Post #174,861
9/17/04 6:06:15 PM
9/17/04 6:07:13 PM
|
You sure?
For it is religion alone that causes that subset to hold that they are more "God-like". Hmmm. It's the religion that causes this, right? It's not that some people are simply self-righteous by nature and believe that thier own beliefs are necessarily superior to those of others? I assume that by eliminating religion from a socio-political system, that atrocities on biblical scale don't happen - that the flawed human psyche doesn't simply use other ideology as an excuse for atrocity? Or is it, perhaps, that by assigning blame for human horrors on 'religion' (or capitalism, etc, etc), that you are simply avoiding human responsibility?
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
Edited by imric
Sept. 17, 2004, 06:07:13 PM EDT
You sure?
For it is religion alone that causes that subset to hold that they are more "God-like". Hmmm. It's the religion that causes this, right? It's not that some people are simply self-righteous by nature and believe that thier own beliefs are necessarily superior to those of others? I assume that by eliminating religion from a socio-political system, that atrocities on biblical scale don't happen - that the flawed human psyche doesn't simply use other ideology as an excuse for atrocity? Or is it, perhaps, that by assigning blame for human horrors on 'religion' (or capitalism, etc, etc), that you are simply avoiding human resposibility?
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #174,864
9/17/04 6:10:46 PM
|
Very well stated
I said as much about Hitler in another post, he believed himself to be Godlike and was better than even God. He wasn't on a religious quest, his was personal and his desire.
Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
|
Post #174,876
9/17/04 7:32:14 PM
|
I am condemning that which nurtures...
the notion that one set of humans is better than any other. And nothing, absolutely nothing does that more effectively than religion.
I believe it is obvious to even the most casual observer that religion more strongly inculcates that notion of superiority than any other thing one human can 'believe' in. And once the "religious experience" leads one to believe in that special superiority that comes from "knowing the One True God" it is a very difficult, nigh on impossible, notion to shake.
And, to my earlier point, no person in possession of a superiority complex would ever deign to negogiate with one of the "lessor" humans.
Sorry, but history is on my side. Greater harm to mankind has been done "in the name of God" than in the name of anything else.
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
|
Post #174,883
9/17/04 8:01:23 PM
|
"History is on my side"
How... evocative!
And yet - you haven't answered my questions about your belief that it is religion that "inculates superiority" and how you blame religion instead of our own flawed human nature. You have shown no reasoning that a 'superiority complex' is caused/inculated by religion. No link between cause and effect that isn't filled just as admirably by 'ideology'.
Neither do you bother to respond to recent history and the fact that some of the greatest horrors to strike humanity were performed by humans that WEREN'T religiously motivated - or were Stalin, Hitler, et al following the Bible/Koran/Torah without telling anyone? Perhaps WWI was some sort of mesopotamian crusade? How about the US Civil War?
Believe what you like. Hide from human nature. I can see that you are not discussing, but rather preaching your 'superior' ideology.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #174,888
9/17/04 8:18:35 PM
|
Alexander of Macedonia,
the inventor of biological warfare. Genghis Khan who slaughtered entire cities. Romans who did same earlier. Such religious personages, all of them.
--
... a reference to Presidente Arbusto.
-- [link|http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001417.html|Geoffrey K. Pullum]
|
Post #174,902
9/18/04 2:22:01 AM
|
Religion is not the only motivation for slaughter.
But, it's right up there. Let's think about some recent events.
The "Chosen People" (and who is superior to that?) are slaughtering Palestinian Arabs every chance they get (and vice versa). Exclude their faith and these people are otherwise indistinguishable.
The "troubles" of Northern Ireland. Prey tell what is the difference between the two sides.
The Indian Hindu slaughter of Indian Muslims and vice versa. And, of course, the perpetual fighting between India and Pakistan over Kashmir.
The Indonesian Muslim slaughter of East Timor Christians.
Genocide of Darfur blacks by Sudanese Arabs.
God is on our side!
Alex
"If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words." -- Philip K. Dick, US science fiction writer
|
Post #174,925
9/18/04 8:58:00 AM
|
And, of course
None of these people would find other reasons to slaughter one another if religion were eliminated, right?
