Post #87,447
3/11/03 5:57:04 PM
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Cost of tools (SW dev)
I'm wondering here what others' experience is in this regard. \r\n\r\n I'm looking at the cost of licensing a large proprietary software package used in my current assignment for personal use -- largely to be able to work in a preferred environment and/or extend my skills and productivity off site. \r\n\r\n For a relatively minimal toolset mix on the PC environment, I'd be looking at $5k. Annually. Duplicating my client's environment would be $10k. Again on an annual basis. \r\n\r\n Since the platform preference thing raises its head, GNU/Linux is also available. At an even more minimal level (base product only), for $6K. That's less two additional products both used fairly heavily by my client. \r\n\r\n OK, granted this can be written off as a business expense as I'm an independent. But employees and others looking at picking up the product are SOL. Compare to Oracle, who has made a policy of making its software freely and widely available. \r\n\r\n I'm curious what people here are willing to pay for software tools used for personal use. What does other professional, proprietary software cost? I know MSFT prices its tools low, GIMP's proprietary competition runs about $750. I'd be willing to swing a grand or so, but six is rather much. Especially when so much quality stuff is available cheap or free, and with paying gigs to boot. \r\n\r\n Two curious side notes: there is no "Sales" link on this companies website home page. Nor is there a "press <number> for sales" on their phone message. Too: in 1995, mainframe sales were 33% of revenues and falling -- in 2000 (last year for which this stat is reported) it was 48% (Unix: 19%, PCs: 29%). Interesting backslide there. For most of the 1990s, the company achieved 10%+ revenue growth on ~3% customer-base increase. --\r\n
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n
[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n
[link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n
\r\n
Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
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Post #87,451
3/11/03 6:06:28 PM
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Is the software sold thru channels?
How do the other support outfits do it?
Buying a complete outfit for 15k a year sounds pricy so you would have to charge to cover it. Can you recover that revenue without lowering your "current" bottom line?
Is there a leasing arangement so you dont have to cough up 15 large all at once? I was just looking at some SAP training and cert. It is 10k for the cert I want. Dont think I will be doing SAP any time soon.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]</br>
"If you want to meet a group of people who have a profound distrust of, and hostility toward, our legal system, don't waste your time on political radicals; interview a random selection of crime victims, and you will probably find that they make the former group look like utopian idealists by comparison." Dave Robicheaux
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Post #87,453
3/11/03 6:16:19 PM
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Willing to pay?
At this point, $0 to $VERY_LITTLE.
As you said, so much of what is freely available is very good.
On a daily basis at work, I use emacs, gcc, perl, Oracle's tools, and PVCS (which is provided by my employer).
At home, I use emacs, CVS, gcc, objc, Python, perl, Smalltalk, etc.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #87,478
3/11/03 8:36:08 PM
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Too cheap
Usually use whatever's cheapest, unless a project requires the tool - in which case I have the person wanting the work done pay for the licensing.
About the only software that I've wanted but never manage to fork over the dollars is Photoshop.
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Post #87,515
3/11/03 10:52:44 PM
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If this is the package I think it is or is anything like it
I was employed with two different companies that used SAS in support of federal contracts and did consulting work for another. One was with DOD, the others were with DOE, DHHS, and Agriculture.
In every case, the contracting companies had an extension of the agencies' licenses written into the contract to cover machines to be used off-site.
Admittedly, this was a long time ago (1990-1996 or so). It involved a lot of paperwork.
In any case, with licensing charges that steep, you need to build it into your rates. I don't know what your rates or pipeline looks like, but if you're expecting 1000 billable hours per year, that's six more bucks an hour (about four if you take your tax writeoff into account--but it's not a good idea to mix pre- and post-tax in your accounting, though).
As for what I'd be willing to pay for professional tools, my answer would be "very little." There is so much good stuff available for free nowadays (with open source and commercial development-only licenses) that in any case where it is necessary to purchase a license over about $500 or so to do work, I would try to pass that charge through on the contract.
Of course, I have no idea how I would handle the situation if one package was the core of my business.
