraqis from one of those horrible dictators (we regularly used to? help along)." Yes, the "slavery" issue was tertiary or lower - at first, aka WMDs .. no wait: "we wanted to Help the People. Forget the WMDs in place and aimed at Iowa City" er, never mind about that.
But folks quoting dem dere Scripture-thingies "as justification" for that horror of slavery does, 'I Believe':
QED about the utter nefariousness of human books masquerading as [the Absolute Speaks at 11].
[Coda]
Da Capo - jump to beginning of the musical passage
Can a species free itself of suicidal programming? (Would everyone have to get-it at once?)
We'll see. Let us prey.
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Post #174,999
9/18/04 11:50:25 PM
|
Believe it or not, I understand and somewhat agree
with some of your your points.
After all, dogma built on religion has been used for the social control of people for a long time. And it's fact that gospels were picked and chosen by men for inclusion in the Christian bible, at least. And there are multiple translations.
You can willfully interpret religious texts as ridiculous if you like.
You mock the religious for not following YOUR beliefs, also. You cannot deny that you do this, regularly.
You show, PERSONALLY, the same flaws you attribute to the religious; therefore the flaw of dividing and injuring people because they don't share belief systems with you is NOT 'caused' by religion, but is, in fact, a flaw in our human nature.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #175,019
9/19/04 2:59:44 AM
|
'Religion' oft has little or zippo to do with 'spirituality'
Evidently so in the US (and lately so in Islam). My personal POV is my own; I believe it ought to remain so. (Believe too, that Believers are enjoined from parading their Cosmic hints; it's deemed counter to their own teachings, I hear.) Irony is the watchword in this yuga! Arguing a negative does not infect one with the positive.
There is much to mock in a predominately Social organization which increasingly is associated with a Political stance. Need I list examples as created the common phrase, "The Religious Right"? Another correlation, or is it just YAN coincidence (?) Let's not even do "Religious Conservative", OK?
I have 'mocked', lampooned/whatever equally - those whose religion is self-defined so as to exclude (whatever 'spiritual' might mean). The mechanical universe idea is no different from any other religious club's variant. In the Advertising/Celebrity society, everything Important soon is reduced to YAN blab-word. I don't accept responsibility for the discomfort produced if a one IDs self, confusing clan-loyalty with metaphysical pursuits - and waxes smug about Believing the One Truth. That is a one who mocks self effectively, without any help from moi.
Perhaps all undefinable like the pineapple: Spirituality exists or can exist within homo-sap, and was somewhere present at the formation of even most Corp religions. [I would except a few modern techno- ones, especially the one successfully spawned to win a bet about 'creating a new religion'".] It has a rather impressive amount of Capital in its coffers. Shall we call this one a Success?
But since nothing re spirtuality can conceivably be 'argued', there isn't much that can be said, either. Fortunately too, we need not anticipate a new E-product, a litmus test to prove Sincerity, Honesty, Integrity and Truth.
(OTOH.. it is '04. It might sell Well (especially if it confirms what one wished to find.))
One thing is 'Certain' if anything Is: nothing remotely like 'spirituality' would settle for M.A.D. and condone the creation of massive planet-destroying arsenals, dedicated precisely to: making sure that Our Side/God vaporizes Their Side/God, No Matter What.
The Fact of there being such Sides - is, I aver - confirmation that Corp religions have zippo to do with any metaphysical Truths whatsoever, no matter what their color glossies advertise, nor the magnificence of the Cathedrals built by God-frightened serfs.
All who take part in this terminal illusion (which nukes epitomize, simultaneously satirize) - practice a 'religion' which has no spiritual connection. It might take Cantor's nondenumerable 'comparative infinities' to demonstrate this to the excessively-numerate but mainly-uncivilized; hmmm, maybe it's the sort of exercise over which some folks might spend years, building an algorithm. Best \ufffd the sucker.
I did not murder Language, and I do what I can to resuscitate a few good words, where possible. ie Not Guilty as charged.
moi
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Post #175,029
9/19/04 8:39:04 AM
9/19/04 8:40:55 AM
|
Uh huh.
Believe too, that Believers are enjoined from parading their Cosmic hints; it's deemed counter to their own teachings, I hear Interesting generalization. Common ground for all religion? For the religious? No. I do believe you made it up to fit your own dogma. I don't accept responsibility for the discomfort produced if a one IDs self, confusing clan-loyalty with metaphysical pursuits - and waxes smug about Believing the One Truth. Yet you wax 'smug' against those who believe in the God of Abraham. You do it consistently, and I cannot remember you producing a 'disclaimer' that admits that those following that path can ever be 'spiritual'. Indeed, for the rest of your post, you imply that this path is a 'corp-religion' and has no connection with spirituality. Not Guilty I'm afraid not, Ash. You have simply tried to rationalize why your mockery is proper. You are completely guilty of this one. Admit it and move on.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
Edited by imric
Sept. 19, 2004, 08:40:55 AM EDT
|
Post #175,065
9/19/04 2:03:12 PM
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A little more explanation please?
