Fair enough...

Post #12,830 by screamer 10/11/01 12:23:36 AM Reply	Fair enough... and I'll disregard the balls comment. Did read it. You are right though. I didn't understand the fucking thing. It makes little sense to the sane. Mighty fine line, I'm aware...Might as well read Gogol and Lermontov while we're at it... Keep in mind the context. This discussion can be summarized IMHO, as putting the cart before the horse (former taglines aside). It appears to me that some of the people here are concerning themselves with what we do "after we win"... As if this is a given. From a psychological standpoint, I'm not so sure who exactly is winning this conflict. One simple fact remains. The only reason why all members of this forum are even able to pontificate about this abstract nonsense is because a bunch of 18-24 year old boys were sacrificed in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Kuwait to give us this privilege. I'd be interested if any of the "pacifists" in this bunch has ever served his country? Had family members that "died for their country"? Ross, you've lost your religion... Join the club. But you aren't going to find any more enlightenment in a philosophy book than you are by being an astute student of life. Ashton was correct. Should have ended this thread long ago. Sorry for the bad feelings. Sincerely. Just a few thoughts, Screamer "God is dead" Nietzsche "Nietzsche is dead" God "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones "Putting the fun back into funatic"
Post #12,832 by deSitter 10/11/01 12:34:43 AM Reply	I Have Gained My Religion ..not lost it. My faith in God is stronger than ever, and in Man, less than ever. Curious, since God lives only in Man. People are by and large irreligious and faithless, just as God is pitiless and merciless - when seen from the old perspective. Men profess faith, but live as machines and drones. God loves, but brutally condemns for eternity and kills in horrible ways with a straight face. This was precisely Nietzsche's main concern - how God comes into Man and make him divine, and how Man creates God with his highest aspirations. It is now my main concern (although I wonder - why bother?)
Post #12,837 by screamer 10/11/01 12:54:55 AM Reply	I wish I had the answers... I don't. I guess stating certain aspects of any philosopher/poet/author gives context. I'm being a prick about Nietsche because at this point in my life, I have no time for existentialism/nihilism. As a result, I am happier. And I also am as guilty of hiding behind words as the next. We are on these fora "talking it out" to gain context. I learn a lot from you all. I think your assessment of the human condition is pretty accurate, albeit, sad. And in "context", God cannot be judged. I try to keep that in mind. We are like ants looking at Mt. Everest (for lack of a better analogy). We may be able to see something... but have no idea of what that realm truly is. I am therefor agnostic, because I don't think I'll ever truly understand. Which is sad in and of itself. The major questions of who, what, when where, why and how apply to things like creation/nature of life/etc... It is in our makeup to want to know. That's why religion and philosophy exist. Because we are so ill equipped to "know". I truly value your opinion and thank you for caring enough to argue with me. I'm still not gonna give up the tagline though :-) Just a few thoughts, Dan "God is dead" Nietzsche "Nietzsche is dead" God "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones "Putting the fun back into funatic"
Post #12,845 by Ashton 10/11/01 3:06:04 AM Reply	Likely a wise decision re nihilism.. and other -isms. Do you think the Nazis 'understood' what Nietzsche was aiming towards? (I don't - 'understanding ' was not what they sought from N. - merely some out-of context phrases on which to rationalize a lust for power and a deification of Authority). A ploy as was "The Jew". Effective though, on the shallow and the easily led. Similarly, amidst cannon fire is not when rearrangements of philosophy are managed. Supposedly times of 'peace' permit the recently lived lessons to sink in and ferment - except perhaps, when constant diversion takes all the space for contemplation, next (?) Now - we're in-it again, having remained in denial about Vietnam and about the consequences of having supported so many suppurating bastards since. We made material accommodations and for material (oil and other) reasons, forgetting our alleged 'principles', conveniently. I have no idea how this Muslim-roulette shall turn out; much too early to guess anything. But if this "world of appearances" is indeed also that "world of opposites / of duality" -- then there is no escape from the endless warring of the extremes, nor can indeed "the center hold": that of accommodation of both extremes, for marginal illusion of 'security'. True peace is a state of being, unalterable by the above endless play of opposites (so I have been told). Shakespeare got it, and parts of most holybooks try to mention it -- but not many seek it. Maybe because the noise is always there, and the pretty baubles are soo attractive. Anyway.. both you and deS have at least a chance of remaining uninvolved in the sound and fury, and pursuing the only sort of peace that doesn't need "" around it. You already know the direction for enquiry - and the poverty of the outward symbols. Nobody can pass on anything substantial (no pun intended, much), just hints. So.. why not get on with it? (But you can't tell! anyone ;-) It's the only game in town - all the rest is just deadly entertainment. Cheers, A.
