houghtful commentary on gibsons movie, the Passion

Post #144,953 by boxley 3/8/04 10:12:16 PM Reply	houghtful commentary on gibsons movie, the Passion [link\|http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull%26cid=1078373360025\|http://www.jpost.com...cid=1078373360025] Islam means "submission" (to God). Christianity is built on being "saved" through faith. Judaism, by contrast, stubbornly tries to preserve free will and personal responsibility in the face of God's omnipotence. Gibson has given us the chance to talk about alternative ethical models. The Christian idea is that we inherited our sins and need to believe in somebody who died to get us out of them. The Jewish idea is that, while God is the ultimate judge, both sin and atonement lie critically in the zone of individual human choice. thanx, bill when I was young I envisioned myself as the embodiment of Trinity, Now I realize I have turned into the Bambino questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #144,963 by drewk 3/9/04 12:06:17 AM 3/9/04 12:38:48 AM Reply	Ever see 'Dogma'? The Christian idea is that we inherited our sins and need to believe in somebody who died to get us out of them. Dogma was typical of thoughtful movies about Christianity in that it raised uncomfortable questions about scripture, and did it while getting the scripture right. And also typical in that most Christian organizations hated it. One of my favorite parts was the statement from Rufus[1] that the problem with modern Christians[2] is that they have a belief, but what Jesus taught was an idea. "People will die for a belief, or kill for it. But they can discuss an idea." -- [Edit] Found the actual quote: Rufus: He still digs humanity, but it bothers Him to see the shit that gets carried out in His name -- wars, bigotry, but especially the factioning of all religions. He said humanity took a good idea and, like always, built a belief structure on it. Bethany: Having beliefs isn't good? Rufus: I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. Life should be malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can't generate. Life becomes stagnant. ... A belief's a dangerous thing, Bethany. People die for it. People kill for it. [1] The 13th apostle, played by Chris Rock. [2] They focused on Catholics in the movie. === Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001. Edited by drewk March 9, 2004, 12:38:48 AM EST Expand All History
Post #144,968 by deSitter 3/9/04 6:37:58 AM Reply	More - anti-Jew stance still a winner Hate them Jews! It's a winning strategy. One day we'll venerate Hitler. "Those Germans weren't such bad people you know! Their soldiers were tough! They just took orders! Holocaust? Sure a few Hebe - uh - Jews died, but hey it's war. And any way they were dirty Polish and Russian..sorry." [link\|http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/07/arts/07RICH.html\|http://www.nytimes.c.../arts/07RICH.html] There is no doubt at all that PoMG is anti-Semitic. The country is dead. It leaves one to ask why a country with every conceivable advantage would just piss it all away as if on automatic. Is this the curse of the Grandfathers? I keep getting these visions of the native Americans reinhabiting their own lands that were stolen with such forthright Christian rapine. There is no bottom to the hatred in the Christian heart. This must eventually induce its self-destruction since it has no valid organizing principle. -drl
Post #144,983 by boxley 3/9/04 9:06:38 AM Reply	interesting point made With respect like this, Jews hardly need any disrespect. Besides, the idea that Jews control the media is disproved by Mr. Gibson's own media campaign. Just as he kept most Jewish journalists out of early screenings of "The Passion," so he cherrypicks his interviewers now. No Jewish journalist on network television (and there are some) has been permitted to question him thus far \ufffd a press manipulation by Mr. Gibson's flacks that is worthy of further investigation. interesting point, thanx, bill when I was young I envisioned myself as the embodiment of Trinity, Now I realize I have turned into the Bambino questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #144,990 by a6l6e6x 3/9/04 10:00:40 AM Reply	Ah, the Bush technique of selecting press questioners. Alex Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom ... the argument of tyrants ... the creed of slaves. -- William Pitt, addressing the British House of Commons (1783)
Post #145,005 by Nightowl 3/9/04 11:56:08 AM Reply	I think you've flipped. Nothing you say makes much sense these days, and all of it is biased. (shakes her head). Nightowl >8# "To become different from what we are, we must have some awareness of what we are." Eric Hoffer
Post #145,006 by pwhysall 3/9/04 12:02:01 PM Reply	C'est l'eau de Saint Louis Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #145,090 by Ashton 3/9/04 6:44:12 PM Reply	Demur One can read through the anger; nothing wrong with his syntax -- and if you don't see "The Jews Killed My Guy" in this wallow in applied How-to crucifixion tips for the kiddies; you don't recall hundreds of comparable fillips from say, the last 50 years? Why, WTF have You been reading: comics? (And if you don't see the admiration for the SS, "the discipline", the Law n'Order (so beloved by Reactionaries of all stripes) -- as might lead to a renaissance of Nazi worship in Murica 2K -- then once again we appear to live and observe, in quite different 'countries'.) Anti-Semitism in Murica has been a feature/bug since I first had to ask an adult, "what's a 'hebe/kike/___'??" Usually it was about envy, and envy is the Basis for the Religion of Capitalism - yup, translate: "Those hebes are good at making money", to Merchant of Venice - the seed corn for all later slanders. My pound-of-flesh du jour PS - at 20+% APR - how would one compare your friendly CC Corporation with.. other usurers (like Shylock?)