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #174,940
9/18/04 12:39:40 PM
|
The "chosen people" do have many more
opportunities than they actually use to "slaughter" Palestinians. They miss awful lot of them, for the bloodthirsty murderers that they are. Palestinians, on the other hand, don't miss a single one offered to them, such good fighters.
As for difference between Irish and English - I think it's more about one side being poor and conquered. I won't be surprized if the religious difference is the consequence of the older hatred.
Hindu and Muslims have been at each other throats since the time of Muslim conquest of India. No one can find heads and tails of that oen any more, but it started as conquest, even if it had some religious mutterings as well.
Don't know much about Indonesia.
Darfur is another complex shithole with history. Thenatives rose up first, and started to fight for independence. What we see is a pushback from Khartoum, magnified to genocidal proportions. All this shit has nothing to do with religion, but rather with power and land pocession.
--
... a reference to Presidente Arbusto.
-- [link|http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001417.html|Geoffrey K. Pullum]
|
Post #174,914
9/18/04 6:11:33 AM
|
"You Have to be Carefully Taught
to Hate" is my response to 'nature-or-nurture' as it was Rodgers', Hammerstein's in South Pacific. Author of this remembrance lost: > When I was little, my parents listened to a lot of music (consequently, so did I). One song from the musical "South Pacific" for some reason always struck a chord with me - no pun intended. In the musical, Lt. Cable, who falls in love with a native girl on the island and is forced to confront the fact that he is himself prejudiced, sings a song about just that. It's called
> "You've Got to be Carefully Taught".
>
> You've got to be taught to hate and fear
> You've got to be taught from year to year
> It's got to be drummed in your dear little ear.
> You've got to be carefully taught.
>
> You've got to be taught to be afraid
> Of people whose eyes are oddly made
> and people whose skin is a different shade
> You've got to be carefully taught.
>
> You've got to be taught
> before it's too late
> before you are six or seven or eight
> To hate all the people your relatives hate
> You've got to be carefully taught.
>
> South Pacific was released as a movie in 1958. Haven't we learned anything since then? Rhetorical question, that; it is now affirmed that, the only thing we learn from history is that we do not learn from history.Author probably Googleable. [BTW - R & H made it a contract condition; if you wanted to do a production of South Pacific, you could not omit this song.] Inculcation of Children. This is the means and it is the means of every religion. 'Causality' is a cute concept, rarely discoverable re homo-saps, but handy in physics.. if you don't try to cover more than about two bodies at a time. Childhood inculcation is the regular means of corrupting the innocent with Corporate Religio-speak - as if it were unthinkable to live without the local flavor of assorted and selected tenets, almost every one of which collection begins (or ends) with a form of, Our Clan is Superior because We Believe ___.The message that it is somehow 'normal' to hate The Other Who is Not Me/Mine is drilled into an impressionable mind; often in direct words, augmented by an observation of 'adult' actual behavior. Nobody has said it more concisely than Rogers and Hammerstein IMO, and in most-contemporary argot. The next stage of tedious argument must enter into the archetypes and hoary formulations of Jungian or {ugh} pop 'psych', and on towards the metaphysical. I rest case prior to that drudgery. I Who Be
The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world.
-- Georgia Harkness in "Conflicts in Religious Thought" (1929) via Alex
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.
-- Blaise Pascal also via Alex
276. FALWELL'S ARGUMENT FROM METEORS
1) God hates gay people.
2) God is merciful.
3) Disney World held a Gay Day parade.
4) God could have punished them by sending earthquakes, hurricanes, or possibly a meteor down on Florida.
5) He didn't.
6) Therefore, (1) and (2) are correct.
7) Therefore, God exists.
289. ARGUMENT FROM COMMUNISM
1) All communists are atheists.
2) All communists are bad.
3) Therefore they are wrong.
4) The moral majority is are theists and non-communists.
5) Therefore they are good.
6) Therefore they are right.
7) This argument does so make sense!
8) Therefore, God exists.