Post #12,916 by Steven A S 10/11/01 1:36:00 PM Reply	Extremes/Extremists get the most attention simply because they can be so firm in their convictions. The people in the middle tend to be less forceful in their convictions because in seeing the possibilities on both sides of an issue, they are less convinced that their way is necissarily the right way. These are the people that, if they get to see both sides, could find the peaceful road in between; but shown only one side become mere sheep, following along with the crowd because nothing better presents itself. Of course even given that information, because of their less forceful demeanor, they usually go unheard. It is due to this that people in general tend to gravitate to one extreme or another. Those with the most conviction in their beliefs become the most heard. If one extreme is the majority or only extreme heard, those in the middle turn sheep and follow along. And because there is often more than two extremes, even if the middle person sees more than one side of the issue, they never really see all of the sides. At least that my view of the problem. I hope I haven't made it too confusing. ~~~)-Steven----
Post #12,953 by Ashton 10/11/01 3:00:20 PM Reply	Thou sayest: so long as the noise drowns out the wise(r) :[
Post #12,847 by CRConrad 10/11/01 4:09:52 AM Reply	Ah, thanks... This discussion can be summarized IMHO, as putting the cart before the horse (former taglines aside) ...for the confirmation. Since you said something about "as I've said here for years" [paraphrased] abouyt a week or so ago, I've been thinking if I should post something about second-hand smoke to find out if this is you, Dan. Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #12,872 by screamer 10/11/01 10:12:43 AM Reply	The taaaaglinnnnnnnnneeeeee...... I love it... I might wish to borrow it if you wouldn't mind, Sir Almightyandknowing... Ummm... As far as second hand smoke is concerned, it's all puffery at this point. Rauchen verboten! (cigarettes anyway). Yep, it's me... Just trying to find a better way to post at work ;-) But since you've deduced my "true" identity, Sir Sherlock, prove to me that I exist. Then prove to me the pizza stuck between the "b" and "v" keys doesn't exist while your at it. It would make me bery happy. Just a few thoughts, Screamer "God is dead" Nietzsche "Nietzsche is dead" God "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones "Putting the fun back into funatic"
Post #12,890 by deSitter 10/11/01 11:16:23 AM Reply	Thanks Dan for turning into an incognito asshole Join the list of former friends. You all suck.
Post #12,904 by pwhysall 10/11/01 12:37:52 PM Reply	Wow. I didn't know people could turn back into teenagers. Maybe, one day, you'll turn into a real human being. Peter Shill For Hire [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal]
Post #12,908 by screamer 10/11/01 1:03:32 PM Reply	Now it's gettin personal... DeSitter, I am truthfully and profoundly sorry that you now think I am an asshole. I already realized that I had "crossed the line" in the last few posts (late last night) between debating and getting personal. I've already apologized and I sincerely meant it. This topic is inflamatory to say the least. I can't honestly say that it's possible for me to divorce myself from the pathos of the tragedy that happened in New York or Washington. I disqualify myself from being "objective" and will remove myself from further debate. I hope you will reconsider putting me on your "list". Please take a few minutes and read my posts from last night. I'm not eloquent at apology, but I think you'll find that I was trying. Just a few thoughts, Screamer "God is dead" Nietzsche "Nietzsche is dead" God "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones "Putting the fun back into funatic"
Post #12,925 by Ashton 10/11/01 2:00:59 PM Reply	I don't get it, Dan ..why you might think an apology is due DR? - one who is constitutionally unable to apologize after.. whatever excess. Also one so disdainful of 'noticing someone else' - as to miss your alias. When you are self-preoccupied to distraction, you don't tend to take the trouble of noticing the nuances within messages - in words (or in person, usually?) Hell, I thought 'twas you, shortly after your first New post; pretty sure by second.. memes? style? POV? (no reason to blab, natch - everybody doesn't have to know everything). But then, I was looking. Don't mistake my POV either - I believe DR has a finely honed intellect, and I've been around lots of large intellects in my time. Should he ever find it important enough to bring his social awareness up to nominal levels - he may even get the chance to do