I'll try...

Post #12,215 by screamer 10/8/01 10:40:40 AM Reply	I'll try... United States. Because of greed and obsession with weapons has built up (by creating "cold" war with Soviet Union) massive stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction and in the process is still so wealthy and powerful as a nation that it can afford the luxury of worrying about "trivial pursuits" such as stock markets, civil rights, etc... It still maintains most of it's old stockpile with lots and lots of new "toys". It also still enjoys the luxury of having two extremely large oceans separating it from most all hostility... Meanwhile, back in the "third world"... Some fanatic religious scum of the earth get jealous and fear that their own way of life will become history and figure out that totally meaningless acts of brutality directed against the "rich folk" will make them somehow "feel better". They're pissed, they've had centuries to evolve and yet live in poverty and despair. They were "THE CRADLES OF CIVILIZATION" in the past in the Tigris Euphrates and Hindus valleys. Is it not ironic that they are now going to be decimated and rebuilt by "the civilized world"? They may dance in the streets. They may chant against the big bully... They may even have one or two more random acts of senseless violence up their sleeves. Until the expensive bombs start to fall and they start to realize that they are fucking up badly. See, it's easy to be brave in front of a camera when you are not facing down a cannon or at the brunt end of a B52... deSitter, Ashton, et al... Some of us have had the priviledge to serve in places that we actually do know what this country is capable of... Not to mention with England, France and Germany and Russia as allies (man, scary)... The current situation militarily amounts to this... You have a group of about 10 3rd graders that are mad at this 25 year old guy in great shape (who happens to have about 10 25 year old friends if he needs them... yeah, right)... If they wait until he is asleep, they might get one good lick in before he wakes up and beats the living shit out of all of them. Indonesia and Pakistan are only in any way relevent militarily because they are the two most populous Muslim countries... (Ones that typically are not prone to fanaticism outside of their immediate areas)... However; they are both dirt poor. If you believe the bullshit about winning wars through "will" or whatever else the American liberal press is railing about (to sell sell sell air time and newspapers by trying to make the fight look somewhat "interesting")... Enjoy the suspense! Many of us are aware that they are merely more cannon fodder if they choose to become that. It's a totally sad situation no matter how you choose to look at it. But affraid? Please.... Just a few thoughts, Screamer "Putting the fun back into funatic"
Post #12,293 by Ashton 10/8/01 3:51:10 PM Reply	Perhaps begs the question (?) No one (in informed mind) would doubt US capability (worse yet.. the ever lingering tendency) to off most of the planet, any old Spring day... Hermann Kahn's spasm war is the name given to that ultimate pure-instinctive automatic kill'em ALL state of madness, ever so near the surface in most homo-saps, after suitably long periods of frustration. We didn't invent an earliest acronym, MAD - to be cute: we Know it is madness but we WILL DO IT to ace out someone Else Doing It First and er 'winning' [the remains]. That massive Ego is what has always threatened survival of this species; only a slight oversimplification methinks (?) We may use this Ultimate Power only: indiscriminately - by very definition of er strategic arms, as is our habit to euphemize stocks of smallpox, Anthrax, nerve gases etc. such as we produce in our 'Defense Department'. Recall that before WW-II - we were honest enough to have a fucking War Department !! (Our ancestors had the guts to call a spade a spade - we lost that even before we perfected the TLA.. and adopted euphemism for every ugly thing we produced.) Sure, one nuke pretty much equalizes a few hundred thousand expendable not-Us bodies + all the flora, fauna and the spread around the globe of: the er 'exhaust'. But which fucking bodies? Ans: ALL of them locally. (Less'n you imagine 100K Red Coats a standin all lined up, at the Polish border ready to refight a Waterloo?) Already the Earth's magnificent ecological balance - that which we have barely begun to vaguely comprehend enough to simply Wonder at.. is endangered in thousands of ways. Those are just the so-far observed and documented ones (though that info is far less interesting than, who threw the longest pass on the Astroturf on Saturday - except to a few weirdos, that is). Sorry.. no sale. I believe very many Muricans, living in pampered isolation from the lot of the vast majority of humans, oblivious to the home-grown prototypes for the present events: our Fundamentalists preaching pure Hate, since the days of Father Coughlan.. Most have no merest conception of the power of hundreds of thousands (easily millions next catalyzed) amidst the many, with nothing to lose save, a life of drudgery and deprivation.. (and as of today: few prospects for relief from the 5% eating half the world's wealth, giveortake) Even should we morph the rest of the way, aided by the ready technology of 'control' - towards full Garrison State status: even then we'd have lost that which we used to imagine was worth fighting for. Nope; not only isn't anything next cut&dried: this isn't even the end of the beginning! IMhO. As of today, there remains hope that we will keep it in the pants.. good job. But after the next atrocity ?? Imagine !! the Fate of the World \ufffd in the (near-unanimously 'voted') hands/minds of Dubya + a few: Can You ??? Anthrax. Perhaps? Today. But... Tomorrow? A.