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Post #87,610
3/12/03 10:25:35 AM
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Indeed it is
With SAS there's little opportunity to hop outside the box. About\r\nthe only real option is to purchase a "light" training edition which has\r\na 1000 record limit. This would allow for some development and syntax\r\nchecking, but little else. \r\n\r\n For my current contracts (small shops), getting a license would be\r\ntough. Particularly as I'm largely interested in this\r\nspecifically for the environment. I hate\r\nlegacy MS Windows. And shelling out >10% my annual income for a single\r\ntool (which I'd be doing to get a reasonable product mix) is not a\r\nviable option. \r\n\r\n Feh! \r\n --\r\n
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n
[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n
[link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n
\r\n
Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
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Post #87,741
3/12/03 4:21:27 PM
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Aaah. . .
I think I have a better grasp now: You would be using SAS to analyze data for clients.
When I read your original post, I was under the impression that you would be providing SAS programming services for clients who use SAS. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this makes you an "end-user" of SAS. (?)
My recommendation would be to do an honest analysis on what the impact of purchasing a license would be on your rates and whether your market will accept those rates.
I don't know what SAS tools you intend to use specifically, but a quick, nosy peek at your resume (please forgive the intrusion) tells me that you could cobble-together Perl code to handle most of the BASE and STAT functionality and find acceptable libraries to handle your GRAPH and SCL needs (I'm assuming that SCL is Screen-Control Language--my memory is hazy here). It wouldn't be the three-pane IDE, but a savings of $6k might do a lot to help you not miss it so much :-)
Are you aware of the Statistics:: modules?
[link|http://search.cpan.org/search?query=statistics|http://search.cpan.o...?query=statistics]
GNUPlot is rough, but I've used it in the past for generating IVR call statistics graphs. Also, OpenOffice.org has a graphing component in its spreadsheet--I haven't used it, though.
One thing that was weak in SAS when last I used it was its interface to SQL back-ends. IMHO, DBI is awesome. I think that quite a bit of DATA step and MERGE pokiness could be overcome with a SQL back-end.
After all this babbling, I guess my bottom line is that this may be an opportunity to see if a couple thousand dollars' worth of hours thrown at developing yourself to the point of obviating SAS would make sense for the long haul.
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Post #87,761
3/12/03 5:00:48 PM
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What part of Gestalt don't you understand?
There's this [link|http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/|little project] I've had a bit of a hand in, though it's largely dormant at present. There's a [link|http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/gestalt_manifesto_full_097.html|basic framework] hashed out. \r\n\r\n Mostly a personal SAS licence wouldn't be doing DA for clients -- testing ideas, doing code dev, learning new tricks, etc. Most of which frankly the client doesn't want me doing on their dime. SAS simply don't realize this. \r\n\r\n I've been giving thoughts to resurrecting GS largely on the basis of current experience, starting with the "OK, how would I do this if I didn't have SAS" scenario, and mapping the problem more into "data analysis on Linux" than "rebuild SAS", though the end result might be similar. --\r\n
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n
[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n
[link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n
\r\n
Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
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Post #87,778
3/12/03 5:36:40 PM
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Well, now that the inkblot's right-side-up. . .
First, sorry to have missed the gestalt references.
Second, I've now skimmed your manifesto.
I dunno that I can contribute anything of use to you since you picked Python and MySQL while I'm strictly Perl and PostgreSQL.
As for the "rebuild SAS" scenario, I'm not certain that SAS is the right approach to data analysis. The few places I've used/supported it, there were always a few FORTRAN guys on staff to handle tricky stuff that could not be done with SAS. I also remember that there was always a go-to guy to do data cleanup. Heck, when I was working at a DHHS agency, I developed several tools (under scientist supervision) with TurboPascal to avoid enormous CPU-usage costs at the NIH datacenter.
I know that SAS is the Cadillac standard, but it might make sense for you to pull-together the Python and MySQL tools and perform data analysis "by-hand" to for some of your work just to see if it can be done. If you tWikify all your steps and code, you may find what steps are worth "automating" and maybe get some review of your methods at the same time.
Again, my take would be to consider how much time you could afford in lieu of paying an annual recurring $6k.
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Post #87,788
3/12/03 6:27:10 PM
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MySQL? Zope? Gah.