Post #145,106 by a6l6e6x 3/9/04 7:28:57 PM Reply	Did that help, Owl? Alex Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom ... the argument of tyrants ... the creed of slaves. -- William Pitt, addressing the British House of Commons (1783)
Post #145,320 by Nightowl 3/10/04 1:53:28 PM 3/10/04 1:54:16 PM Reply	Re: Did that help, Owl? Not sure... I wasn't referring to anything about the Passion, I don't read much about it, I can't stomach it. I was referring to Ross, and only Ross and the way he has been posting lately. So I have no clue what Ashton is blathering on about, as usual, so in that respect, nope, it didn't help. Nightowl >8# P.S. And I have no idea what C'est l'eau de Saint Louis means either. Edit: added P.S. "Don't be a cynic and disconsolate preacher. Don't bewail and moan. Omit the negative propositions. Challenge us with incessant affirmatives. Don't waste yourself in rejection, or bark against the bad, but chant the beauty of the good." Ralph Waldo Emerson Edited by Nightowl March 10, 2004, 01:54:16 PM EST Expand All History
Post #145,329 by hnick 3/10/04 2:11:57 PM Reply	The french means, more or less It's the SL water which refers to a comment made by someone else, CRC maybe.
Post #145,321 by Nightowl 3/10/04 1:57:50 PM Reply	Sorry Ashton, But I've NEVER seen admiration for the Nazis or SS and their discipline, from ANYONE other than other Nazis or SS members and germans in that era. I realize in hindsight that Ross was probably being sarcastic, but man, his post comes across like he believes Hitler should be venerated, i.e. 1 : to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference 2 : to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotion, and that was what I first got from it. Nightowl >8# "Don't be a cynic and disconsolate preacher. Don't bewail and moan. Omit the negative propositions. Challenge us with incessant affirmatives. Don't waste yourself in rejection, or bark against the bad, but chant the beauty of the good." Ralph Waldo Emerson
Post #145,330 by deSitter 3/10/04 2:16:34 PM Reply	Re: Sorry Ashton, Ever watch the History Channel? There is a subtle respect for the German military, a group of people who have created more misery than any other body in world history by an enormous margin. Sometimes I feel it, and I know better. "I actually feel sorry for those poor Hun bastards. We're going to murder those sons of bitches by the bushel! We're going to rip out their living guts, and use them to grease our tank treads! We're going to go through them like shit through a goose!" - GS Patton -drl
Post #145,331 by Nightowl 3/10/04 2:24:10 PM Reply	You forget, Ross I don't have Cable, I can't watch the History Channel. Nightowl >8# "Don't be a cynic and disconsolate preacher. Don't bewail and moan. Omit the negative propositions. Challenge us with incessant affirmatives. Don't waste yourself in rejection, or bark against the bad, but chant the beauty of the good." Ralph Waldo Emerson
Post #145,333 by deSitter 3/10/04 2:28:44 PM Reply	Fair enough [link\|http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Nazi+memorabilia&btnG=Google+Search\|Nazi Memorabilia] [link\|http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=lang_en%7Clang_fr%7Clang_de%7Clang_it&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=shoah+memorabilia&btnG=Google+Search&lr=lang_en%7Clang_fr%7Clang_de%7Clang_it\|Shoah Memorabilia] You tell me which is more popular. -drl
Post #145,340 by Nightowl 3/10/04 2:40:22 PM 3/10/04 2:41:38 PM Reply	Okay Based on that search, Nazi memorabilia is more popular with 38, 200 hits. But I never heard of a Shoah which gives 1,570 hits. However a search on Holocaust Memorabilia turns up 22,600.hits. and one on Jewish Memorabilia turns up 60,300 hits. It depends on what words you use, really. I myself have German and Nazi war memorabilia, but I also have American, French, British, and Italian. I was unable to procure any Russian at the time. I don't know if I have any Holocaust stuff, but I wasn't trying to get any, just originally, the miltary stuff. I almost owned a flag taken from the top of the French Embassy in France when the Americans liberated it, which was signed by all the liberators, but my mom refused to allow me to purchase it. So it's a matter of opinion. But don't get me wrong, OWNING memorabilia from WWI and Nazi Germany, (mostly I have money