Post #12,331 by screamer 10/8/01 6:26:30 PM Reply	You, a fatalist? I never would have guessed... Must a start also referring to you as a Maltheusian Milktoast? (don't get me wrong, I think Maltheus had some decent points...). I know that I may be reading this as "half full" but do you remember when this crap first happened I posted an article in the Religion Forum describing the Taliban, how it treated it's women, etc... I was affraid that in our anger we would not discriminate between the "people" and the "government" of Afghanistan. Whatever you think of Bush (did he slight you at a dinner party or something? :-) ), he is dropping food with the bombs. It's easy to be cynical about that, but he is, and doesn't have to. Doesn't that suggest that our governments (alliance) are thinking beyond the conflict? I guess what I'm getting at is that I see hope even in this awful situation, that things aren't so black and white. That our leaders really aren't "that" stupid... Of course, I could be wrong... Just a few thoughts, Screamer "Putting the fun back into funatic"
Post #12,337 by Ashton 10/8/01 7:09:34 PM Reply	Life is a fatal condition I agree, have even said so - that Bush has surprised me thus far. Alas this does not instantly correct for his being who he (seems to) be: a C+ MBA-type flake, whose grasp of world history appears no better than average Murican -- of an era of growing dumbth. Yes, he has surprised.. notice? Few expected him to Not react sterotypically. He may continue to surprise many of us: thereby earn first genuine respect for well-hidden talents - dare we hope for wisdom ?? OK - I will hope for that too. I'd love to discover I have utterly missed amazingly sub-rosa talents in this man, so incapable of extemporaneous expression of more than slogans. My point remains: if during the time of planning the first atrocity, these sociopaths managed to parallel-process - and more, dare I say even worse? occurs ?? (I do dare; do not waste dudgeon attributing 'wish' to that dire but clear possibility). THAT is where ... everything instantly becomes much harder, and Pandora returns with her Box. Why is it so easy for folks to conveniently forget: we (alone or in concert) possess the capability of rendering this planet nearly uninhabitable for lifeforms higher than bacteria - if provoked into mindless spasm reaction. Do you really believe that we have seen the last on-shore action? A.
Post #12,411 by screamer 10/9/01 10:17:43 AM Reply	That, my friend, is the million dollar question... Regis? Was this the last terrorist action on this country, continent, NATO alliance city/state? Most probably not. Another occurence on such a "grand scale" ... most probably not. I don't think the giants are asleep anymore. In other words, and I could be wrong, but I think they pretty much shot their terrorist wad with the WTC and Pentagon. They had 8 + years to plan and train. They did it... Now, anyone who carries a Middle Eastern or Arabic in any form name, visage, etc... is under intense scrutiny in this country (wiretaps, surveillence, etc...) or trying to enter or exit this place. Don't get me wrong, there will be many, many more small scale disasters (dickhead straps bomb to self and walks into a crowd of people)... There's not much anyone can do to prevent that. Given the fact that there are only about 1 in 1,000,000 (give or take a few) fanatic assholes willing to kill themselves in order to bring about random destruction and sufferring to non military men, women and children... I'd say in about five years the laws of attrition will take place, if nothing else... Seriously though, that is why it is crucial for the "anti-terrorists" countries to become terrorists to nations that have harbored these "folks" in the past, present or future... A great big "OR ELSE" needs to be established right now... It is an old tradition in the vane of "an eye for an eye". If you come to this country and kill one of us, we will not only kill you but every member of your family, etc... Come back again, we'll kill you and anyone that looks like you... They understand this shit... This is the world in which they live. Just a few thoughts, Screamer "Putting the fun back into funatic"
Post #12,450 by Ashton 10/9/01 1:42:14 PM Reply	Well.. OK just so long as we exploit the propaganda, tactical value of that last - and do not become that which we despise ;-)
Post #12,509 by screamer 10/9/01 5:56:48 PM Reply	In the final analysis, at this particular point in history, we are required to become just as frigging vicious (for real, not just propoganda) as is required to establish the "or else". There will be plenty of time to worry about "what becomes of the soldiers coming home" later. For now, they need to be terrorists themselves and we need to support them. Harsh, sure. Cruel, sure. Effective, sure. I think it's important to keep in mind that, IMHO, the Roman Empire did not fall by decadence... The Greeks were not "punished" for Hellenizing the planet... The Turks, the Persians, the Egyptians, the (insert former world power here) did not fall as a result of their faults OTHER than their failure to fight and win wars. It's interesting to intellectualize about nations, about notions of "peace on earth", about "justice", etc.. It's also not practical in the sense of nations and the sense of the history of mankind. See, in history, periods of peace are only brief rests between wars... Go ahead. Pick up a history book... SEE! Homo Sap isn't going to suddenly "get it" just because you or I think we should. It's apparent to this sap that war is hardwired into our genetics (somewhat like a Maltheusian release valve?). My point (do I have one?), if you're gonna bother to fight a war, like deSitter said, you want to take the Sherman approach to the actual battlefield. We really didn't ask for this one either. Just a few thoughts, Screamer "Putting the fun back into funatic"
Post #12,518 by Ashton 10/9/01 6:50:42 PM Reply	As said: as a tactic, prolly necessary a bit, such as we are One must display the visage of 'fierceness', lest the simple-minded mistake wise forbearance for weakness! But yield personally, to that mindless state [??] Might's well next.. howl like a wolf with mange, max out those CCs, buy Two UAVs and a 99" Tee Vee - yer already dead. And the dead do walk.. look around. Besides, as Arjuna finally got it: there are worse things than 'dying'; one is becoming what you know you despise, (and why) then pretending that was what you wanted all along. (Or.. "it was worth it") Rest case. A.