Believe too, that Believers are enjoined from parading their Cosmic hints; it's deemed counter to their own teachings, I hear
Interesting generalization. Common ground for all religion? For the religious? No. I do believe you made it up to fit your own dogma. Imric, you seem to understand what Ashton was saying, could you clarify it better for me? Is what he's saying is that Believers (i.e. Christians, etc), don't practice their religion, or that they don't force it on people, or what? Not sure what he's saying, and not sure the dictionary would be of much help this time around. Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
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Post #175,067
9/19/04 2:21:33 PM
|
With Ash, it can be sometimes hard,
but what I took him to mean is that he thinks that religion discourages public talk about personal spiritual experiences. Kinda has to be, since Martin Luther broke the hold the church had over the scriptures - I confess to ignorance as to method the Koran and the Torah is 'revealed' to believers.
I don't speak for him, of course, and if my interpretation is wrong, Ash, my apologies. I dislike intepreting posts for others; it's too much like putting words in thier mouths...
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #175,069
9/19/04 2:35:12 PM
|
Trust me, I know that
My paperback dictionary is almost worn out from grabbing it to look up words in his posts, hehehe. I started using the online one, it's less damaging. ;)
Thanks for that explanation... I think I thought something entirely different. I thought he meant that religious people weren't prone to tell others about their faith, that it would be seen as "preaching" to them.
Actually, we can and do tell others about our faith, but the difference is we don't push them to accept it or keep pushing it on them when they don't want us to. And we don't "judge" them, as in treat them bad or differently because they don't accept it. Like it says in the Bible, if they don't listen, shake the dust off your feet and go on, or something like that. I don't know the scripture, I'm not that good at remembering those. (I think it's because they are all numbers hehehe)
Maybe Ashton will enlighten us as to what he really meant, or if either one of u is right.
Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
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Post #175,111
9/20/04 4:20:23 AM
|
Heh.. I 'splain how ya can end war n'stuff (new thread)
Created as new thread #175110 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=175110|Heh.. I 'splain how ya can end war n'stuff]
[link|http://wiw.org/~drz/tom.lehrer/evening.html| And.. we.. will.. all go together when we go] (trumpet call, refrain)
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Post #174,990
9/18/04 10:25:53 PM
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I see nothing wrong with that posistion
Justification comes AFTER motivation. People can (and do) use ANY 'cause', ANY ideology the same way.
It's not the religion.
It's the people. I see nothing wrong with that posistion as long as you apply it consistantly. If nothing bad can be attributed to religion because the people where that way anyway, then nothing good can be attributed to religion either. Religion becomes nothing more then a set of empty gestures you go through once a week because you don't like sleeping in Sunday. As far as I can tell the truth is much more complex. Not all people that say they are motivated by religion really are. Some are simply telling the tale they need to get people to go along, others have picked or created a religion based on it approving what they where going to do anyway. But not all of them, some of them really do have faith. No matter how wrong you might think their beliefs, they are doing what they think is right. Nor is all the good done in the name of religion motivated by religion, many people working at religious charities would still be doing charitable work if the religion did not exist. In many cases it is even more complex then that. People motivations and beliefs do change over time. Many preachers seem to wander between really believing in themselves and faking it. In other cases people join a church because it is convenient, only to find themselves caught up in the church's posistion, for good or evil. Religion can be a motivation for good or evil, but people tend to attribute either to much or to little. In general religion is neither the primary motivator nor is it negligable. For any specific person, you must consider the deapth of their faith to see if it is true or not. Jay
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Post #175,000
9/18/04 11:52:57 PM
|
*smile*
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #174,932
9/18/04 10:07:57 AM
|
Well, I consider that...
the greatest harm I know which was done to man was Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and they weren't destroyed in the name of God.
So I can't agree with you that history is on your side in this issue.
Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
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Post #174,945
9/18/04 1:10:34 PM
|
You'd be wrong
there are many far worse examples than those two. In terms of people killed/maimed, they're pretty penny ante in fact.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #174,841
9/17/04 4:51:04 PM
|
The base of religion is faith
and faith is the belief in something with cannot be proved.
That is not the same as "belief in something beyond reason". (ie: it's possible to believe in a religion and still be reasonable.) Being reasonable is looking at items that can be proved and acknowledging that exist and have influence.
Furthermore, it is possible to be "beyond reason" and for religion not to play a factor. (Example: a psychotic who isn't religious.)
As a sidebar, I think your argument of "Without first getting a zealot to abandon his religion, you simply cannot get to any shared base from which to negogiate." is misleading. The implied assumption is that it's the religious belief at the heart of the matter that is the problem (possible, but unlikely). Most cases do allow allow for a shared base from which to negogiate if you look at the religion closely.
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Post #174,848
9/17/04 5:25:06 PM
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Counter-example to your last.
Shared base: "All should be allowed to live."
Religious credo: "I have faith (in Allah, Christ, whomever) and you do not. Hence, your life is worth less in the eyes of God than mine."
That's core, man. There is no dealing with that and that attitude prevails in all the Mesopotamian belief systems. And I'm not talking just jihadists here, remember the Spanish Inquisition?