and a few other little things like an Iron Cross), does not in any way, shape or form mean I honor them, venerate Hitler, or hold high respect. It was just part of a collection I was amassing at the time. Edit: I also do not know that I would consider the Internet a good judge of popularity or respect of a given concept or thing. Nightowl >8# "Don't be a cynic and disconsolate preacher. Don't bewail and moan. Omit the negative propositions. Challenge us with incessant affirmatives. Don't waste yourself in rejection, or bark against the bad, but chant the beauty of the good." Ralph Waldo Emerson Edited by Nightowl March 10, 2004, 02:41:38 PM EST Expand All History
Post #145,335 by inthane-chan 3/10/04 2:30:33 PM Reply	There's a certain mindset in the grognard crew... (Quickie definition - Grognard == wargamer) that the German army was something to be respected. I've never quite understood this fascination myself. "I'll stop calling this crew 'Orwellian' when they stop using 1984 as an operations manual." - J. Bradford DeLong
Post #145,339 by deSitter 3/10/04 2:37:53 PM Reply	Strangely.. ..their won-loss record is lousy. The Hessians got their asses thoroughly kicked at Trenton without killing a single Colonist, changing the course of the American Revolution. Napoleon I ran circles around them and the Austrians, the Franco-Prussian war was ultimately a draw, and we know the rest. In terms of a football analogy, the Germans are "Air Coryell", and tend to lose by scores like 42-38 - if you kill enough of them they will eventually stop making suicidal charges. -drl
Post #146,279 by cwbrenn 3/15/04 3:24:08 PM Reply	That's a crock, de No anti-semitism in that movie. The most hateful people in the movie are the ROMAN CENTURIONS. Have you seen it? "We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?" - Edward Young
Post #146,282 by boxley 3/15/04 3:34:51 PM Reply	read the book, :-) and got a question for ya as a true beleiver, did you find the movie uplifting in spirit? thanks, Bill when I was young I envisioned myself as the embodiment of Trinity, Now I realize I have turned into the Bambino questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #146,283 by cwbrenn 3/15/04 3:37:47 PM Reply	I did, in fact. I thought it was powerful, moving, and extremely well done. There were parts of it that were odd (not sure about the whole devil-baby thing) but on the whole it was a remarkable film. I wrote a review of it on my own blog ([link\|http://www.baptistdeathray.com/archives/000006.html\|http://www.baptistde...hives/000006.html]) for anyone who is interested... but if not, I'll just say again that I found it a wholly remarkable film. "We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?" - Edward Young
Post #146,289 by boxley 3/15/04 4:03:20 PM Reply	good review I have no intention of watching the thing, I know the story and seeing it portrayed "accurately" is just a tad boring, one torture scene lasting 15 minutes to set up a story line is okay, anything over that is overkill. Ive always enjoyed the life of Brian myself. I have been curious about the reaction of those whose faith surrounds the acts depicted in the movie, thanks for sharing. thanx, bill when I was young I envisioned myself as the embodiment of Trinity, Now I realize I have turned into the Bambino questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #146,284 by deSitter 3/15/04 3:43:59 PM Reply	Re: That's a crock, de Apparently there was not much to see. The evidence is: 1) The people speak Aramaic, which is old Hebrew. Yes, they spoke Aramaic in those times. Yes, it is historically correct. But the modern viewer immediately thinks "Israel". 2) The "bad" Jews have a charactistic stereotypical physiognomy. Now this is not necessarily bad, but it is in this context, because no doubt Jesus was just as Semitic. 3) Prominent and thoughtful Jews are frightened by it. That's enough for me. 4) "His blood be upon us." - or whatever that statement from Matthew is - this had to be removed from the original even to make it acceptable. Now what would this be doing in the movie if there were not a specific point being made? 5) Welcome back! I understand you guys had a lot of snow this year. What did you think of "The Last Temptation"? I compare this movie to that one. I have no desire to see Jesus flayed. Having nails driven through your wrists and feet is quite enough gore for me, thanks. I'm interested in the bifurcated nature of the Messiah and why this was the necessary solution to the problem of God in that context. The very fact that this issue arises at all means that the message of Christianity is lost - it should not matter who is a Jew or Roman or holy. The message is for everyone. -drl