Post #12,629 by inthane-chan 10/10/01 11:55:05 AM Reply	What you said. Oh, and read my .sig for more. "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Post #12,694 by screamer 10/10/01 3:31:25 PM Reply	Nietzsche also believed in superman... Here's one for you... He who sleeps with monsters might not wake up... DMR Just a few thoughts, Screamer "Putting the fun back into funatic"
Post #12,716 by inthane-chan 10/10/01 4:39:21 PM Reply	I doubt he believed in Superman... ...with a capital "S" though... I'm all for doing in monsters. The question is, should we become that which we seek to destroy, in order to destroy it? If we do, then there is no difference between Bin Laden and ourselves. I'm all for finding every single terrorist and giving them a .45 caliber enema. People seem to be forgetting that when I talk out. The difference is, they are not a sufficiently large enough threat to warrant destroying our own beliefs and faiths in order to stop them. If you want something on that order, maybe the old Soviet Union, circa Cuba missile crisis era, or go read "The War Against the Chtorr." Our collective survival as a culture is not on the line, no matter what Shrub et al might be trying to tell you. If it was, then I might be a little more willing to go along with the UberFascist "we can do no wrong" statements in this war. As it is, since our survival is not at stake, we are in serious danger of getting more of the same, if we don't learn from our mistakes. That is WTF I am talking about, that is WTF the .sig is about, and that is what I am Fscking Tired of explaining every five minutes. You goddamn morons go running around as if Satan himself has materialized on the face of the earth in the form of OBL - calling out "the sky is falling, the sky is falling." A lot of people died in the WTC attacks (6-7k? I'm not sure) - and a lot more will die before this is all over. And you know what? After it all, the sun will still rise, and people will still take each day one at a time. If we go into this as if this is a Just and Righteous Fight Against the Only Monster on the Planet, we'll be fighting this war again, and again, and again, and again, ad infinitum, ad nauseum. If, and ONLY IF we are in danger of being wiped out AS A COLLECTIVE CULTURE, then YES I would be all for indiscriminate defense of our culture. Losing some really infintesmally small portion of our population, without wanting to sound callous towards those who died, from such an event is NOT a Culture-threatening event. Pearl Harbor was culturally threatening - somebody with a lot of resources came and kicked our teeth in, and then threatened to give us a body blow. Hitler was culturally threatening - he took over Europe! OBL blew up a building. He has minimal resources for further action. Most nations are picking sides against him. I do want the fundamental roots of terrorism taken out, but not at the cost of my humanity. "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Post #12,722 by addison 10/10/01 5:04:39 PM Reply	Couple of factual points.... Pearl Harbor was culturally threatening - somebody with a lot of resources came and kicked our teeth in, and then threatened to give us a body blow. Erm. Pearl Harbor was incredibly damaging to the US ego, that's about it. The Japanese never were planning an attack on the US. They wanted the Pacific. That's it. Pearl Harbor was an attempt to shock the US out of it, to give up without a fight, and if we didn't, to make it impossible to stop them. In 1960, Robert Menard was a Commander aboard the USS Constellation when he was part of a meeting between United States Navy personnel and their counterparts in the Japanese Defense Forces. Fifteen years had passed since VJ day, most of those at the meeting were WWII veterans, and men who had fought each other to the death at sea were now comrades in battle who could confide in one another. Someone at the table asked a Japanese admiral why, with the Pacific Fleet devastated at Pearl Harbor and the mainland US forces in what Japan had to know was a pathetic state of unreadiness, Japan had not simply invaded the West Coast. Commander Menard would never forget the crafty look on the Japanese commander's face as he frankly answered the question. "You are right", he told the Americans. "We did indeed know much about your preparedness. We knew that probably every second home in your country contained firearms. We knew that your country actually had state championships for private citizens shooting military rifles. We were not fools to set foot in such quicksand." Japan never could have held anything across the ocean. They weren't going to attempt it. Hitler was culturally threatening - he took over Europe! Which was threatening to the European culture. Germany had no aircraft carriers, not even long-range bombers.. When he declared war (on the US) it was a shock even to the British... Churchill was surprised - and elated. He knew what the US coming in meant. Germany wasn't a threat to us, either. At best, after winning the war in Europe, assuming they had, and developing the atomic weapon, there would have been a standoff - but those oceans are big, deep, and cold. They insulate very well. OBL blew up a building. He has minimal resources for further action. We don't know what his resources are. And its a bit more than "blew up a building". He had an organized effort of _at least_ 20 people, who hijacked 4 planes, and apparently more were planned, and trained pilots to fly said planes, and then staged a timed attack. We don't know what the intent was, but apparently it was to kill 50,000 people or more. The fact that they failed in their intent was as much luck as the preparation that the previous attempt had caused. What else was a target for the planes that didn't get hijacked? Unless you presume that OBL's an idiot, surely he knew what the response would be - and surely he's got a plan for it, and a counter attack of some sort planned. I think you're demonizing the people who want him and his ilk dead as much as you think they're misunderstanding you. Have you seen Training Day? From what I've read, it sounds like a very similar situation. How low can you go, before you've crossed the line? Addison
Post #12,730 by Arkadiy 10/10/01 5:41:18 PM Reply	Hitler not threatening? Consider Cold war where NATO's resources are on Soviet side. That's what you'd get if Hitler prevailed. With a leader on top that is clinically crazy. Are you sure US would have won?
Post #12,829 by deSitter 10/11/01 12:21:21 AM Reply	It's Laughable, Isn't it? Hitler not threatening. Whoa! talk to the Ukranians and the Muscovites, not to mention the Poles. addison and screamer - birds of the same oily feather.