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
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Post #174,849
9/17/04 5:32:08 PM
|
Huh? No way!
Religious credo: "I have faith (in Allah, Christ, whomever) and you do not. Hence, your life is worth less in the eyes of God than mine." That's core, man. There is no dealing with that and that attitude prevails in all the Mesopotamian belief systems. And I'm not talking just jihadists here, remember the Spanish Inquisition? Wrong, not even close. Christians do not believe that. All people are equal in the sight of God, no one is worth less. Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
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Post #174,850
9/17/04 5:35:55 PM
|
What you just said is a sin
in Christianity, a violation of Torah in Judaism, and probably just as bad in Islam (not familiar enough to know). It's possible to imagine such religion, but I haven't seen it yet.
--
... a reference to Presidente Arbusto.
-- [link|http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001417.html|Geoffrey K. Pullum]
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Post #174,854
9/17/04 5:44:57 PM
|
Just read the texts, man.
I've gotta run, but here's a quick sample from "Christianity".
First, Kill the inappreciative slaves... Yeah, that's humane.
Luke 12:45-48: "The lord [owner] of
that servant will come in a day when
he looketh not for him, and at an
hour when he is not aware, and will
cut him in sunder, and will appoint
him his portion with the
unbelievers. And that servant, which
knew his lord's will, and prepared
not himself, neither did according
to his will, shall be beaten with
many stripes. But he that knew not,
and did commit things worthy of
stripes, shall be beaten with few
stripes. For unto whomsoever much is
given, of him shall be much
required: and to whom men have
committed much, of him they will ask
the more."
And here Jesus commands slaves to obey their masters (guess he'd have fought with the Confederacy, huh?)
Colossians 3:22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to
the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of
heart, fearing God.
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
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Post #174,855
9/17/04 5:48:28 PM
|
The Lord
Not you. The Lord.
It's not yours to cut anybody down or appoint someone's lot.
Your "[owner]" thing is simply pathetic.
--
... a reference to Presidente Arbusto.
-- [link|http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001417.html|Geoffrey K. Pullum]
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Post #174,862
9/17/04 6:08:52 PM
|
Exactly
And taking scriptures out of context is also not a good way to show what their meanings are.
For example:
Colossians 3:22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to
the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of
heart, fearing God.
Those of us who have chosen to be, ARE servants of God. Not really slaves, although you can bandy the words around. Bottom line is that we accept Him and CHOOSE to serve Him, which is much much different.
Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
|
Post #174,877
9/17/04 7:35:06 PM
|
The [owner] thing wasn't mine.
I was quoting some one else and had copied that from an email I'd received. I think it was originally schlocked off a website, but I cannot find a link.
All that aside, it is interesting that you didn't have a comment about Jesus, and the post actually makes my point better if it is your "Lord". Because, according to the Christian text, you should be beaten/killed for not doing as the Lord commands. Hmmmm.... now why does that sound familiar?
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
|
Post #174,885
9/17/04 8:16:32 PM
|
None so dumb as who won't think.
--
... a reference to Presidente Arbusto.
-- [link|http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001417.html|Geoffrey K. Pullum]
|
Post #174,921
9/18/04 7:18:03 AM
|
Heh.
Seeking evidence from third parties for one's position is "dumb". Of course it is, for a believer.
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
|
Post #174,924
9/18/04 8:46:27 AM
9/18/04 8:48:48 AM
|
That's evidence?
at best it was an assertion. No backing facts. The assertion happens to be true, BUT - it in no way invalidates ANYTHING I posted.
In fact, you have yet to contradict anything I've said, save by assertion.
But that's all right. (whoops! Clicked too soon). I'm sure that those that opposed slavery did so because they WEREN'T religious.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
Edited by imric
Sept. 18, 2004, 08:48:48 AM EDT
|
Post #174,941
9/18/04 12:41:20 PM
|
What third parties?
You quoted the Gospel and grossly distorted its meaning. COngratulation: you and bin Laden agree on the meaning on religion. The fact that all truly religious people disagree with you must be of no consequence. Picking an interpretation and sticking to it - how religious of you. How dumb.
--
... a reference to Presidente Arbusto.
-- [link|http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001417.html|Geoffrey K. Pullum]
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Post #175,170
9/20/04 12:09:25 PM
|
Interpretation? You're interpretting ferchrissakes.
And Kudos to you for interpretting. Let me be clear: A plain-text reading of any of the so-called religious texts coming out of the ME at once causes the "believer" to have a grotesque sense of superiority and eagerness to expunge any "non-believers" from humanity.
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
|
Post #175,173
9/20/04 12:33:59 PM
|
Not even close
...Let me be clear: A plain-text reading of any of the so-called religious texts coming out of the ME at once causes the "believer" to have a grotesque sense of superiority and eagerness to expunge any "non-believers" from humanity. If you're saying that by reading the Bible I have a sense of superiority and eagerness to "expunge" all non-believers from humanity, you would be completely mistaken. Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
|
Post #175,179
9/20/04 12:42:10 PM
|
<sigh>
If you're saying that by reading the Bible I have a sense of superiority and eagerness to "expunge" all non-believers from humanity, you would be completely mistaken.