something useful with it. I make allowances for his lack; he's hardly alone in that uneven development - it often goes with the territory. (You shoulda seen what the grandson of George Cantor [of Aleph- fame] was like - he was my roommate .. for One term only - even though I was pretty much an asshole too, still..) But there's a limit to how often you want a friend's visiting prodigy offspring.. peeing in your piranha pool. Alas, I see little improvement since his last demonstration of ineptness in the common courtesy of every society. Sorry to intrude in a 1:1 exchange - but I wrote my reply to DR before seeing your message. Knowing what little I know - I don't see that you 'owe Him', but quite - Ashton fools rush in
Post #12,951 by screamer 10/11/01 2:59:49 PM Reply	I think you do know... When I'm after making a "point" I can be as tenacious as a ferret (pitbull?). Most here can be. As you mention in your following post, "what is the purpose of debate"? It is my wish to be able to "enlighten" but I'm really here to become enlightened as well. Probably much like a songwriter bears their soul in his music, he or she most likely is just putting those thoughts out there in public view like they would a canary in a coal mine... Comparing life notes so to speak. This is what I think... How about you? Trying to find that balance. The "duality" and conradiction of my personal position, I strive to be an idealist and pacifist in my own life. I -try- to maintain a liberal (as in open minded) stance towards this existence. I am rigid but able to bend if necessary. My goal in a debate is to tear down ideas and not people. I try. A lot of my "style" is a fire for effect.... to throw out ideas that have been whirling around me and not necessarily those that I have internalized. And in some debates, such as the current one, intelligent people can have an honest and profound difference of opinion. I'm not willing to throw away my humanity (really) because I'm angry now. I have a small child and another on the way. I don't want them to grow up in a world of hate, narcissitic greed, vanity, sellsellsell. In the same light, I honestly believe... well, you know that. In this light, this is why I feel I owe DeSitter an apology. And I give an open apology to anyone else that I may have, have, or will piss off in the future. It's easy to forget in the heat of our discussions that most here are of extremely high intellect and highly sensitive - me included (at least in the sensitive part...). Looking back at this thread, I know that I crossed the line with the ubermensch kopf post. I was intentionally trying to be a smartass... There, I said it... I'm still gonna hang onto the tagline for a few more days though :-) By the way, does anyone know where the Celina Jones thing originates? It makes it much more humorous. Just a few thoughts, Screamer "God is dead" Nietzsche "Nietzsche is dead" God "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones "Putting the fun back into funatic"
Post #13,002 by CRConrad 10/11/01 5:16:31 PM Reply	OK, sorry... Ashton Dane-(in-)Law: Hell, I thought 'twas you, shortly after your first New post; [...] (no reason to blab, natch - everybody doesn't have to know everything). But then, I was looking. Hey, I can see the barb, even if it's well buried... But FWIW (and as far as I could see), by the time I posted, Dan had pretty much stated as an assumption that pretty much everybody knew who he was. Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #13,006 by Another Scott 10/11/01 5:23:53 PM Reply	Yup. He let the cat out of the bag early. It's hard to keep up with handles sometimes, but he was pretty explicit. Now whether deSitter saw the reply is something I don't know... :-( [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=4195\|Here] - look at the last post. Another irony is that I believe (corrections welcome) that it was Dan who caused many of us to get off our duffs and help Ross when he was in trouble.... :-( Cheers, Scott.
Post #13,035 by CRConrad 10/11/01 6:16:26 PM Reply	Which kind'a proves two things. No, three: Not only [1] that "de Sitter" is a mean asshole (for jumping Dan now), but [2] that he's a stupid mean asshole (for not knowing that he'd already recognized him), too. (the "Other") Scott: Another irony is that I believe (corrections welcome) that it was Dan who caused many of us to get off our duffs and help Ross when he was in trouble.... :-( Oh yeah, that too. Which would make him [3] a doubly-fucking-mean stupid mean asshole. Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #13,037 by Another Scott 10/11/01 6:29:47 PM Reply	I don't think deSitter had malice a-forethought. Forgetful?