309. ARGUMENT FROM INCONSISTENCY (POLKINGHORNE'S MILLION-DOLLAR ARGUMENT)
1) If the Bible were cooked up by fakers, it would have been perfect and seamless and without any apparent inconsistencies, to make it look like the word of God.
2) But the Bible IS inconsistent, erroneous, and plain goofy in many places.
3) Therefore, the Bible is NOT the product of fakers.
4) It must be the word of God. Amen.
5) Therefore, God exists.
|
Post #174,916
9/18/04 6:41:36 AM
|
For Those Too Lazy To Google
[link|http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm|http://www.godlessge...INKS/GodProof.htm]
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
|
Post #174,922
9/18/04 7:20:16 AM
|
See Jesus 'quote' in this thread re:The Civil War.
It was quite common for the South to quote the many passages in Christian handbooks (The Bible) about "slaves obeying their masters" as a justification for slavery.
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
|
Post #174,923
9/18/04 8:20:30 AM
|
See my first post, re justification.
Justification comes AFTER motivation.
Indeed, slavery was not the reason for the war.
The Federal government was gathering powers the states traditionally exercised to itself.
Centralized versus Decentralized power was the main issue of the war.
People can (and do) use ANY 'cause', ANY ideology the same way.
It's not the religion.
It's the people.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #174,986
9/18/04 9:28:05 PM
|
Well yes - that's 'true'
on an elevated, isolated Scale. I guess.
But then you are intentionally eliding the 'promise' that these Holy Scriptures contain Revealed recipes for an [usually, The Only] acceptable life. That is purportedly the reason that adults feel no remorse in injecting this stuff directly into innocents. The Good Life.
Which you can have IF.. you follow all the recipes.. and their contradictions:
Even where there are several volumes (an 'early' One with lots of gore - prior to a God-Man writing down stuff and then an er, Revised One, after various human-summits met with a Representative and.. and..)
Even where multiple translations, edits, transliterations and -- 'removals' have occurred since a particular Day 1.
(Say.. elision of all mention of one 'St. Thomas' in the Xian variations on those themes.)
Even so.
But the recipes also require that you are to deem yourself akin to a Tribble.
While those fictional creatures were merely born pregnant .. You are born in/on/from sin and btw: your bodily functions are ummm dreck [not you, Dan] and Don't You Forget It.
We'll Show You How
(not to forget your body is shit and so, mostly Are You - 'til we Fix You Up)
[Of course details differ amongst the stew of competing Mine's-the-Only RIGHT One], to be found all over the planet. And yes, some are more benign that others, especially about that ingrained guilt stuff - ever a personal choice I guess -- if a kid Had One, early on.
cha cha cha
We feed this pabulum to innocent kiddies. And they grow up passing it on - Nothing exceeds like excess.
But you say, "it's the 'people'". Well, Yes, It Is.
Nice try.
Where there is correlation of the effects from "a way of inculcating a certain kind of Madness" into malleable innocents: you cannot create a very cool apologia for "that which corrupts human possibilities", and which has demonstrably formed the rationale for most of the thousands of wars.. (of those actually recorded, sorta).
Now, Can You?
As to the slavery/US thing - yes of course; like .. "we invaded to free the Iraqis from one of those horrible dictators (we regularly used to? help along)." Yes, the "slavery" issue was tertiary or lower - at first, aka WMDs .. no wait: "we wanted to Help the People. Forget the WMDs in place and aimed at Iowa City" er, never mind about that.
But folks quoting dem dere Scripture-thingies "as justification" for that horror of slavery does, 'I Believe':
QED about the utter nefariousness of human books masquerading as [the Absolute Speaks at 11].
[Coda]
Da Capo - jump to beginning of the musical passage
Can a species free itself of suicidal programming? (Would everyone have to get-it at once?)
We'll see. Let us prey.
|
Post #174,999
9/18/04 11:50:25 PM
|
Believe it or not, I understand and somewhat agree
with some of your your points.
After all, dogma built on religion has been used for the social control of people for a long time. And it's fact that gospels were picked and chosen by men for inclusion in the Christian bible, at least. And there are multiple translations.