"A plain text reading". The only Christians I know (and I count among them most of the Christians here) that are both self-proclaimed Christians and decent human beings are the Christians who don't take too seriously the medieval superstitious tripe that comprises most of the Christian Bible.
Does that help? In short, if you "read the Bible" without rejecting that which is vulgar, indecent and inhumane, then ....
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
|
Post #175,181
9/20/04 12:46:07 PM
|
Not sure
Because I don't know what you mean by your last statement. I just know I don't feel the ways you described, no matter what I think about what I read.
Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
|
Post #175,184
9/20/04 12:54:57 PM
|
The nut.
If you don't "interpret the Bible" when you read it and instead take what it says literally, then you become "superior" and want to beat, maim, enslave, kill, etc., all non-believers.
This is not unique to Christian writings, that kind of text is present in all the so-called religious texts arising out of the ME.
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
|
Post #175,186
9/20/04 1:00:14 PM
|
Ah ok
The ME is the Mesopotamian Era, right?
Well then it's clear to me that the Bible (or other texts) aren't what's evil, it's the way individuals interpret the words that can become evil. So I still stand on my point that religion isn't the root of all evil, but people interpret it in their own ways and turn those interpretations into evil behaviors on their part.
I think we've come full-circle here, there isn't much more to say.
Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
|
Post #175,203
9/20/04 2:56:43 PM
|
NO!
Well then it's clear to me that the Bible (or other texts) aren't what's evil, it's the way individuals interpret the words that can become evil.
NOT AT ALL. It IS the interpretation that makes it humane! The plain text explicitly calls for atrocities to be committed against any and all non-believers! That is WITHOUT interpretation.
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
|
Post #175,213
9/20/04 3:28:44 PM
|
Same thing
They either interpret it LITERALLY or FIGURATIVELY.
It's still all about how people take the words and their meanings.
Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
|
Post #175,187
9/20/04 1:04:54 PM
|
No kudos to you for repeating
without evidence of any kind that this is the case.
Without any response (outside of repetition) to any of my posts.
Pound the table, m'lad! Pound the table!
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #175,201
9/20/04 2:54:43 PM
|
Huh?
Are you claiming that the "sacred books" of J-C-M do not contain passages like the one I already cited? What is your point? Is religion the only thing that causes people to commit atrocities? Of course not. But it is among the very, very few that promise ever-lasting-life, (or virgins, depending on the flavor) explicitly in the text of their manuals/Bibles in plain, translated, English. You don't think that's worthy of condemning? A belief system that literally encourages atrocities?
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
|
Post #175,207
9/20/04 3:14:38 PM
|
Go ahead - change your point
after it became apparent that you were wrong.
Lessee now - you claimed that:
"it IS religion that is at the root of most (all?) evil."
and are unable to support that statement; unable to back up the idea that the flaw exists in humanity with or without religion.
'it is religion alone that causes that subset to hold that they are more "God-like"'
(underlining mine)
yet with all of your mocking and insults, you yourself are guilty of this (simply refusing to use godlike in reference to yourself does not absolve you of this attitude of 'superiority') type of thinking. Unless you are religious (and this I doubt), you yourself break your own line of reasoning by your behaviour. YOur philosophy is 'superior' to religion, therefor it is OK to deride religion and religious people, no?
Bah. It is impossible to reason with people like you, unless you are broken of your sophmoric philosophies.
*chuckle*
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #175,214
9/20/04 3:30:53 PM
|
Yes!
yet with all of your mocking and insults, you yourself are guilty of this (simply refusing to use godlike in reference to yourself does not absolve you of this attitude of 'superiority') type of thinking. Unless you are religious (and this I doubt), you yourself break your own line of reasoning by your behaviour. YOur philosophy is 'superior' to religion, therefor it is OK to deride religion and religious people, no? Bah. It is impossible to reason with people like you, unless you are broken of your sophmoric philosophies. Very very well said. Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
|
Post #175,215
9/20/04 3:33:05 PM
|
*chuckle*
The second was a joke; a rephrasing of his own words.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
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Post #175,222
9/20/04 3:46:11 PM
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True, but
it also points out that you can't reason with someone who refuses to look at things reasonably or refuses to have an open mind about something.
But yeah, I wondered if the second part was a joke. I liked the first part best.
Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
|
Post #175,218
9/20/04 3:39:17 PM
|
Hey, that's *graduate* philosophies ;-)
"it IS religion that is at the root of most (all?) evil."
and are unable to support that statement; unable to back up the idea that the flaw exists in humanity with or without religion. I can support that argument. The (all?) is clearly a question. Practicing a religion "as it is written" is what lead to the Crusades, the prosecution of Gallileo, the horrors of the corrupt early Popes, the slaughter of the native peoples of North America, most - if not all - of the thousands of years of violence in the ME, The Spanish Inquisition, etc. ad plenty-o-nauseum.