Post #146,286 by cwbrenn 3/15/04 3:54:57 PM Reply	Re: That's a crock, de Honestly, see the movie first. I only saw one hook nose in the entire movie -- and it was Peter's. I'm really not sure where that one came from. The movie makes it VERY CLEAR in the beginning that it was a frame-up and didn't have the official sanction of the Sanhedrin. In fact you see members of the Sanhedrin PROTESTING the trial on the grounds that the testimony against Jesus is heresay and that it's at a dubious hour of the night and that they don't even have the full body present -- the protestors are shown the door. It's interesting that none of the Sanhedrin protesting the trial are people who say "but I really believe he is the messiah!" In other words, there are members of the Jewish priesthood who do NOT believe in Jesus as messiah and STILL protest his arrest. And yet, the movie is based on scripture, and there are JEWISH LEADERS, including CIAPHAS, who PLOT TO KILL HIM. Must we whitewash the scripture before we make a movie out of it? The other critique is that Pilate is too "sympathetic" towards Jesus. I didn't see that either. He doesn't want to be judging the case because he hates his job and he feels he's in a bind -- if he rules for Jesus, Ciaphas will start a revolt. If he rules for Ciaphas, he fears Jesus' people will. In either case, Caesar has already told him one more mistake and he's dead. The only time he reacts in horror is when he sees what HIS OWN MEN have done to him -- that is truly one of the most brutal scenes I've ever watched and it has little to do with the actual whipping -- it has more to do with the pleasure of the Centurions as they lay into him. They're laughing, and joking, and putting on a show. Jesus is nothing to them -- just part of their job... a job they enjoy. The point of all that violence is to give the audience an idea of what it means to bear the sins of the world. it's quite possible that the stripes Jesus received historically were not nearly as severe -- though that's a matter of debate -- but it's unimportant. Gibson was trying to show Jesus bearing the sins of the world and the full weight of what his sacrifice and forgiveness on the cross meant. He showed that by making the people involved in his death display some of the ugliest pieces of human nature I have seen on film. It is, in fact, deeply powerful, and it's not anti-Semitic. "Apparently there was not much to see" sounds very much like the dismissive comments people were making when the "Last Tempatation of Christ" was released. Only the people making those comments were the Right-wing Fundies. I wouldn't exactly call that good company... "We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?" - Edward Young
Post #146,288 by deSitter 3/15/04 4:02:16 PM 3/15/04 4:08:55 PM Reply	ignore The other critique is that Pilate is too "sympathetic" towards Jesus. I didn't see that either. He doesn't want to be judging the case because he hates his job and he feels he's in a bind -- if he rules for Jesus, Ciaphas will start a revolt. If he rules for Ciaphas, he fears Jesus' people will. In either case, Caesar has already told him one more mistake and he's dead. I thought the situation was - Pilate wanted him gone because the last thing he needed was a riled-up populace - but Jesus could not be arrested at Passover - so he was arrested on trumped-up charges that could be "plausibly denied" by both sides. -drl Edited by deSitter March 15, 2004, 04:08:55 PM EST Expand All History
