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New No, that's an observation of an overall pattern.
And studiously ignoring the larger picture is not a rebuttal.

The evidence for my interpretation of events is all gathered neatly into one untidy bundle [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|here]. No matter where you start browsing this material, the conclusion is inescapable, provided you don't stop when the pattern begins to become uncomfortably clear. Non-PC views are marginalized, even censored. Meanwhile, stupid crap about zits and booze and kind bud and how it's America's fault you can't get laid somehow manage to float to the top.

Carnage4Life is either a shill or a brainwashed idiot. And for a brainwashed idiot, he's putting a fair amount of effort into things. Granted, it's mostly cut-and-paste from standard Microsoft FUD releases, but he still has to format and spellcheck all that. Maybe it would be more to the point to say that there's a lot of effort behind what he and his kind are doing.

How about this, Karsten - instead of calling him a shill, I'll call him a brainwashed idiot. Would you prefer that? I can give him the benefit of the doubt about his motives, or about his intelligence, but not both. Take your pick.

And the submission queue is only broken in the sense that Athenian democracy was broken on the day it condemned Socrates to death. From a strictly technical point of view, it's working more or less as designed. But the fundamental concept is, well, it's not exactly ordered liberty, is it?

I'd say that Rusty's experiment in direct democracy serves as a reminder of just why it is we don't allow those under the age of eighteen to vote.

And saying that it's better than Slashdot is hardly a compelling defense. Not that I'm conceding that point. K5 is awful in a completely different way than Slashdot, thus making direct comparison meaningless.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
New Reading this...
...reminds me of a very angry fieldmouse. Dunno why.

If you don't *like* K5, don't *read* it.

Peter
Clue-bearing Shill For Hire
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
New Where to begin
As has been pointed out to you, twice, C4L's hardly a newcomer to K5. I wouldn't say he's an example of K5 being overrun, or a sudden explosion in membership is to blame.

Don't get me wrong: I think his article is lukewarm at best. For the nth time, there's the ghost of a point. He (and several cohorts posting in comments) rather more or less precisely manage to miss a few key issues. On the other hand, he's also stating what's pretty much an irrefutable truth: open source, "bazaar" style development, isn't enough to ensure high-quality code. Some people manage to lose track of that fact. But the viewpoint isn't as prevasively held as C4L seems to think. His essay is rather strongly shaded.

Is the guy brainwashed? I don't know. He's a college kid, he spent the summer at Microsoft, he got to meet Bill Gates. That has an influence. But he's still in his formative years. I expect his opinions on things are subject to revision for a while yet.

Regarding the submission queue, if you'll actually read (gee, am I asking so much from y'all, twice in a day?) the Meatball Wiki material, the voting system doesn't work as originally implmeneted -- a delta system (the K5 SubQue voting mechanism) tends toward no decision as the voting population increases. This can be demonstrated. It's a statistical outcome.

Cutting to the chase, the system I suggested would be to have an editorial roundtable for stories to sit -- for anything from an hour or two to a couple of days as it was revised and targeted at an appropriate section. Then the story would be pitched to the main site, based on the same five-point moderation scale as comments. Sufficiently high mods would hit front page, lower would be section, lower than that, diary. I'm not opposed to a public-input system. I am opposed to systems that don't work: Slashdot moderation, K5 sub queue. The distinction should be clear.

I'm not convinced that a fully open queue is the right way to run a site. It would be cool to have sections with editors -- again, they could compete against each other. Give a mix of public votes between slightly controlled systems may achieve the best results. There's a literature on group decision making you may want to aquaint yourself with -- direct democracy is not the only, and certainly not the best in all circumnstances, way to go.
--
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
     MS shill spreading FUD on Kuro5hin - (marlowe) - (33)
         K5 has gotten too popular. - (static) - (15)
             And one that many Usenet groups went down before that - (ben_tilly) - (10)
                 Yes, I was also thinking something along those lines. -NT - (static)
                 Have to admit - (kmself) - (7)
                     True enough. - (static)
                     An admission of my own - (ben_tilly) - (5)
                         No hard feelings - (rusty) - (4)
                             Decisions, decisions - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                                 Are you on the high side of the chasm? - (wharris2) - (2)
                                     A more readable version - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                         Much better -NT - (wharris2)
                 Leading to an unpleasant dilemna. - (marlowe)
             Nah. - (pwhysall) - (3)
                 Yah. You're right. - (static) - (2)
                     The ultimate test is to see how they - (tablizer) - (1)
                         Okay, then. I'll be watching. -NT - (static)
         Gee, that's not a conclusion you just jumped to, is it? - (kmself) - (14)
             Conclusions jumped to long ago... - (rusty) - (9)
                 Hey, glad to see ya :) - (pwhysall) - (3)
                     Re: Hey, glad to see ya :) - (rusty) - (2)
                         Re: Hey, glad to see ya :) - (pwhysall) - (1)
                             Don't forget INTERCAL - (admin)
                 Smells like ad hominem. - (marlowe) - (4)
                     Speaking of sniping at the messenger... - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                         An Ad Hominem for an Ad Hominem - (rusty)
                     I love archaeology. - (pwhysall) - (1)
                         Ah.. fossils. - (Ashton)
             No, that's an observation of an overall pattern. - (marlowe) - (2)
                 Reading this... - (pwhysall)
                 Where to begin - (kmself)
             Nope kinda like bens answer, went and wasnt amused/enthused -NT - (boxley)
         I read the article in question, I am not a MS$ fan - (boxley) - (1)
             Missing the forest for the trees. - (marlowe)

Dad jokes are a socially acceptable way to fart on people.
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