'it is religion alone that causes that subset to hold that they are more "God-like"'
What else besides religion teaches any of its adherence that they know God and/or are the Chosen People? That only by believing as we do can you enter heaven? I don't know of anything other than religion that promises eternal life, just for a "belief". Do you? bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
|
Post #175,226
9/20/04 4:00:05 PM
|
Is it?
I can support that argument. The (all?) is clearly a question. Practicing a religion "as it is written" is what lead to the Crusades, the prosecution of Gallileo, the horrors of the corrupt early Popes, the slaughter of the native peoples of North America, most - if not all - of the thousands of years of violence in the ME, The Spanish Inquisition, etc. ad plenty-o-nauseum. And I think it is unsupported - I believe that most of these horrors were done for secular reasons, and justified by religious argument. I believe that most historians wou;ld back me up, as well. Gallileo threatened the secular power of the Papacy, for instance - the corrupt popes were, well corrupt - and used the church as a vehicle for wealth and domination, most of the native peoples of North America died of disease, the rest had thier land and posessions stolen - saving thier souls was only an excuse, just some examples. Look - NEVER in this thread have I even implied that the various religious texts weren't used as an excuse for abomination; I simply believe that people can twist ANYTHING in order to rationalize thier own behaviour. I amn not immune (or superior *grin*) to this, you are not, atheists are not, muslims are not, followers of the Tao are not. I believe that both the desire to avoid personal responsibility and rationalization are both at the root of human evil. Not religion - especially not a particular type of religion. Not even general ideology. The flaw is in all of us.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #175,259
9/20/04 4:34:41 PM
|
Re: Is it?
Look - NEVER in this thread have I even implied that the various religious texts weren't used as an excuse for abomination; I simply believe that people can twist ANYTHING in order to rationalize thier own behaviour. I amn not immune (or superior *grin*) to this, you are not, atheists are not, muslims are not, followers of the Tao are not. I believe that both the desire to avoid personal responsibility and rationalization are both at the root of human evil. Not religion - especially not a particular type of religion. Not even general ideology. The flaw is in all of us. And I say loudly, AMEN! ;) (interpretation, I agree completely) Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
|
Post #175,189
9/20/04 1:15:19 PM
|
Ego is Id
I think the attitude that "I am superior" is an inherent human trait. After all, I can never know exactly what it means to be you, but I am quite familiar with what it means to be me (you'll have to take my word on that since you are not me).
Now extend the range out a bit more, my family is much more important to me than others. My neighborhood is the most important in the community. My city is the most important in the state. My state is the most important in the country. My country is the most important in the world. My planet is the most important in the universe. Adding another layer to this tribalism (religion) may add one more layer of us vs. them, but it is not an essential ingredient. You can add all sorts of other economic and political tribes to the mix.
As for your take on religion, I would think that a non-theist would assume that since there is no god, the beliefs of any group is not really as cohesive as some may pretend. In particular, the religions may have some beliefs in common, but what they mean for a particular individual is subject to time and experience.
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Post #175,199
9/20/04 2:49:04 PM
|
I'm not sure about a non-theist, because I'm not one.
I think more than one person in this thread has confused the issue. I'm not talking about one's true religion (that which is entirely subjective and cannot be discussed in any meaningful way - see, for instance, Chapter 1 of the Tao Te Ching, "The name that can be named is not the eternal Name." and Chapter 56 "Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know.").
This is not what I'm speaking of. What I've been protesting is the content of the so-called sacred texts of the Judeo-Christian-Muslim religions. All of them call for atrocities to be commited against the heathens explicitly - and this, I point out, distinguishes them from, say, Taoism and Buddhism.
"Religious" Christians, Muslims and Jews do no accept such passages in their respective texts and instead "interpret" or "spin" what the words mean. In short, they do not practice their religion in the manner it is taught. I would have thought holding such would not be the source of any controversy.
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
|
Post #175,232
9/20/04 4:09:03 PM
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So which passage says that we should commit violence?
This is not what I'm speaking of. What I've been protesting is the content of the so-called sacred texts of the Judeo-Christian-Muslim religions. All of them call for atrocities to be commited against the heathens explicitly - and this, I point out, distinguishes them from, say, Taoism and Buddhism. Can't speak much about Islam, not being aware of their texts or history. From the Jewish standpoint, I think you'll find the Talmud is pretty important in the interpretation of the Bible. From a Catholic standpoint, the interpretation falls in a combination of the Bible, tradition, and authority. I could dig up the Catholic position on humility, grace and violence if you'd like, but I rather doubt they would support your position. Which leaves us with the Evangelical Christians (or Protestants if you'd rather). Most of their interpretation falls under the domain of Sola Scriptura. Even that won't help your position because your position assumes that their interpretation matches what you take to be obvious. So are you saying that you know more about these various religious traditions than do the practitioners themselves? I generally hold the individual accountable for their actions and I find no evidence that being proud is considered a virtue (it's one of the 7 deadly sins). Most traditions, be it Eastern or Western, hold humility to be a virtue. In particular, many Christian groups believe that we are all sinners, saved and unsaved alike. It is only by grace that we come to that state. From a Christian perspective, there's a large number of things which are ignored in the "Old Testament". Eating habits are the obvious example (not many Kosher Christians). Early Christianity even wrestled with whether to accept the early texts, preferring the new fangled testament. In the end, it was decided that they were a necessary ingredient to interpreting the New Testament, but neither were all of the pre & proscriptions regarded as relevant. Anyhow, is there anything in the New Testament that makes your point? From a Christian perspective, the Old Testament is only relevant from the standpoint of the interpretation of Jesus. Now, all of this is, of course, theoretical. In practice, any individual or tribe can be downright cruel. And I would agree that religion tends to cause divisiveness and that people tend to be smug about their beliefs. But when it comes to the "sacred scriptures", what you are assuming is (a) there's only one interpretation (b) the various texts that make up the whole are consistent and uniform; and (c) individuals are not afforded the luxory of making their own choices about what things mean. I'll grant that religion has been fraught with violence. What I don't particularly accept though is that it was the necessary ingredient. For my money, economic and political motivation has a higher correlation to the events that have unfolded in human history. Religion is but a tool used to motivate others to that end.