Post #146,293 by deSitter 3/15/04 4:08:15 PM Reply	Re: That's a crock, de The other critique is that Pilate is too "sympathetic" towards Jesus. I didn't see that either. He doesn't want to be judging the case because he hates his job and he feels he's in a bind -- if he rules for Jesus, Ciaphas will start a revolt. If he rules for Ciaphas, he fears Jesus' people will. In either case, Caesar has already told him one more mistake and he's dead. I thought the situation was - Pilate wanted him gone because the last thing he needed was a riled-up populace - but Jesus could not be arrested at Passover - so he was arrested on trumped-up charges that could be "plausibly denied" by both sides. The point of all that violence is to give the audience an idea of what it means to bear the sins of the world. Somehow earlier generations did not need such a display - even as the torturing skills of the Romans were passed on during the HRE. "Last Temptation" was about the entire Jesus, not just his suffering. Also - it explored the inner torment of Jesus as well as the bodily suffering. And it puts forward the idea - the person who ultimately suffered the most for our sins was Judas, who was forced into betrayal as his inevitable role in the Passion. In a sentence, you can't take part of the experience and make it stand alone. -drl
Post #146,315 by cwbrenn 3/15/04 5:18:32 PM Reply	It wasn't intended to "In a sentence, you can't take part of the experience and make it stand alone." It wasn't intended to... but the target audience is already familiar with the other parts of the story. However, it does present something new to people who know the other parts of the story. The thing that struck me when I watched the movie is that I had NEVER really thought of this specific part of Jesus' death before. Throughout most of my Christian life the crucifixion was glossed over, whitewashed. Jesus on the cross in most art is a clean man who doesn't seem necessarily comfortable on the cross with the nails going through him, but at least looks serene. The thought of god-as-man suffering is not something most people want to think about, it's not really reflected in the art... At any rate. Some people see it as attempting to define Jesus by one thing -- I simply see it as the exploration of a facet of Jesus that was not traditionally explored. And it was powerfully well done. "We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?" - Edward Young
Post #146,317 by Nightowl 3/15/04 5:24:15 PM Reply	That wasn't my experience And maybe that is what changes it all for me. I HAD thought about the crucifixion, in much detail before this movie came out. I even had a gruesome sermon recently preached to us (last year, I believe), of a surgeon's-eye-view of the crucifixion. Sort of a doctor's walk through what actually happens to the body... I almost fled the church, instead I left the room twice to get some air, since I was the piano player. So I don't see how seeing the violence I could barely stand to hear described would change anything about my faith, or my convictions. I do see though, that if you had never delved into it in any detail, that maybe it could, so I see your side of it also. Nightowl >8# "Don't be a cynic and disconsolate preacher. Don't bewail and moan. Omit the negative propositions. Challenge us with incessant affirmatives. Don't waste yourself in rejection, or bark against the bad, but chant the beauty of the good." Ralph Waldo Emerson
Post #146,326 by deSitter 3/15/04 5:34:19 PM Reply	But Gibson has a thing with violence One of the hardest things to take in "Braveheart" was the bowel-ripping (drawing) scene - which was off-camera. Even something not shown is just utterly violent. Now is he just being truthful or is he obsessing on the violence? -drl
Post #146,344 by FuManChu 3/15/04 6:44:09 PM Reply	Perhaps, but existence is not always obsession Take Full Metal Jacket or Apocalypse Now as other examples where the violence is necessary to begin discussing some of the side-effects of such violence, particularly the mental state of the participants, witnesses, and perpetrators of that violence. Braveheart's disemboweling scene runs along these lines for me. Experiencing a visceral sympathy for Wallace puts me, the audience member, in a different mental state, as my gut tenses, heart races, etc.--when he cries out "Freedom!" it has an effect upon me which would not be present if I were not exposed to the physical trauma, if only vicariously. My two cents. I was one of the original authors of VB, and I wouldn't use VB for a text processing program. :-) Michael Geary, on comp.lang.python
