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New Couple of factual points....
Pearl Harbor was culturally threatening - somebody with a lot of resources came and kicked our teeth in, and then threatened to give us a body blow.

Erm.

Pearl Harbor was incredibly damaging to the US ego, that's about it.

The Japanese never were planning an attack on the US. They wanted the Pacific. That's it. Pearl Harbor was an attempt to shock the US out of it, to give up without a fight, and if we didn't, to make it impossible to stop them.



In 1960, Robert Menard was a Commander aboard the USS Constellation when he was part of a meeting between United States Navy personnel and their counterparts in the Japanese Defense Forces.

Fifteen years had passed since VJ day, most of those at the meeting were WWII veterans, and men who had fought each other to the death at sea were now comrades in battle who could confide in one another.

Someone at the table asked a Japanese admiral why, with the Pacific Fleet devastated at Pearl Harbor and the mainland US forces in what Japan had to
know was a pathetic state of unreadiness, Japan had not simply invaded the West Coast.

Commander Menard would never forget the crafty look on the Japanese commander's face as he frankly answered the question.

"You are right", he told the Americans. "We did indeed know much about your preparedness. We knew that probably every second home in your country contained firearms. We knew that your country actually had state championships for private citizens shooting military rifles. We were not fools to set foot in such quicksand."



Japan never could have held anything across the ocean. They weren't going to attempt it.


Hitler was culturally threatening - he took over Europe!

Which was threatening to the European culture. Germany had no aircraft carriers, not even long-range bombers.. When he declared war (on the US) it was a shock even to the British... Churchill was surprised - and elated. He knew what the US coming in meant.

Germany wasn't a threat to us, either. At best, after winning the war in Europe, assuming they had, and developing the atomic weapon, there would have been a standoff - but those oceans are big, deep, and cold. They insulate very well.

OBL blew up a building. He has minimal resources for further action.

We don't know what his resources are.

And its a bit more than "blew up a building". He had an organized effort of _at least_ 20 people, who hijacked 4 planes, and apparently more were planned, and *trained* pilots to fly said planes, and then staged a timed attack.

We don't know what the intent was, but apparently it was to kill 50,000 people or more. The fact that they failed in their intent was as much luck as the preparation that the previous attempt had caused. What else was a target for the planes that didn't get hijacked?

Unless you presume that OBL's an idiot, surely he knew what the response would be - and surely he's got a plan for it, and a counter attack of *some* sort planned.


I think you're demonizing the people who want him and his ilk dead as much as you think they're misunderstanding you.

Have you seen Training Day? From what I've read, it sounds like a very similar situation. How low can you go, before you've crossed the line?

Addison
New Hitler not threatening?
Consider Cold war where NATO's resources are on Soviet side. That's what you'd get if Hitler prevailed. With a leader on top that is clinically crazy. Are you sure US would have won?
New It's Laughable, Isn't it?
Hitler not threatening. Whoa! talk to the Ukranians and the Muscovites, not to mention the Poles.

addison and screamer - birds of the same oily feather.
New Not to the US culture, no.
Which was the context involved.

I don't know the US would have "won" the resulting cold war, but I'm fairly confident.. The Nazi state would have (likely) collapsed sooner than the Soviet did.

But that's aside from the fact that we got involved with WWII for moral grounds, not defense.

Addison
New Re: Not to the US culture, no.
Nazi state may have lasted longer than Soviet. They did not kill their own citizen withe the same ferocity. In particular, they did not kill off pesantry like Stalin did.
New Guess I'm demonizing myself as well...
...since I'm one who wants to install .45 caliber air conditioning in OBL's cranium for crimes against humanity. I'd smiley face this, but I can't bring myself to - it's too serious.

Good point about the Japanese - I actually had forgotten that. OTOH, they did try to invade a small part of the U.S. - a machinegun bunker on one of the Alaskan islands, but that doesn't really count for much. Still...

Y'see, if you've been listening to marlowe and screamer, they're cryin' out - "Hey, let's kill 'em all, we'll figure out the bill later!" At least, that seems to be the gist of what they're saying in my perception.