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Post #175,261
9/20/04 4:39:34 PM
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Wow, great response!
...In particular, many Christian groups believe that we are all sinners, saved and unsaved alike. It is only by grace that we come to that state. I wholly agree here. Now, all of this is, of course, theoretical. In practice, any individual or tribe can be downright cruel. And I would agree that religion tends to cause divisiveness and that people tend to be smug about their beliefs.... And you can substitute politics for the word religion in that sentence as well, and probably many others. I'll grant that religion has been fraught with violence. What I don't particularly accept though is that it was the necessary ingredient. For my money, economic and political motivation has a higher correlation to the events that have unfolded in human history. Religion is but a tool used to motivate others to that end. My thoughts exactly, great post! Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
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Post #175,202
9/20/04 2:55:05 PM
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I guess it all depends on what's
"plain text" to you. To me it's plain that "The Lord" in this means God. To you, it's some mysterious "owner". Ok, taking your interpretation for a second, are _you_, personally, an "owner" of anybody? If not, then it's not yours to punish. If yes, I'd like to hear an explanation.
--
... a reference to Presidente Arbusto.
-- [link|http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001417.html|Geoffrey K. Pullum]
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Post #175,205
9/20/04 3:06:59 PM
|
I could be wrong about this, but I think "case"
is significant here. Here's the whole thing (AFAIK):
41. Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42. And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portions of meat in due season?
43. Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44. Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45. But if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and be drunken;
46. The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut in sunder, and will appoint his portion with the unbelievers.
47. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
[link|http://members.cox.net/rev.claude/prbl04.htm|http://members.cox.n...claude/prbl04.htm]
See, they switched case. So, maybe the "owner" thing is appropriate after all and here the Bible okays slave owners beating their upity slaves as hard as "unbelievers".
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
|
Post #175,206
9/20/04 3:12:54 PM
9/20/04 3:13:18 PM
|
It's a parable
"lord" certainly means "Lord" here (edit: but not literally). The "master" "will appoint his portion with the unbelievers"? Unbelievers in what - his masterly persona? Nope, it's obviously a parable: if human master punsishes his slave (servant?) who "say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and be drunken", the Lord above will do same with His servants who He left in authority. If anything, this is a piece of subversive anti-establishment propaganda.
--
... a reference to Presidente Arbusto.
-- [link|http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001417.html|Geoffrey K. Pullum]
Edited by Arkadiy
Sept. 20, 2004, 03:13:18 PM EDT
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Post #175,220
9/20/04 3:43:11 PM
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Re: It's a parable
Very well defended, Arkadiy!
I couldn't have said it better.
And to add one other things, most of the described "atrocities" Mmoffitt refers to happened in the Old Testament and or New Testament before Christ came with the New Covenant. When the New Covenant replaced the old one, most of the things those "believers" were required to do, (such as blood sacrifices for example), were no longer required or expected.
Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
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Post #175,372
9/21/04 9:27:32 AM
|
"New Covenant" hmmmmmmm.....
That's where Christians co-opted "The Chosen People" for themselves and took the moniker away from the Jews, right? And this isn't about "supremacy" - Feh!
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
|
Post #175,396
9/21/04 11:38:40 AM
9/21/04 11:40:13 AM
|
Ooops -- ignore.. moving to religion as requested
Nothing to see here
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
Edited by Nightowl
Sept. 21, 2004, 11:40:13 AM EDT
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Post #175,399
9/21/04 11:41:00 AM
|
I have no idea what you're talking about (new thread)
Created as new thread #175398 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=175398|I have no idea what you're talking about]
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
|
Post #175,221
9/20/04 3:46:09 PM
|
The "unbelievers" are a class.
...will cut in sunder, and will appoint his portion with the unbelievers.
I'm not clear on what "appoint his portion" means, but it is clear that within this text the "unbelievers" are of lower class. Which is precisely and example of what imric has been beating me up for.
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
|
Post #175,225
9/20/04 3:50:28 PM
|
How is that clear?