Post #12,880 by addison 10/11/01 10:48:06 AM Reply	Not to the US culture, no. Which was the context involved. I don't know the US would have "won" the resulting cold war, but I'm fairly confident.. The Nazi state would have (likely) collapsed sooner than the Soviet did. But that's aside from the fact that we got involved with WWII for moral grounds, not defense. Addison
Post #12,948 by Arkadiy 10/11/01 2:50:22 PM Reply	Re: Not to the US culture, no. Nazi state may have lasted longer than Soviet. They did not kill their own citizen withe the same ferocity. In particular, they did not kill off pesantry like Stalin did.
Post #12,750 by inthane-chan 10/10/01 6:57:02 PM Reply	Guess I'm demonizing myself as well... ...since I'm one who wants to install .45 caliber air conditioning in OBL's cranium for crimes against humanity. I'd smiley face this, but I can't bring myself to - it's too serious. Good point about the Japanese - I actually had forgotten that. OTOH, they did try to invade a small part of the U.S. - a machinegun bunker on one of the Alaskan islands, but that doesn't really count for much. Still... Y'see, if you've been listening to marlowe and screamer, they're cryin' out - "Hey, let's kill 'em all, we'll figure out the bill later!" At least, that seems to be the gist of what they're saying in my perception. I'm saying, "Hell, yeah, let's go bust a cap in his ass, but let's also take steps to make sure that we're not back here in another 20 years." And no, that doesn't mean turning the area into glass, but it sure doesn't mean bending over and letting OBL ream us with a 747. That's what I'm trying to flail against - and I'm probably not doing it too effectively, being split three ways already - house hunting, job, and school. Brain overload! "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Post #12,887 by addison 10/11/01 11:09:01 AM Reply	Its all context. Remember: Fairness, justice, evenness, these are all fictions we've created. And so the context is important. OBL thinks he's a hero for what he's done. He wants to kill more Americans - the word "innocent" is meaningless to him. Which in his context is fine. In our context, it means we've got to kill him, and his buddies. If you look for a completely "centered" viewpoint, you end up a fundamentalist - and you cannot tolerate anyone not centered at least close to you. Or at least, most people can't. Good point about the Japanese - I actually had forgotten that. OTOH, they did try to invade a small part of the U.S. - a machinegun bunker on one of the Alaskan islands, but that doesn't really count for much. Still... Couple Islands, actually. But that was a feint in the Battle of Midway. The plan was that the US commanders there would start screaming, the Fleet would set sail from Pearl, go north to head off the Japanese, Midway would get hit, they'd change directions, and sail into a pincher of battleships supported by aircraft. So it wasn't a "serious" attack, and they abandoned it later. I'm saying, "Hell, yeah, let's go bust a cap in his ass, but let's also take steps to make sure that we're not back here in another 20 years." And no, that doesn't mean turning the area into glass, but it sure doesn't mean bending over and letting OBL ream us with a 747. And context gets us again. I mean, we could abandon Israel. Get out of every foreign affair, and just retreat back to the US mainland. That's the most obvious step to "avoid" these problems. But as you note, there are times when we take a moral imperative. Bombing the Serbs - when none of the Europowers wanted to Be Involved. Why? Mainly because there was a lot of downside, and not a lot of gain. Why get the serb's pissed, and possibly having terrrorist attacks, etc, getting the boys killed.... In the short term, its easier, better, safer to "mind your own business". And as you know, sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. If you saw a woman getting raped, would you act? If you said yes, then you're not thinking about it. It would depend, wouldn't it? On what you did, and how? If you saw a woman being raped by one guy, you'd act differently than by a bunch of guys, and probably differently if they visibly had weapons. What if they had weapons, and badges/uniforms? (IE, were the cops, or local military) - that would change how you acted, in each case, right? Context is everything. And context is subject to interpretation. Short answer: Life's a Bitch. :) Addison
Post #12,748 by screamer 10/10/01 6:49:39 PM Reply	I'm only gonna say this once... You write: "You goddamn morons go running around as if Satan himself has materialized on the face of the earth in the form of OBL - calling out "the sky is falling, the sky is falling." A lot of people died in the WTC attacks (6-7k? I'm not sure) - and a lot more will die before this is all over. And you know what? After it all, the sun will still rise, and people will still take each day one at a time." Are you including me in those "morons"? If so, you obviously haven't really read any of my posts. If I may reiterate - civilization now stands at a crossroads... For mankind to live in a society (which Nietsche had some monsterously fucked up ideas about if you'd actually bother to read him), there has to be an "or else". "I like you shirt, I'll take it." "I like your woman - I think I'll rape her". "I don't like you, I think I'll blow up two of your biggest buildings and kill as many of you as I can." Laws exist to keep people from doing what they other wise would do naturally. If it was just "wrong" and there was no "or else", then there really would be no point in having laws - nor civilizations.... Now just exactly what is your point? Just a few thoughts, Screamer "Putting the fun back into funatic"
Post #12,757 by marlowe 10/10/01 7:25:36 PM Reply	As a matter of fact, it is on the line. These people have demonstrated by both word and deed that they are unwilling to tolerate the existence of anything but their own culture. And they have demonstrated by their organization and ingenuity that containment is not likely to succeed. The sun may rise in the morning, but on what sort of world? [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
Post #12,770 by inthane-chan 10/10/01 8:12:59 PM Reply	Not on theirs. We have the resources, and the will, to make sure they don't win, without losing our society. I am sure of it. There is just too much of the world that doesn't agree with them, or has too much to lose by agreeing with them, to keep them from winning. The real problem isn't stomping out this manifestation of the disease. The real problem is curing it before our toys (read:weapons) get so nasty that the next manifestation of the disease wipes us all out. Stop treating the symptoms, without treating the cause. "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Post #12,810 by deSitter 10/10/01 11:04:12 PM Reply	No He Didn't That was allegory. He believed in human potential, as far as his natural cynicism would allow. I really get peeved when someone spouts some pseudo-intellectual rumor like this. Read Nietzsche and then spout. You can read, no?