I'm saying, "Hell, yeah, let's go bust a cap in his ass, but let's also take steps to make sure that we're not back here in another 20 years." And no, that doesn't mean turning the area into glass, but it sure doesn't mean bending over and letting OBL ream us with a 747.

That's what I'm trying to flail against - and I'm probably not doing it too effectively, being split three ways already - house hunting, job, and school. Brain overload!
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
New Its all context.
Remember: Fairness, justice, evenness, these are all fictions we've created.

And so the context is important. OBL thinks he's a hero for what he's done. He wants to kill more Americans - the word "innocent" is meaningless to him.

Which in his context is fine.

In our context, it means we've got to kill him, and his buddies.

If you look for a completely "centered" viewpoint, you end up a fundamentalist - and you cannot tolerate anyone not centered at least close to you. Or at least, most people can't.

Good point about the Japanese - I actually had forgotten that. OTOH, they did try to invade a small part of the U.S. - a machinegun bunker on one of the Alaskan islands, but that doesn't really count for much. Still...

Couple Islands, actually. But that was a feint in the Battle of Midway. The plan was that the US commanders there would start screaming, the Fleet would set sail from Pearl, go north to head off the Japanese, Midway would get hit, they'd change directions, and sail into a pincher of battleships supported by aircraft.

So it wasn't a "serious" attack, and they abandoned it later.

I'm saying, "Hell, yeah, let's go bust a cap in his ass, but let's also take steps to make sure that we're not back here in another 20 years." And no, that doesn't mean turning the area into glass, but it sure doesn't mean bending over and letting OBL ream us with a 747.

And context gets us again.

I mean, we *could* abandon Israel. Get out of every foreign affair, and just retreat back to the US mainland. That's the most obvious step to "avoid" these problems. But as you note, there are times when we take a moral imperative. Bombing the Serbs - when none of the Europowers wanted to Be Involved. Why? Mainly because there was a lot of downside, and not a *lot* of gain. Why get the serb's pissed, and possibly having terrrorist attacks, etc, getting the boys killed.... In the short term, its easier, better, safer to "mind your own business".

And as you know, sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. If you saw a woman getting raped, would you act? If you said yes, then you're not thinking about it. It would depend, wouldn't it? On what you did, and how?

If you saw a woman being raped by one guy, you'd act differently than by a bunch of guys, and probably differently if they visibly had weapons. What if they had weapons, and badges/uniforms? (IE, were the cops, or local military) - that would change how you acted, in each case, right?

Context is everything. And context is subject to interpretation.

Short answer: Life's a Bitch.

:)