I'm not clear on what "appoint his portion" means, but it is clear that within this text the "unbelievers" are of lower class. Which is precisely and example of what imric has been beating me up for. Huh? Not so. It doesn't make it clear that unbelievers are of lower class, only that he chose the unbelievers over the believers. That's just a conscious choice, just like choosing one team over another, or one political party over another ... it doesn't always mean one is lower class than another, just the choice the chooser made. So in this case, he chooses to appoint his portion with the team or party of believers, rather than the team or party of unbelievers. Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
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Post #175,282
9/20/04 5:56:31 PM
|
Oh my. A class.
Can't you take the word for what it means? Unbeliever, AKA kiafir - one who does not believe in God. Nothing to do with class.
"Appoint his portion" means "assign his fate" or some such AFAIK.
The text is saying that abusive boss is no better than unbeliever, and shall be punished by God. Do you disagree with my interpretation?
--
... a reference to Presidente Arbusto.
-- [link|http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001417.html|Geoffrey K. Pullum]
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Post #175,290
9/20/04 6:21:25 PM
|
Psssst! Don't tell Bryce.....
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #175,291
9/20/04 6:24:15 PM
|
Remember, the meek shall inherit the earth...
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #175,295
9/20/04 6:43:10 PM
|
And what did poor bastards do to deserver such fate?
--
... a reference to Presidente Arbusto.
-- [link|http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001417.html|Geoffrey K. Pullum]
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Post #175,311
9/20/04 9:17:15 PM
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6' deep 6' long and 4' wide
These miserable swine, having nothing but illusions to live on, marshmallows for the soul in place of good meat, will now stoop to any disgusting level to prevent even those miserable morsels from vanishing into thin air. The country is being destroyed by these stupid, vicious right-wing fanatics, the spiritual brothers of the brownshirts and redstars, collectivists and authoritarians all, who would not know freedom if it bit them on the ass, who spend all their time trying to stamp, bludgeon, and eviscerate the very idea of the individual's right to his own private world. DRL
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #175,315
9/20/04 9:37:45 PM
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4' wide??????
I don't know of any single grave that is 4 feet wide. Family plots maybe, but not single graves. And most are longer than 6 feet, also. ;)
Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
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Post #175,378
9/21/04 9:37:24 AM
|
take a measuring tape to your next funeral 4' wide
These miserable swine, having nothing but illusions to live on, marshmallows for the soul in place of good meat, will now stoop to any disgusting level to prevent even those miserable morsels from vanishing into thin air. The country is being destroyed by these stupid, vicious right-wing fanatics, the spiritual brothers of the brownshirts and redstars, collectivists and authoritarians all, who would not know freedom if it bit them on the ass, who spend all their time trying to stamp, bludgeon, and eviscerate the very idea of the individual's right to his own private world. DRL
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #175,401
9/21/04 11:42:40 AM
|
Was just at a wake (new thread)
Created as new thread #175400 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=175400|Was just at a wake]
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
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Post #175,317
9/20/04 9:48:53 PM
|
And it's Christian thing to share...
graves, especially if it's for the Kosovars. Ask the Serbs.
Alex
"If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words." -- Philip K. Dick, US science fiction writer
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Post #175,332
9/20/04 11:18:01 PM
|
Okay, that's it
Can you guys move this to religion/metaphysics, please?
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #175,334
9/20/04 11:24:44 PM
|
Well, we tried earlier
And got some of it there, but the rest seems to be hanging on here.
But if I respond to it anymore, I'll move it again, ok?
Brenda
Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
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Post #175,357
9/21/04 3:13:26 AM
|
YOU ALL SUCK
Blimey. If you can't get a bad OO pun, then y'all need to go back to humour school.
Bryce? Inheritance? Geddit?
Sigh.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #176,048
9/23/04 10:56:58 PM
|
Oddly enough, I got it (new thread)
Created as new thread #176047 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=176047|Oddly enough, I got it]
"When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift
[link|http://www.xormad.com:4096/district268|I am from District 268].
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Post #175,428
9/21/04 1:07:16 PM
|
Since when was Bryce meek?
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
|
Post #175,370
9/21/04 9:24:21 AM
|
Almost, but not quite.
The text is saying that abusive boss is no better than unbeliever, and shall be punished by God. Do you disagree with my interpretation?
Not the boss, the slave. The slave is the one to be punished as much as the "unbeliever". This isn't about punishing the boss, it is about punishing the slave for goofing off while the boss was away. 46. The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut in sunder, and will appoint his portion with the unbelievers. The slave is to be punished as though he were a non-believer. So, non-obedient slaves and unbelievers are in the same class. Chris, you listening? Others may argue but imo subjecting people to slavery - and then punishing them for being disobedient to their masters IS advocating violence. bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
|
Post #175,376
9/21/04 9:34:10 AM
|
Read it carefully
The slave was left in charge in boss' absence. He imagined that the boss is not coming back, and started to abuse his position. The boss shall come back and punish the bad slave.
OK, now bring it one level higher. The boss becomes God, the slave left in authority is a ruler, and the other slaves he abused are poor people, widows and orphans. The ruler thinks that God, after giving him authority, is not coming back to demand an account. The ruler is mistaken.