PostgreSQL and [link|http://webware.sourceforge.net/|WebWare]. :-)
That's assuming you've already gone for Python.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #87,794
3/12/03 6:47:38 PM
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"Gone for"
Considering the thing's about 6oz. of vapor, nothing's been "gone for". \r\n\r\n Python appeals on several counts. For heavy-duty stats and graphics lifting, R is the logical choice, though calling the syntax Byzantine is...not doing Byzantium justice. \r\n\r\n One of the stumbling blocks first go-round was the sense I had that Tim was looking at a wholesale app integration thing. I'm more looking to provide the glue to stick together what's already out there. Tying in, ferexample, to existing packaging tools (Deb/RPM, CPAN, CRAN) to figure out what's on a particular system, and what it can/cannot do, might be useful. Of course, my druthers would be just to toss the whole schmeil at APT and let it sort out the bodies. \r\n\r\n I'm focusing more on what sorts of things I want done and how I'd tackle them than the specific tools to use to do so. The second should emerge from the first. And IMO should remain open, not closed. --\r\n
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n
[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n
[link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n
\r\n
Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
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Post #87,799
3/12/03 6:59:32 PM
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Re: "Gone for"
Removing that bit from the page would probably help you get help, then. Putting "Python, MySQL, Zope" on there automatically pre-selects folks who might be interested.
WRT Zope, I would advise you to consider how difficult Zope applications are to distribute... ask YendorMike if you want details. :-)
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #87,836
3/12/03 9:00:06 PM
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Ugh
WRT Zope, I would advise you to consider how difficult Zope applications are to distribute... ask YendorMike if you want details. :-) Ho-leeeeeeeee shit. Let's put it this way...[user://snowdog|Snowdog] and I have tried installing the zIWT boards for our own purpose on another machine. Our instructions for doing this are [link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/IwtInstallation|here]. As you can see, we haven't gotten the forums.xml imported yet. Ever try hand-editing a 4-meg XML file? Woo-hah, fun. -YendorMike
[link|http://www.hope-ride.org/|http://www.hope-ride.org/]
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Post #87,846
3/12/03 9:10:39 PM
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Nit: gnuplot not GNUPlot
From the [link|http://www.gnuplot.info/faq/faq.html#SECTION00032000000000000000|FAQ]: Any reference to GNUplot is incorrect. The real name of the program is "gnuplot". You see people use "gnuplot" quite a bit because many of us have an aversion to starting a sentence with a lower case letter, even in the case of proper nouns and titles. gnuplot is not related to the GNU project or the FSF in any but the most peripheral sense. Our software was designed completely independently and the name "gnuplot" was actually a compromise. I wanted to call it "llamaplot" and Colin wanted to call it "nplot." We agreed that "newplot" was acceptable but, we then discovered that there was an absolutely ghastly pascal program of that name that the Computer Science Dept. occasionally used. I decided that "gnuplot" would make a nice pun and after a fashion Colin agreed. It's a very nice tool. Formatting isn't perfect, especially when moving graphs into MS Word, and it does have some quirks, but it works very well for me. YMMV. :-) Cheers, Scott.
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Post #87,894
3/12/03 10:54:26 PM
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:) Thanks
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Post #87,573
3/12/03 8:09:13 AM
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I pay for Delphi Pro, but I'd never pay *that* much.
And especially not if it is what Mike Organek thinks it is -- I'd pay FAAAAR LESS! for that pile of dung than for Delphi, the approximately-annual upgrade of which costs me about half a K.
Actually, I doubt if I'd use it even if I *got* paid to do so... WTF is wrong with you -- are you a *serious* devotee of count von Sacher-Masoch, or what???
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
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Post #87,596
3/12/03 9:45:36 AM
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he's got bills to pay so is holding his nose and working
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]</br>
"If you want to meet a group of people who have a profound distrust of, and hostility toward, our legal system, don't waste your time on political radicals; interview a random selection of crime victims, and you will probably find that they make the former group look like utopian idealists by comparison." Dave Robicheaux
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Post #88,436
3/14/03 7:40:43 PM
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WRT personal development
Insult to injury: not only doesn't your typical contract want you training on their dime, but IRS rules tend against this (the infamous Section 1706 20 questions), but their providing my software also counts a stroke against the "independent" ruling. So that $6g comes out of my pocket. Or not, as the case may be. --\r\n
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n
[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n
[link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n
\r\n
Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
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Post #104,654
6/3/03 4:33:07 PM
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Is it CA?
--
Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them.
--Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum
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