Addison
     According to a Russian TV correspondent in Pakistan... - (Arkadiy) - (76)
         Indeed - (deSitter) - (75)
             Speaking of the Times of India - (Ric Locke) - (64)
                 Good Sites on Pakistan History, Culture, Politics - (deSitter) - (2)
                     one out of 2 aint bad :) -NT - (boxley)
                     one out of 2 aint bad :) -NT - (boxley)
                 More Good Stuff - (deSitter) - (59)
                     Re: Great Source - more on next trouble spot - Indonesia - (dmarker2) - (58)
                         Re: Additional perspective on Indonesia from US sources - (dmarker2) - (57)
                             Trying to discover an overview is rarely successful during, - (Ashton) - (56)
                                 I'll try... - (screamer) - (55)
                                     Perhaps begs the question (?) - (Ashton) - (54)
                                         You, a fatalist? I never would have guessed... - (screamer) - (53)
                                             Life is a fatal condition - (Ashton) - (52)
                                                 That, my friend, is the million dollar question... - (screamer) - (51)
                                                     Well.. OK just so long as - (Ashton) - (50)
                                                         In the final analysis, at this particular point in - (screamer) - (49)
                                                             As said: as a tactic, prolly necessary a bit, such as we are - (Ashton) - (48)
                                                                 What you said. - (inthane-chan) - (47)
                                                                     Nietzsche also believed in superman... - (screamer) - (46)
                                                                         I doubt he believed in Superman... - (inthane-chan) - (10)
                                                                             Couple of factual points.... - (addison) - (6)
                                                                                 Hitler not threatening? - (Arkadiy) - (3)
                                                                                     It's Laughable, Isn't it? - (deSitter)
                                                                                     Not to the US culture, no. - (addison) - (1)
                                                                                         Re: Not to the US culture, no. - (Arkadiy)
                                                                                 Guess I'm demonizing myself as well... - (inthane-chan) - (1)
                                                                                     Its all context. - (addison)
                                                                             I'm only gonna say this once... - (screamer)
                                                                             As a matter of fact, it *is* on the line. - (marlowe) - (1)
                                                                                 Not on theirs. - (inthane-chan)
                                                                         No He Didn't - (deSitter) - (34)
                                                                             Yo, Ubermenschkopf, do you have a clue? - (screamer) - (33)
                                                                                 Pitiful - (deSitter) - (32)
                                                                                     Fair enough... - (screamer) - (31)
                                                                                         I Have Gained My Religion - (deSitter) - (4)
                                                                                             I wish I had the answers... - (screamer) - (3)
                                                                                                 Likely a wise decision re nihilism.. and other -isms. - (Ashton) - (2)
                                                                                                     Extremes/Extremists get the most attention - (Steven A S) - (1)
                                                                                                         Thou sayest: so long as the noise drowns out the wise(r) :[ -NT - (Ashton)
                                                                                         Ah, thanks... - (CRConrad) - (1)
                                                                                             The taaaaglinnnnnnnnneeeeee...... - (screamer)
                                                                                         Thanks Dan for turning into an incognito asshole - (deSitter) - (23)
                                                                                             Wow. - (pwhysall)
                                                                                             Now it's gettin personal... - (screamer) - (16)
                                                                                                 I don't get it, Dan - (Ashton) - (8)
                                                                                                     I think you do know... - (screamer)
                                                                                                     OK, sorry... - (CRConrad) - (6)
                                                                                                         Yup. - (Another Scott) - (4)
                                                                                                             Which kind'a proves two things. No, three: - (CRConrad) - (3)
                                                                                                                 I don't think deSitter had malice a-forethought. Forgetful? -NT - (Another Scott)
                                                                                                                 less see according to psych 101 and posts here n there - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                                                     Agreed. Pity that he didn't mention this last ugly event - (Ashton)
                                                                                                         Barb? - (Ashton)
                                                                                                 Really? - (deSitter) - (6)
                                                                                                     Please... - (screamer) - (5)
                                                                                                         Too Many Scars - (deSitter) - (4)
                                                                                                             Friends will be here if you change your mind. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                                                                                 Wot 'e said. - (inthane-chan)
                                                                                                             I wish you well. - (Ashton)
                                                                                                             I've had days like that. - (marlowe)
                                                                                             Which kind of remark strongly suggests - (Ashton)
                                                                                             There are some people too stupid to live. -NT - (wharris2) - (3)
                                                                                                 Now, now. ... - (Another Scott) - (2)
                                                                                                     You Bet I'm Angry - (deSitter) - (1)
                                                                                                         Sorry about your loss. - (Another Scott)
                 Re: A worrying part of the attack - the casualty reports ... - (dmarker2)
             Re: Certainly a big worry ... Pakis in awful position ... - (dmarker2) - (1)
                 Side note - (pwhysall)
             Re: Indeed - (Arkadiy) - (7)
                 Nope - (deSitter) - (6)
                     Low maybe... - (bepatient) - (3)
                         Impossible - (deSitter) - (2)
                             Re: Impossible - (Andrew Grygus)
                             Oops...you're right...my thinking was B1B -NT - (bepatient)
                     True. On the other hand . . - (Andrew Grygus)
                     Who has "air forse or significant SAM capability" ... - (Arkadiy)

Well, from then on, we had a whale of a time. I took her to dinner, I took her to dance. I bought her a bouquet of flounders. And then I went home with her. And what did I get for my trouble? A case of the clams.
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