You can willfully interpret religious texts as ridiculous if you like.
You mock the religious for not following YOUR beliefs, also. You cannot deny that you do this, regularly.
You show, PERSONALLY, the same flaws you attribute to the religious; therefore the flaw of dividing and injuring people because they don't share belief systems with you is NOT 'caused' by religion, but is, in fact, a flaw in our human nature.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #175,019
9/19/04 2:59:44 AM
|
'Religion' oft has little or zippo to do with 'spirituality'
Evidently so in the US (and lately so in Islam). My personal POV is my own; I believe it ought to remain so. (Believe too, that Believers are enjoined from parading their Cosmic hints; it's deemed counter to their own teachings, I hear.) Irony is the watchword in this yuga! Arguing a negative does not infect one with the positive.
There is much to mock in a predominately Social organization which increasingly is associated with a Political stance. Need I list examples as created the common phrase, "The Religious Right"? Another correlation, or is it just YAN coincidence (?) Let's not even do "Religious Conservative", OK?
I have 'mocked', lampooned/whatever equally - those whose religion is self-defined so as to exclude (whatever 'spiritual' might mean). The mechanical universe idea is no different from any other religious club's variant. In the Advertising/Celebrity society, everything Important soon is reduced to YAN blab-word. I don't accept responsibility for the discomfort produced if a one IDs self, confusing clan-loyalty with metaphysical pursuits - and waxes smug about Believing the One Truth. That is a one who mocks self effectively, without any help from moi.
Perhaps all undefinable like the pineapple: Spirituality exists or can exist within homo-sap, and was somewhere present at the formation of even most Corp religions. [I would except a few modern techno- ones, especially the one successfully spawned to win a bet about 'creating a new religion'".] It has a rather impressive amount of Capital in its coffers. Shall we call this one a Success?
But since nothing re spirtuality can conceivably be 'argued', there isn't much that can be said, either. Fortunately too, we need not anticipate a new E-product, a litmus test to prove Sincerity, Honesty, Integrity and Truth.
(OTOH.. it is '04. It might sell Well (especially if it confirms what one wished to find.))
One thing is 'Certain' if anything Is: nothing remotely like 'spirituality' would settle for M.A.D. and condone the creation of massive planet-destroying arsenals, dedicated precisely to: making sure that Our Side/God vaporizes Their Side/God, No Matter What.
The Fact of there being such Sides - is, I aver - confirmation that Corp religions have zippo to do with any metaphysical Truths whatsoever, no matter what their color glossies advertise, nor the magnificence of the Cathedrals built by God-frightened serfs.
All who take part in this terminal illusion (which nukes epitomize, simultaneously satirize) - practice a 'religion' which has no spiritual connection. It might take Cantor's nondenumerable 'comparative infinities' to demonstrate this to the excessively-numerate but mainly-uncivilized; hmmm, maybe it's the sort of exercise over which some folks might spend years, building an algorithm. Best \ufffd the sucker.
I did not murder Language, and I do what I can to resuscitate a few good words, where possible. ie Not Guilty as charged.
moi
|
Post #175,029
9/19/04 8:39:04 AM
9/19/04 8:40:55 AM
|
Uh huh.
Believe too, that Believers are enjoined from parading their Cosmic hints; it's deemed counter to their own teachings, I hear Interesting generalization. Common ground for all religion? For the religious? No. I do believe you made it up to fit your own dogma. I don't accept responsibility for the discomfort produced if a one IDs self, confusing clan-loyalty with metaphysical pursuits - and waxes smug about Believing the One Truth. Yet you wax 'smug' against those who believe in the God of Abraham. You do it consistently, and I cannot remember you producing a 'disclaimer' that admits that those following that path can ever be 'spiritual'. Indeed, for the rest of your post, you imply that this path is a 'corp-religion' and has no connection with spirituality. Not Guilty I'm afraid not, Ash. You have simply tried to rationalize why your mockery is proper. You are completely guilty of this one. Admit it and move on.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
Edited by imric
Sept. 19, 2004, 08:40:55 AM EDT
|
Post #175,065
9/19/04 2:03:12 PM
|
A little more explanation please?