Post #146,348 by deSitter 3/15/04 6:53:36 PM 3/15/04 6:55:09 PM Reply	Re: Perhaps, but existence is not always obsession If this is the case, why did the news media more or less cover up the fate of the WTC jumpers? Clearly people are NOT comfortable with violence. (At least 200 of 1344 victims in the north tower jumped on 9/11, far more than is generally thought.) Why is it OK to vicariously experience the suffering of a distant historical person, but the actual horror of a living person who might be your neighbor, is off limits? Actually in Braveheart, I suppose there is nothing gratuitous. -drl Edited by deSitter March 15, 2004, 06:55:09 PM EST Expand All History
Post #146,371 by cwbrenn 3/15/04 7:29:59 PM Reply	Violence in theatre is different Violence in the World Trade Center is a tragedy. When we watch a movie or a play (a play -- Shakespeare is one of the most violent playwrights ever!) violence is used to measure the hero or heroine in the face of adversity. A man learns that his father was murdered by a scheming brother, and tries to avenge his father's restless spirit. In the end, just about everyone dies. A man learns that he is fated to be king, and is convinced to attain that position by killing everyone in his way. he then learns that he is fated to die, and when the time comes, he rushes into it fearlessly. A man becomes king, despite a deformity that makes people inclined to distrust him, by killing just about everyone. It a full-scale entire war to undo the damage he did in the process. Two nations fight over a woman. A lot of people die on both sides. A great emperor goes power-mad and is murdered by people who used to be his friends. Violence, violence, violence. When Scarface came out, people called it "too violent." They had a problem with the language, too, so I understand. People didn't like the Godfather because it "glorified the mob." Lots of movies push the envelope and make peopel uncomfortable... that's not the point. Gibson isn't being targetted because of some supposed violence fetish. He's being targeted as "too violent" because the anti-semitism thing won't stick, and he pissed people off because he bankrolled a film he believed in, risking financial ruin and ridicule, and it turned out to be an amazing success. Nobody likes an idealist unless they lose. Gibson didn't lose, and now people want him to pay for it. "We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?" - Edward Young
Post #146,373 by boxley 3/15/04 7:37:20 PM Reply	no the movie was something he wanted to do whether it made dollar one or not. Hollywood wouldnt touch it. I admire a man who forges ahead. John Wayne wanted to make the Alamo, it didnt have the same success. Now Hollywood see's the dollar bill on the wall. What they dont realize is that the christians who are flocking to see what may be the best realistic movie about a central tenet of their religion a documentary as if you were one of the crowd. Anything else out of the bible will be hit or miss. As for me I would love to see a detailed movie wih all the fun bits being shown, the story of Job, hafta rate it XXX I imagine. thanx, bill when I was young I envisioned myself as the embodiment of Trinity, Now I realize I have turned into the Bambino questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #146,379 by deSitter 3/15/04 7:56:55 PM 3/15/04 7:57:31 PM Reply	"Get Job!", the movie Tagline: "He's lost his job, his woman, and his car keys - and it isn't even 10 AM. <cue action flick music> "It's the worst day of his life - and it's just gotten started! It's going to get a LOT worse!" <action flick explosions and more music> ...Mel Gibson IS Job!" -drl Edited by deSitter March 15, 2004, 07:57:31 PM EST Expand All History
Post #146,385 by Ashton 3/15/04 8:17:13 PM Reply	Re: Violence in theatre is different. Addendum A man learns that his father, an ex-president, was targetted by a Bad man. He, now a President, selects/fabricates evidence so as to punish that Bad man (already long on his personal agenda and that of his cronies), thus enlists an entire nation and its young expendables - all while ignoring several Other Bad men. Many people die, the Bad man's country proves a morass of irreconcilable Differences, most persisting over centuries. Another country, a party to the plan: suffers hundreds dead and a thousand maimed. (Its people blame the pact of support for the invasion of Bad man #1, and now seek to end that support, as they ended that Government.) Stay tuned for the denouement. Shakespeare would have been proud! The fault lies not in the stars, dear Brutus, but in ourselves, for we are underlings.