Post #12,825 by screamer 10/10/01 11:56:52 PM Reply	Yo, Ubermenschkopf, do you have a clue? You think I would bring up this existentialist piece of shit- that the Nazis just LOVED for no frigging reason? Inthane may not be aware just how offensive quoting Nietsche is now, but some of us are... and the superman thing was meant as a joke (sort of). Nietzsche (notice the real spelling?) died insane and spent most of his miserable life that way... How profound!!! Come on man... Just a few thoughts, Screamer "God is dead" Nietshe "Nietsche is dead" God "Nietsche has an S in it" Celina Jones "Putting the fun back into funatic"
Post #12,827 by deSitter 10/11/01 12:02:09 AM Reply	Pitiful I read Nietzsche extensively. He was a great, profound, and misunderstood man. Read "Human, all too Human" if you've got the balls and the attention span. Then try Zarathustra. Never mind, you wouldn't understand. The fact that you bring up Nazis shows how little you know. I suppose Strauss and Wagner need to be similarly whitewashed with your trivial brush.
Post #12,830 by screamer 10/11/01 12:23:36 AM Reply	Fair enough... and I'll disregard the balls comment. Did read it. You are right though. I didn't understand the fucking thing. It makes little sense to the sane. Mighty fine line, I'm aware...Might as well read Gogol and Lermontov while we're at it... Keep in mind the context. This discussion can be summarized IMHO, as putting the cart before the horse (former taglines aside). It appears to me that some of the people here are concerning themselves with what we do "after we win"... As if this is a given. From a psychological standpoint, I'm not so sure who exactly is winning this conflict. One simple fact remains. The only reason why all members of this forum are even able to pontificate about this abstract nonsense is because a bunch of 18-24 year old boys were sacrificed in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Kuwait to give us this privilege. I'd be interested if any of the "pacifists" in this bunch has ever served his country? Had family members that "died for their country"? Ross, you've lost your religion... Join the club. But you aren't going to find any more enlightenment in a philosophy book than you are by being an astute student of life. Ashton was correct. Should have ended this thread long ago. Sorry for the bad feelings. Sincerely. Just a few thoughts, Screamer "God is dead" Nietzsche "Nietzsche is dead" God "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones "Putting the fun back into funatic"
Post #12,832 by deSitter 10/11/01 12:34:43 AM Reply	I Have Gained My Religion ..not lost it. My faith in God is stronger than ever, and in Man, less than ever. Curious, since God lives only in Man. People are by and large irreligious and faithless, just as God is pitiless and merciless - when seen from the old perspective. Men profess faith, but live as machines and drones. God loves, but brutally condemns for eternity and kills in horrible ways with a straight face. This was precisely Nietzsche's main concern - how God comes into Man and make him divine, and how Man creates God with his highest aspirations. It is now my main concern (although I wonder - why bother?)
Post #12,837 by screamer 10/11/01 12:54:55 AM Reply	I wish I had the answers... I don't. I guess stating certain aspects of any philosopher/poet/author gives context. I'm being a prick about Nietsche because at this point in my life, I have no time for existentialism/nihilism. As a result, I am happier. And I also am as guilty of hiding behind words as the next. We are on these fora "talking it out" to gain context. I learn a lot from you all. I think your assessment of the human condition is pretty accurate, albeit, sad. And in "context", God cannot be judged. I try to keep that in mind. We are like ants looking at Mt. Everest (for lack of a better analogy). We may be able to see something... but have no idea of what that realm truly is. I am therefor agnostic, because I don't think I'll ever truly understand. Which is sad in and of itself. The major questions of who, what, when where, why and how apply to things like creation/nature of life/etc... It is in our makeup to want to know. That's why religion and philosophy exist. Because we are so ill equipped to "know". I truly value your opinion and thank you for caring enough to argue with me. I'm still not gonna give up the tagline though :-) Just a few thoughts, Dan "God is dead" Nietzsche "Nietzsche is dead" God "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones "Putting the fun back into funatic"
Post #12,845 by Ashton 10/11/01 3:06:04 AM Reply	Likely a wise decision re nihilism.. and other -isms. Do you think the Nazis 'understood' what Nietzsche was aiming towards? (I don't - 'understanding ' was not what they sought from N. - merely some out-of context phrases on which to rationalize a lust for power and a deification of Authority). A ploy as was "The Jew". Effective though, on the shallow and the easily led. Similarly, amidst cannon fire is not when rearrangements of philosophy are managed. Supposedly times of 'peace' permit the recently lived lessons to sink in and ferment - except perhaps, when constant diversion takes all the space for contemplation, next (?) Now - we're in-it again, having remained in denial about Vietnam and about the consequences of having supported so many suppurating bastards since. We made material accommodations and for material (oil and other) reasons, forgetting our alleged 'principles', conveniently. I have no idea how this Muslim-roulette shall turn out; much too early to guess anything. But if this "world of appearances" is indeed also that "world of opposites / of duality" -- then there is no escape from the endless warring of the extremes, nor can indeed "the center hold": that of accommodation of both extremes, for marginal illusion of 'security'. True peace is a state of being, unalterable by the above endless play of opposites (so I have been told). Shakespeare got it, and parts of most holybooks try to mention it -- but not many seek it. Maybe because the noise is always there, and the pretty baubles are soo attractive. Anyway.. both you and deS have at least a chance of remaining uninvolved in the sound and fury, and pursuing the only sort of peace that doesn't need "" around it. You already know the direction for enquiry - and the poverty of the outward symbols. Nobody can pass on anything substantial (no pun intended, much), just hints. So.. why not get on with it? (But you can't tell! anyone ;-) It's the only game in town - all the rest is just deadly entertainment. Cheers, A.