Believe too, that Believers are enjoined from parading their Cosmic hints; it's deemed counter to their own teachings, I hear
Interesting generalization. Common ground for all religion? For the religious? No. I do believe you made it up to fit your own dogma. Imric, you seem to understand what Ashton was saying, could you clarify it better for me? Is what he's saying is that Believers (i.e. Christians, etc), don't practice their religion, or that they don't force it on people, or what? Not sure what he's saying, and not sure the dictionary would be of much help this time around. Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
|
Post #175,067
9/19/04 2:21:33 PM
|
With Ash, it can be sometimes hard,
but what I took him to mean is that he thinks that religion discourages public talk about personal spiritual experiences. Kinda has to be, since Martin Luther broke the hold the church had over the scriptures - I confess to ignorance as to method the Koran and the Torah is 'revealed' to believers.
I don't speak for him, of course, and if my interpretation is wrong, Ash, my apologies. I dislike intepreting posts for others; it's too much like putting words in thier mouths...
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #175,069
9/19/04 2:35:12 PM
|
Trust me, I know that
My paperback dictionary is almost worn out from grabbing it to look up words in his posts, hehehe. I started using the online one, it's less damaging. ;)
Thanks for that explanation... I think I thought something entirely different. I thought he meant that religious people weren't prone to tell others about their faith, that it would be seen as "preaching" to them.
Actually, we can and do tell others about our faith, but the difference is we don't push them to accept it or keep pushing it on them when they don't want us to. And we don't "judge" them, as in treat them bad or differently because they don't accept it. Like it says in the Bible, if they don't listen, shake the dust off your feet and go on, or something like that. I don't know the scripture, I'm not that good at remembering those. (I think it's because they are all numbers hehehe)
Maybe Ashton will enlighten us as to what he really meant, or if either one of u is right.
Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
|
Post #175,111
9/20/04 4:20:23 AM
|
Heh.. I 'splain how ya can end war n'stuff (new thread)
Created as new thread #175110 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=175110|Heh.. I 'splain how ya can end war n'stuff]
[link|http://wiw.org/~drz/tom.lehrer/evening.html| And.. we.. will.. all go together when we go] (trumpet call, refrain)
|
Post #174,990
9/18/04 10:25:53 PM
|
I see nothing wrong with that posistion
Justification comes AFTER motivation. People can (and do) use ANY 'cause', ANY ideology the same way.
It's not the religion.
It's the people. I see nothing wrong with that posistion as long as you apply it consistantly. If nothing bad can be attributed to religion because the people where that way anyway, then nothing good can be attributed to religion either. Religion becomes nothing more then a set of empty gestures you go through once a week because you don't like sleeping in Sunday. As far as I can tell the truth is much more complex. Not all people that say they are motivated by religion really are. Some are simply telling the tale they need to get people to go along, others have picked or created a religion based on it approving what they where going to do anyway. But not all of them, some of them really do have faith. No matter how wrong you might think their beliefs, they are doing what they think is right. Nor is all the good done in the name of religion motivated by religion, many people working at religious charities would still be doing charitable work if the religion did not exist. In many cases it is even more complex then that. People motivations and beliefs do change over time. Many preachers seem to wander between really believing in themselves and faking it. In other cases people join a church because it is convenient, only to find themselves caught up in the church's posistion, for good or evil. Religion can be a motivation for good or evil, but people tend to attribute either to much or to little. In general religion is neither the primary motivator nor is it negligable. For any specific person, you must consider the deapth of their faith to see if it is true or not. Jay
|
Post #175,000
9/18/04 11:52:57 PM
|
*smile*
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #174,932
9/18/04 10:07:57 AM
|
Well, I consider that...
the greatest harm I know which was done to man was Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and they weren't destroyed in the name of God.
So I can't agree with you that history is on your side in this issue.
Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
|
Post #174,945
9/18/04 1:10:34 PM
|
You'd be wrong
there are many far worse examples than those two. In terms of people killed/maimed, they're pretty penny ante in fact.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
|