Post #146,386 by cwbrenn 3/15/04 8:24:20 PM Reply	So then... Are you in favor of banning Shakespeare on the grounds that George Bush is an idiot? "We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?" - Edward Young
Post #146,387 by Ashton 3/15/04 8:28:11 PM Reply	It's always less risky to shoot dead messengers___:-\ufffd
Post #146,389 by cwbrenn 3/15/04 8:38:19 PM Reply	LOL. Well writ! "We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?" - Edward Young
Post #146,350 by cwbrenn 3/15/04 6:58:45 PM Reply	So what? I have a think with punk rock music. If I were to write a rock opera about the life of Christ, I'd probably set it to punk rock music. It's just the medium I'm comfortable with. The same people who are accusing Gibson of being obsessed with violence are the ones who profess righteous indignation whenever some right-wing group decrys the presence of sex in film -- as the should. But why the hypocrisy? And after seeing the disembowling scene in Braveheart I personally wondered what all the fuss was about. I mean, it has nothing on the Texas Chainsaw Massacre. "We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?" - Edward Young
Post #146,360 by pwhysall 3/15/04 7:10:02 PM Reply	Ah, now that's a question, then. What do you call "punk rock"? My idea of punk is Agnostic Front, The Exploited, or Rollins Band. Please don't say "Offspring" or "Green Day". Please. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #146,364 by cwbrenn 3/15/04 7:13:43 PM Reply	Re: Ah, now that's a question, then. Bah. Subhumans (English, not Canadian, though Canadian were OK), the Damned, Sex Pistols, Clash, Die Krutzen, UK Subs, Black Flag, Youth Brigade, Minor Threat, on and so forth Ag Front is more accurate old school hardcore. Exploited fits, but verges on hardcore as well. Big Black is one of the greatest bands ever, but not quite punk. I just thought I'd throw that into the mix. "We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?" - Edward Young
Post #146,367 by pwhysall 3/15/04 7:14:43 PM Reply	You answer wisely, young Jedi :) Can't fall off with that lot... Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #146,380 by FuManChu 3/15/04 7:59:30 PM Reply	Forgetting DK?
Post #146,382 by cwbrenn 3/15/04 8:08:20 PM Reply	No, not forgetting. I like DK, but not as much as the bands on that list. I mean, I didn't know I was supposed to list all the punk bands I liked. :D "We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?" - Edward Young
Post #146,383 by deSitter 3/15/04 8:10:45 PM Reply	They are derivative -drl
Post #146,423 by pwhysall 3/16/04 1:27:28 AM Reply	On hardcore... ...my idea of "hardcore" is Napalm Death, Doom, Electro Hippies et al. The aggies sound like Kylie Minogue next to that lot ;) Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #146,375 by deSitter 3/15/04 7:45:17 PM 3/15/04 7:46:16 PM Reply	Black Flag, The Ramones, Richard Hell, Souxie -drl Edited by deSitter March 15, 2004, 07:46:16 PM EST Expand All History
Post #146,377 by altmann 3/15/04 7:52:27 PM Reply	Reminds me of Scratch Acid and their cover of Damned For All Time from Jesus Christ Superstar. dada-dada-dada-dada-dat-dah. -- Chris Altmann
Post #146,347 by pwhysall 3/15/04 6:50:49 PM Reply	Re: That's a crock, de Honestly, see the movie first. I only saw one hook nose in the entire movie -- and it was Peter's. I'm really not sure where that one came from. My nose is magnificent, and I'll thank you to leave me out of it :) Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #146,316 by cwbrenn 3/15/04 5:19:46 PM Reply	Re: That's a crock, de "5) Welcome back! I understand you guys had a lot of snow this year." Well, we actually had more snow last year. But we had more than enough this year. I'm getting tired of it. And we're getting another 7" tomorrow night, so I'm told... sob "We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?" - Edward Young
Post #146,320 by cwbrenn 3/15/04 5:27:34 PM Reply	Sorry, I keep responding piecemeal. I'm sort of checking the forum while I do other stuff... apologies. "3) Prominent and thoughtful Jews are frightened by it. That's enough for me." Why should it be? Judaism and Christianity are not the same religion -- they have much in common, but there is one "minor detail" that they simply will not see eye to eye on... that detail of course being Jesus, who He was in relation to God. Of course they are not going to like it. It says something they don't agree with ! There were plenty of "prominent and thoughtful" Christians who were bothered by the Last Temptation of Christ (it's true! Not just the rabid fundies!). Would that be any reason for