Post #12,916 by Steven A S 10/11/01 1:36:00 PM Reply	Extremes/Extremists get the most attention simply because they can be so firm in their convictions. The people in the middle tend to be less forceful in their convictions because in seeing the possibilities on both sides of an issue, they are less convinced that their way is necissarily the right way. These are the people that, if they get to see both sides, could find the peaceful road in between; but shown only one side become mere sheep, following along with the crowd because nothing better presents itself. Of course even given that information, because of their less forceful demeanor, they usually go unheard. It is due to this that people in general tend to gravitate to one extreme or another. Those with the most conviction in their beliefs become the most heard. If one extreme is the majority or only extreme heard, those in the middle turn sheep and follow along. And because there is often more than two extremes, even if the middle person sees more than one side of the issue, they never really see all of the sides. At least that my view of the problem. I hope I haven't made it too confusing. ~~~)-Steven----
Post #12,953 by Ashton 10/11/01 3:00:20 PM Reply	Thou sayest: so long as the noise drowns out the wise(r) :[
Post #12,847 by CRConrad 10/11/01 4:09:52 AM Reply	Ah, thanks... This discussion can be summarized IMHO, as putting the cart before the horse (former taglines aside) ...for the confirmation. Since you said something about "as I've said here for years" [paraphrased] abouyt a week or so ago, I've been thinking if I should post something about second-hand smoke to find out if this is you, Dan. Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #12,872 by screamer 10/11/01 10:12:43 AM Reply	The taaaaglinnnnnnnnneeeeee...... I love it... I might wish to borrow it if you wouldn't mind, Sir Almightyandknowing... Ummm... As far as second hand smoke is concerned, it's all puffery at this point. Rauchen verboten! (cigarettes anyway). Yep, it's me... Just trying to find a better way to post at work ;-) But since you've deduced my "true" identity, Sir Sherlock, prove to me that I exist. Then prove to me the pizza stuck between the "b" and "v" keys doesn't exist while your at it. It would make me bery happy. Just a few thoughts, Screamer "God is dead" Nietzsche "Nietzsche is dead" God "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones "Putting the fun back into funatic"
Post #12,890 by deSitter 10/11/01 11:16:23 AM Reply	Thanks Dan for turning into an incognito asshole Join the list of former friends. You all suck.
Post #12,904 by pwhysall 10/11/01 12:37:52 PM Reply	Wow. I didn't know people could turn back into teenagers. Maybe, one day, you'll turn into a real human being. Peter Shill For Hire [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal]
Post #12,908 by screamer 10/11/01 1:03:32 PM Reply	Now it's gettin personal... DeSitter, I am truthfully and profoundly sorry that you now think I am an asshole. I already realized that I had "crossed the line" in the last few posts (late last night) between debating and getting personal. I've already apologized and I sincerely meant it. This topic is inflamatory to say the least. I can't honestly say that it's possible for me to divorce myself from the pathos of the tragedy that happened in New York or Washington. I disqualify myself from being "objective" and will remove myself from further debate. I hope you will reconsider putting me on your "list". Please take a few minutes and read my posts from last night. I'm not eloquent at apology, but I think you'll find that I was trying. Just a few thoughts, Screamer "God is dead" Nietzsche "Nietzsche is dead" God "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones "Putting the fun back into funatic"
Post #12,925 by Ashton 10/11/01 2:00:59 PM Reply	I don't get it, Dan ..why you might think an apology is due DR? - one who is constitutionally unable to apologize after.. whatever excess. Also one so disdainful of 'noticing someone else' - as to miss your alias. When you are self-preoccupied to distraction, you don't tend to take the trouble of noticing the nuances within messages - in words (or in person, usually?) Hell, I thought 'twas you, shortly after your first New post; pretty sure by second.. memes? style? POV? (no reason to blab, natch - everybody doesn't have to know everything). But then, I was looking. Don't mistake my POV either - I believe DR has a finely honed intellect, and I've been around lots of large intellects in my time. Should he ever find it important enough to bring his social awareness up to nominal levels - he may even get the chance to do something useful with it. I make allowances for his lack; he's hardly alone in that uneven development - it often goes with the territory. (You shoulda seen what the grandson of George Cantor [of Aleph- fame] was like - he was my roommate .. for One term only - even though I was pretty much an asshole too, still..) But there's a limit to how often you want a friend's visiting prodigy offspring.. peeing in your piranha pool. Alas, I see little improvement since his last demonstration of ineptness in the common courtesy of every society. Sorry to intrude in a 1:1 exchange - but I wrote my reply to DR before seeing your message. Knowing what little I know - I don't see that you 'owe Him', but quite - Ashton fools rush in