Post #13,066 by boxley 10/11/01 10:57:31 PM Reply	less see according to psych 101 and posts here n there losing a spouse/SO due to death or permanent estrangement, losing everything ( worse than bankrupcy) losing gig(major upset) and losing what little you have gained back(loss of pc by theft with all intellectual work stolen) any one of which could lead to a nervous breakdown and doc has hit all of them in less than 1 year. Lucky he isnt in a rubber room. I am not saying cut slack if ya dont want to but I would have given up posting a long time ago under those conditions. thanx, bill tshirt front "born to die before I get old" thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
Post #13,163 by Ashton 10/12/01 4:11:31 PM Reply	Agreed. Pity that he didn't mention this last ugly event til well after entering flamb\ufffd mode.. (Sayin that "everyone sucks" is tantamount to sayin, "life sucks" - which is to forget.. it also blows) I'm sure that some of us could rassle up another box for DR, but that has nothing to do with the lost data - do cops ever recover anything these days? Local flea markets? (wiped drive :[ though) {sigh} The Gawds must love Assholes like this thief - She makes so many of em.. ..now Ill remember why to really put a copy of that backup - OFF-site :[
Post #13,008 by Ashton 10/11/01 5:24:34 PM Reply	Barb? I was talking about deS - not copping to the ID, at all til spelled out. (And.. they've met!) What are you talking about ? ;-)
Post #12,933 by deSitter 10/11/01 2:20:51 PM Reply	Really? Seems to me you responded to one of my posts - an impersonal, neutral one and not a reply to you, with "Hey dickhead!" Now, you're perfectly welcome to call me a dickhead if you know me (or think you do) - e.g. I can even respect that maggot Harris because he's at least honest about hating me - but you REALLY KNOW ME and still just up and "dickheaded" me. And guess what - if I'd known it was you, I would have been actually wounded - but I didn't, so I hit back. And now I'm just forced to swallow one more disgusting moment of two-facedness and backstabbing from someone I really trusted. So fuck you buddy and stay fucked.
Post #12,959 by screamer 10/11/01 3:12:45 PM Reply	Please... I really meant the subject line as a play on words like we used to do in the old IWE. I was playing around and didn't realize that you were taking me that seriously. I also really thought that you knew who I was... really. I have apologized in other posts last night and today. Guy, please don't be hurt. I meant absolutely nothing personal. I was arguing points, that's all. I crossed the line. If I didn't care how you viewed things or what you think, I wouldn't have bothered to respond or to spend the effort that I am now to try and make you understand that I didn't mean to upset you personally. It means something to me that I don't. I do consider you a friend and that I most probably screwed up. I'm asking you to be a friend and understand that it truly was unintentional and to forgive me. Dan
Post #12,984 by deSitter 10/11/01 4:35:14 PM Reply	Too Many Scars This is my last post here. I have no power to forgive. The word is meaningless. God himself is a cruel, malicious bastard, and his in-his-image-created people are a scourge on a beautiful planet. As a general rule, they are stupid, venal and miserable beyond any description. They shit, piss and vomit on everything good and noble. They are black-hearted cowards and will not stop until this fair corner of the Universe is a smoking ruin. Good riddance - but pity the innocence of bees and squirrels. Still, once in a while a good one randomly pops up almost in spite of the evil bastard who sits on the throne of "heaven". For that at least I am thankful - no one can erase the memory of a Beethoven or an Einstein. Actually, come to think of it, that's not really true, is it? Wait, there's that Voyager thingy - a message in a bottle cast off a sinking ship that will of course never be found. That's some comfort, no? At this point I am so scarred up by living 42 years among homo venalis that I have nothing in my soul but disgust and a desire to be 100 million miles from the stink of this miserable race. Ask God to forgive you. If he's having a good day, he might consider it. Of course, he may hit you with a terrorist jet too, or force you to choose between incineration, pulverization, or a 1000 foot, 10 second lesson in unassisted human flight. And if you're like me, he may rub it in by letting you dream about it beforehand and so rip away even the comfort and escape of sound sleep. Thanks God! Bye
Post #12,997 by Another Scott 10/11/01 5:04:02 PM Reply	Friends will be here if you change your mind. Best of luck Ross. Cheers, Scott.