the movie not to be made? No! The fact that someone doesn't agree with your take on an event should mean little to a filmmaker. The fact that someone who isn't your religion takes issue with the way you interpret the events of your own religion should mean even less, especially when their charges of racism are utterly unfounded and based in a basic nervousness about the entire dialog of Christ's death rather than what actually happens in the movie. A Jew is going to look at the movie and think "no, that's not what happened." A Christian will be more likely to look at the movie and think "yeah, I could see that as being close to what happened." A Jew will be (understandibly) nervous about any movie that portrays that specific part of the death of Christ because that specific part is often used by racists to justify racism. That doesn't mean it's there. "We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?" - Edward Young
Post #146,328 by deSitter 3/15/04 5:37:11 PM Reply	It's very simple The fact that so many Jews have been so recently dehumanized demands a degree of sensitivity. What has been the film's reception in Israel? -drl
Post #146,351 by cwbrenn 3/15/04 7:02:12 PM Reply	Sure... a degree of sensitivity, yes but not to the point where we soft-shoe on a critical issue of Christian doctrine. The main objection I've seen is that Gibson's movie portrays the Jews who plot to kill Jesus in a negative light. Well, duh. THEY WERE PLOTTING TO KILL JESUS. "We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?" - Edward Young
Post #146,362 by boxley 3/15/04 7:11:58 PM Reply	No they were plotting to kill an upstart rabbi if he stayed were he was buried we wouldnt be having this conversation :-) think, without the betrayal. trial and execution, the christians wouldnt be to get to an execution G_d would have had to plan to turn the hearts of certain religious leaders bitter. As Ross pointed out Judas's actions so poisoned himself that he suicided out. Judas wasnt broke he didnt need the money. So why would he betray unless compelled to do so. It all points to a large heavenly intercession to get the job done In that Time, In that Place. Kinda shoots the free will thing all to heck dont it? A few random thoughts thanx, bill when I was young I envisioned myself as the embodiment of Trinity, Now I realize I have turned into the Bambino questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #146,366 by cwbrenn 3/15/04 7:14:27 PM Reply	Re: No they were plotting to kill an upstart rabbi Well, that's a far more complicated discussion best reserved for another thread. "We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?" - Edward Young
Post #146,346 by pwhysall 3/15/04 6:48:27 PM Reply	Good to see you! How ARE you, you cartoon-drawing-make-me-larf mofo? Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #146,356 by cwbrenn 3/15/04 7:03:31 PM Reply	Thank you! I'm surviving. Paying bills, barely. Working a lot. Re-writing my book. Mostly tired, but having a reasonably good time. You? "We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?" - Edward Young
Post #146,359 by pwhysall 3/15/04 7:08:24 PM Reply	Excellent... ...all that sounds great! Are you ENJOYING yourself? If you are, then fucking ROCK ON. I thought we'd lost you. And that would suck. Hard. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #146,372 by Ashton 3/15/04 7:34:03 PM 3/15/04 7:36:56 PM Reply	Ditto.. and a small dot.NYET, .NIT re page: For some reason {surely. there. Is. one.} going to Ubersoft today: Displays the splendid Beast-twitting quite well, but gets, near the top advertisement: skip "); } else if (gavzadup == "gavzad") { if (ord < 980000) { document.write(''); document.write('</S'+'CRIPT>'); } if (ord >= 980000 && ord < 1000000) { document.write(''); document.write('</S'+'CRIPT>'); } } else { document.writeln(''); } //--> official Keenspot privacy statement menu: skip home :: kernel panic :: features :: info :: links :: forums :: email archives: skip - - with all text lines in [strike(out)] mode! -- this continues throughout page (though not the text-within graphics, of course). Oops: this phenom occurs if I leave filters on; usually I don't. at yours and some other places -- Hell, I even click on the Ads sometimes, at such oases. Filters turned off - I see normal display; prolly to do with script managing.. This with Moz 1.5, Doze 98-lite etc. Just thought you might like to see if there's a missing [/strike] in the ad-insert department. Cheers, I. Edit typos Edited by Ashton March 15, 2004, 07:36:56 PM EST Expand All History

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