Post #12,951 by screamer 10/11/01 2:59:49 PM Reply	I think you do know... When I'm after making a "point" I can be as tenacious as a ferret (pitbull?). Most here can be. As you mention in your following post, "what is the purpose of debate"? It is my wish to be able to "enlighten" but I'm really here to become enlightened as well. Probably much like a songwriter bears their soul in his music, he or she most likely is just putting those thoughts out there in public view like they would a canary in a coal mine... Comparing life notes so to speak. This is what I think... How about you? Trying to find that balance. The "duality" and conradiction of my personal position, I strive to be an idealist and pacifist in my own life. I -try- to maintain a liberal (as in open minded) stance towards this existence. I am rigid but able to bend if necessary. My goal in a debate is to tear down ideas and not people. I try. A lot of my "style" is a fire for effect.... to throw out ideas that have been whirling around me and not necessarily those that I have internalized. And in some debates, such as the current one, intelligent people can have an honest and profound difference of opinion. I'm not willing to throw away my humanity (really) because I'm angry now. I have a small child and another on the way. I don't want them to grow up in a world of hate, narcissitic greed, vanity, sellsellsell. In the same light, I honestly believe... well, you know that. In this light, this is why I feel I owe DeSitter an apology. And I give an open apology to anyone else that I may have, have, or will piss off in the future. It's easy to forget in the heat of our discussions that most here are of extremely high intellect and highly sensitive - me included (at least in the sensitive part...). Looking back at this thread, I know that I crossed the line with the ubermensch kopf post. I was intentionally trying to be a smartass... There, I said it... I'm still gonna hang onto the tagline for a few more days though :-) By the way, does anyone know where the Celina Jones thing originates? It makes it much more humorous. Just a few thoughts, Screamer "God is dead" Nietzsche "Nietzsche is dead" God "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones "Putting the fun back into funatic"
Post #13,002 by CRConrad 10/11/01 5:16:31 PM Reply	OK, sorry... Ashton Dane-(in-)Law: Hell, I thought 'twas you, shortly after your first New post; [...] (no reason to blab, natch - everybody doesn't have to know everything). But then, I was looking. Hey, I can see the barb, even if it's well buried... But FWIW (and as far as I could see), by the time I posted, Dan had pretty much stated as an assumption that pretty much everybody knew who he was. Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #13,006 by Another Scott 10/11/01 5:23:53 PM Reply	Yup. He let the cat out of the bag early. It's hard to keep up with handles sometimes, but he was pretty explicit. Now whether deSitter saw the reply is something I don't know... :-( [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=4195\|Here] - look at the last post. Another irony is that I believe (corrections welcome) that it was Dan who caused many of us to get off our duffs and help Ross when he was in trouble.... :-( Cheers, Scott.
Post #13,035 by CRConrad 10/11/01 6:16:26 PM Reply	Which kind'a proves two things. No, three: Not only [1] that "de Sitter" is a mean asshole (for jumping Dan now), but [2] that he's a stupid mean asshole (for not knowing that he'd already recognized him), too. (the "Other") Scott: Another irony is that I believe (corrections welcome) that it was Dan who caused many of us to get off our duffs and help Ross when he was in trouble.... :-( Oh yeah, that too. Which would make him [3] a doubly-fucking-mean stupid mean asshole. Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #13,037 by Another Scott 10/11/01 6:29:47 PM Reply	I don't think deSitter had malice a-forethought. Forgetful?
Post #13,066 by boxley 10/11/01 10:57:31 PM Reply	less see according to psych 101 and posts here n there losing a spouse/SO due to death or permanent estrangement, losing everything ( worse than bankrupcy) losing gig(major upset) and losing what little you have gained back(loss of pc by theft with all intellectual work stolen) any one of which could lead to a nervous breakdown and doc has hit all of them in less than 1 year. Lucky he isnt in a rubber room. I am not saying cut slack if ya dont want to but I would have given up posting a long time ago under those conditions. thanx, bill tshirt front "born to die before I get old" thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
Post #13,163 by Ashton 10/12/01 4:11:31 PM Reply	Agreed. Pity that he didn't mention this last ugly event til well after entering flamb\ufffd mode.. (Sayin that "everyone sucks" is tantamount to sayin, "life sucks" - which is to forget.. it also blows) I'm sure that some of us could rassle up another box for DR, but that has nothing to do with the lost data - do cops ever recover anything these days? Local flea markets? (wiped drive :[ though) {sigh} The Gawds must love Assholes like this thief - She makes so many of em.. ..now Ill remember why to really put a copy of that backup - OFF-site :[
Post #13,008 by Ashton 10/11/01 5:24:34 PM Reply	Barb? I was talking about deS - not copping to the ID, at all til spelled out. (And.. they've met!) What are you talking about ? ;-)
Post #12,933 by deSitter 10/11/01 2:20:51 PM Reply	Really? Seems to me you responded to one of my posts - an impersonal, neutral one and not a reply to you, with "Hey dickhead!" Now, you're perfectly welcome to call me a dickhead if you know me (or think you do) - e.g. I can even respect that maggot Harris because he's at least honest about hating me - but you REALLY KNOW ME and still just up and "dickheaded" me. And guess what - if I'd known it was you, I would have been actually wounded - but I didn't, so I hit back. And now I'm just forced to swallow one more disgusting moment of two-facedness and backstabbing from someone I really trusted. So fuck you buddy and stay fucked.