Now, even the "lower" interpretation is not too bad. The bad slave had it coming. The higher is quite good. Do you have any objections?
(This will be my last attempt to explain my interpretation. If this does not get through, nothing will.)
--
... a reference to Presidente Arbusto.
-- [link|http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001417.html|Geoffrey K. Pullum]
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Post #175,538
9/21/04 8:55:56 PM
|
You made my point.
You have interpretted the text to mean something it does not explicitly state. And in so doing, added some humanity/compassion/reason that was not there in plain text.
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
|
Post #175,610
9/22/04 8:59:18 AM
|
Ashton mode on
literally
cha-cha-cha
Ashton Mode off.
--
... a reference to Presidente Arbusto.
-- [link|http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001417.html|Geoffrey K. Pullum]
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Post #175,826
9/22/04 7:11:50 PM
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I like [referent] mode better.
(Corporate Christianity + Bizness) ethics
A match made in heaven
Practicing Hellatio on each other and anyone else trying not to listen to the erotic sounds of pleasuring - amidst the awaiting boiling oil.
er,
cha cha glorp
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Post #174,878
9/17/04 7:36:20 PM
|
Re: Counter-example to your last.
Allow me to repeat myself: The implied assumption is that it's the religious belief at the heart of the matter that is the problem (possible, but unlikely). Most cases do allow allow for a shared base from which to negogiate if you look at the religion closely. I said that it was possible. There are exteme cases where that is a true statement, including, at times, Christianity. (And it's far more wide reaching than simply the Mesopotamian belief systems.) Shared base: "All should be allowed to live." Disagreement again. It's not that we all should be allowed to live. It's that I should be allowed to live. To allow me to live, we pass laws that say people can't kill me and in exchange I won't go around killing them. Religious credo: "I have faith (in Allah, Christ, whomever) and you do not. Hence, your life is worth less in the eyes of God than mine." Counter-example: Regardless of faith, individual argues that your life is worth less than his. How can you 'reason' with him? (Think Sawney Beans, Jeffery Dalmer, Ted Bundy here.) Religion isn't the issue - it's a scapegoat.
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Post #174,905
9/18/04 3:44:00 AM
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No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Our chief weapon is surprise... surprise and fear... fear and surprise...
Our two weapons are fear and surprise... and ruthless efficiency...
Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency... and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope...
Our four... no...
Amongst our weapons...
Amongst our weaponry... are such elements as fear, surprise...
I'll come in again.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #174,919
9/18/04 7:17:17 AM
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Thanks! I was waiting for that ;0)
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
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Post #175,436
9/21/04 1:43:24 PM
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And who commissioned that Inquisition? Church or state?
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Post #174,920
9/18/04 7:17:29 AM
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Been there. Done that.
zIWE to a lesser extent, Sleazy-board to a greater, DimfoWorld to the max. Apoplexy with Nick P. VS Brandioch/Khasim et alia. Sufi stories, Boolean diversions, what is Is and Isn't... and when you start in on The Bible, Revelations, and that deliciously sadistic stuff in Leviticus - from whence deriveth the homo-bashing as perpetuateth unto '04: it's a jillion-word trip into Looney Tunes. Noooooo. Not. Again.
I submit that a culture, society, 'group' possessed of an only miniscule acquaintance with metaphysical ideas, their 'referents' and a few rules that have worked for a couple millennia, to facilitate comprehension: cannot ever get beyond circular arguments for the most obv of reasons; ordinary language has no fucking [referent] from whence to begin.
I've maintainded this POV in each of these arenas (and many others), and the circularity has most often proved epidemic. (I've also seen it possible to evade circularity. Elsewhere.) But, just as we "learn nothing from history.." so also will not any participants in one circle jerk ever bother to discover that there Are means for communicating 'meta-views'.
So screw the pointless employment of Boolean IF/THEN digital logic in search of the Ontological Proof of God cha cha cha. This thread isn't about that; it was about - the pernicious 'thread' of fanatical associations with that idea inculcated into helpless kiddies - Belief as in,
I know what I believe. I will continue to articulate what I believe and what I believe \ufffd I believe what I believe is right.
-\ufffd George W. Bush, in Rome, July 22, 2001 Sola Fides? via Giovanni
..because That is the axis upon which the circularity spins.
You teach a kid that THIS is "thinking".. (or, Gawd-forbid: reasoning) and it may take decades or a whole life, never learning to think beyond that unHoly box from childhood. This passed-on affliction has led to virtually uninterrupted warfare amidst the dueling I-Believes since (the surviving) reporters began to list the I-Believes in those war histories our minds are now too numb to remember; too [whatever] to reread. There Have Been SO Many.
What could be more obvious than that, Corporate Religion Kills humans?
If that is not obvious by inspection, would you like to buy a copy of the new Guaranteed-Secure Windows: The Final Edition?
(Let's not even get started Again on, "What is 'truth' or Truth"; the species, for the most part aren't ready even for the "What is" part.)
{sheesh}
Humankind cannot bear very much reality
TS Eliot
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