Post #13,001 by inthane-chan 10/11/01 5:11:41 PM Reply	Wot 'e said. Ross, as a middling science fiction author said... "Life sucks, then you die, then they put you in a hole in the ground, and then the worms eat you. BE GLAD IT HAPPENS IN THAT ORDER!" Yeah, things get kind of rough. There are morons out there. 50% of everybody is below average, but 50% of everybody is above. If(Glass.status == full.half or Glass.status == empty.half) { system.out("Who cares, it tastes good!"); } "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Post #13,018 by Ashton 10/11/01 5:37:55 PM Reply	I wish you well. Nobody said it would be easy - being smarter than your average cocker spaniel, in a society that isn't, much. You've got the smarts and, I think - the guts. You could cancel out a lotta dumbth, if you will.. Yes you have a nuance detector; be nice to use it on other folk too, sometimes. Get well. Ashton
Post #13,025 by marlowe 10/11/01 5:52:45 PM Reply	I've had days like that. Hell, I've had years like that. Beware: if you blame God for how man turned out, you might later have kids that grow up to disappoint you, and end up regretting your harsh words. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
Post #12,911 by Ashton 10/11/01 1:26:35 PM Reply	Which kind of remark strongly suggests that your sole interest in collecting 'information' about how, possibly (the universe works?) is for the same banal reason that many so-called 'professionals' collect: attribution that "one has collected all the lore". Ego aggrandizement for short. Rather than alter your behavior in the light of new knowledge, you will simply interpret in the same old way and, as with the silly person who travels - without broadening any horizons. For such a one, ..travel merely equips him to abound in absurdities, most often - stridently. Or? everywhere you go: there you are. In case you haven't noticed yet - all collections of 'intellectual data' aren't worth a bucket of warm spit sans the discrimination to notice where they don't apply, or to notice times when no one has asked the question You want to 'answer' (as with those assholes who will ring your doorbell so as to straighten out your understanding of life and stuff, never noticing how full of shit is their own rote spoon-fed fourth-hand perception..) Erwache! A. never mind
Post #12,919 by wharris2 10/11/01 1:46:11 PM Reply	There are some people too stupid to live. Who knows how empty the sky is In the place of a fallen tower. Who knows how quiet it is in the home Where a son has not returned. -- Anna Akhmatova (1889-1966)
Post #12,921 by Another Scott 10/11/01 1:50:43 PM Reply	Now, now. ... We regulars should know by now that deSitter goes through cycles here. Sometimes he's quite jovial and interesing. Sometimes he's quite angry at everyone. This has happened many times here and on ezBoard that I recall. He's in his angry mode now. Don't feed his anger. Let it pass is the best approach, IMO. Cheers, Scott.
Post #12,928 by deSitter 10/11/01 2:09:18 PM Reply	You Bet I'm Angry Having my apartment cleaned out by theives and losing literally years of work on my cheap, password protected, unusable to anyone but me computer didn't improve my attitude about the scum-foam of people that blanket the planet. Yes, I kept backups. They were in my zipdrive. They took that too. And to Ashton, you have no idea what you are talking about. I see more "nuances" than I care to. Come off your pedestal. I'm down here in the shit of reality, out on the weekend, trying to make it work. Think I'll go get drunk. That usually helps.
Post #12,941 by Another Scott 10/11/01 2:33:01 PM Reply	Sorry about your loss. It must be very painful. I guess I just don't understand how anger at one particular thing can cause you (, and some other people I know,) to take that anger out on people who have nothing to do with that which hurt you. I'm very angry that my next door neighbor was killed at the Pentagon on 9/11. But that doesn't mean I transfer that anger to people I have a disagreement with. I hope you find a way to recover/recreate your work. And I hope you find a way to manage your anger better. Sincerely. Cheers, Scott.

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