Post #12,959 by screamer 10/11/01 3:12:45 PM Reply	Please... I really meant the subject line as a play on words like we used to do in the old IWE. I was playing around and didn't realize that you were taking me that seriously. I also really thought that you knew who I was... really. I have apologized in other posts last night and today. Guy, please don't be hurt. I meant absolutely nothing personal. I was arguing points, that's all. I crossed the line. If I didn't care how you viewed things or what you think, I wouldn't have bothered to respond or to spend the effort that I am now to try and make you understand that I didn't mean to upset you personally. It means something to me that I don't. I do consider you a friend and that I most probably screwed up. I'm asking you to be a friend and understand that it truly was unintentional and to forgive me. Dan
Post #12,984 by deSitter 10/11/01 4:35:14 PM Reply	Too Many Scars This is my last post here. I have no power to forgive. The word is meaningless. God himself is a cruel, malicious bastard, and his in-his-image-created people are a scourge on a beautiful planet. As a general rule, they are stupid, venal and miserable beyond any description. They shit, piss and vomit on everything good and noble. They are black-hearted cowards and will not stop until this fair corner of the Universe is a smoking ruin. Good riddance - but pity the innocence of bees and squirrels. Still, once in a while a good one randomly pops up almost in spite of the evil bastard who sits on the throne of "heaven". For that at least I am thankful - no one can erase the memory of a Beethoven or an Einstein. Actually, come to think of it, that's not really true, is it? Wait, there's that Voyager thingy - a message in a bottle cast off a sinking ship that will of course never be found. That's some comfort, no? At this point I am so scarred up by living 42 years among homo venalis that I have nothing in my soul but disgust and a desire to be 100 million miles from the stink of this miserable race. Ask God to forgive you. If he's having a good day, he might consider it. Of course, he may hit you with a terrorist jet too, or force you to choose between incineration, pulverization, or a 1000 foot, 10 second lesson in unassisted human flight. And if you're like me, he may rub it in by letting you dream about it beforehand and so rip away even the comfort and escape of sound sleep. Thanks God! Bye
Post #12,997 by Another Scott 10/11/01 5:04:02 PM Reply	Friends will be here if you change your mind. Best of luck Ross. Cheers, Scott.
Post #13,001 by inthane-chan 10/11/01 5:11:41 PM Reply	Wot 'e said. Ross, as a middling science fiction author said... "Life sucks, then you die, then they put you in a hole in the ground, and then the worms eat you. BE GLAD IT HAPPENS IN THAT ORDER!" Yeah, things get kind of rough. There are morons out there. 50% of everybody is below average, but 50% of everybody is above. If(Glass.status == full.half or Glass.status == empty.half) { system.out("Who cares, it tastes good!"); } "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Post #13,018 by Ashton 10/11/01 5:37:55 PM Reply	I wish you well. Nobody said it would be easy - being smarter than your average cocker spaniel, in a society that isn't, much. You've got the smarts and, I think - the guts. You could cancel out a lotta dumbth, if you will.. Yes you have a nuance detector; be nice to use it on other folk too, sometimes. Get well. Ashton
Post #13,025 by marlowe 10/11/01 5:52:45 PM Reply	I've had days like that. Hell, I've had years like that. Beware: if you blame God for how man turned out, you might later have kids that grow up to disappoint you, and end up regretting your harsh words. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
Post #12,911 by Ashton 10/11/01 1:26:35 PM Reply	Which kind of remark strongly suggests that your sole interest in collecting 'information' about how, possibly (the universe works?) is for the same banal reason that many so-called 'professionals' collect: attribution that "one has collected all the lore". Ego aggrandizement for short. Rather than alter your behavior in the light of new knowledge, you will simply interpret in the same old way and, as with the silly person who travels - without broadening any horizons. For such a one, ..travel merely equips him to abound in absurdities, most often - stridently. Or? everywhere you go: there you are. In case you haven't noticed yet - all collections of 'intellectual data' aren't worth a bucket of warm spit sans the discrimination to notice where they don't apply, or to notice times when no one has asked the question You want to 'answer' (as with those assholes who will ring your doorbell so as to straighten out your understanding of life and stuff, never noticing how full of shit is their own rote spoon-fed fourth-hand perception..) Erwache! A. never mind
Post #12,919 by wharris2 10/11/01 1:46:11 PM Reply	There are some people too stupid to live. Who knows how empty the sky is In the place of a fallen tower. Who knows how quiet it is in the home Where a son has not returned. -- Anna Akhmatova (1889-1966)
Post #12,921 by Another Scott 10/11/01 1:50:43 PM Reply	Now, now. ... We regulars should know by now that deSitter goes through cycles here. Sometimes he's quite jovial and interesing. Sometimes he's quite angry at everyone. This has happened many times here and on ezBoard that I recall. He's in his angry mode now. Don't feed his anger. Let it pass is the best approach, IMO. Cheers, Scott.
Post #12,928 by deSitter 10/11/01 2:09:18 PM Reply	You Bet I'm Angry Having my apartment cleaned out by theives and losing literally years of work on my cheap, password protected, unusable to anyone but me computer didn't improve my attitude about the scum-foam of people that blanket the planet. Yes, I kept backups. They were in my zipdrive. They took that too. And to Ashton, you have no idea what you are talking about. I see more "nuances" than I care to. Come off your pedestal. I'm down here in the shit of reality, out on the weekend, trying to make it work. Think I'll go get drunk. That usually helps.
Post #12,941 by Another Scott 10/11/01 2:33:01 PM Reply	Sorry about your loss. It must be very painful. I guess I just don't understand how anger at one particular thing can cause you (, and some other people I know,) to take that anger out on people who have nothing to do with that which hurt you. I'm very angry that my next door neighbor was killed at the Pentagon on 9/11. But that doesn't mean I transfer that anger to people I have a disagreement with. I hope you find a way to recover/recreate your work. And I hope you find a way to manage your anger better. Sincerely. Cheers, Scott.

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