Post #8,257
9/11/01 10:44:06 AM
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Recap of known events as of 9:50 AM Central
At approximately 8:45 this morning a plane of undetermined size hit one of the WTC towers.
15-18 minutes later another plan crashed into the second tower.
:45 or so minutes later a bombing of some sort (plane or bomb...unknown) occurred at the Pentagon.
-All airports have been closed and all plains grounded.
-All bridges and tunnels into and out of New York are closed.
-Both WTC towers have collapsed.
-There has been a car bombing at the State Department.
-A plane has crashed outside of Pittsburgh reported to be the 4th hijacking victim
"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
--Thomas Jefferson
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Post #8,261
9/11/01 10:48:43 AM
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My first question is:
How are these bastards hijacking all these planes? Have we finally reached the point where the fat-asses who scan you at the checkpoints entring the gate areas are completely ineffective?
jb4
(Resistance is not futile...)
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Post #8,268
9/11/01 10:58:21 AM
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Well.....
It doesn't have to be passengers who have done the hijacking. A concerted effort, such as this seems to be, could very easily involve flight attendents, pilots, grounds crew, or anyone else who would have legitimate access to the plane while on the ground.
Then again, when was the last time someone checked your shaving cream, perfume, cologne, or any other "normal" item to ensure that it really was what it was said to be? Would you have been willing to wait while the security check points really did squirt each can, bottle or whatever to ensure "complete" safety? It would not be difficult to get something onboard it one was determined to do so.
[link|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net|Joe]
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Post #8,270
9/11/01 10:59:52 AM
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It's *always* an inside job
After billions of dollars spent on increased security measures directed against the passengers, nobody has been willing to acknowledge the fact that every single instance of terrorist activity against a U.S. plane has involved help from the inside. This may have changed in the couple of years since I saw the report, but at the time there wasn't a single known instance of someone circumventing the passenger screening to get a device aboard a plane in the U.S.
Once again, we've cracked down on the wrong people, inconveniencing the "little guy" when it's always been someone running the show going rogue.
This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
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Post #8,274
9/11/01 11:07:49 AM
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Did the Pittsburgh plane hit anything?
If not, I suspect the pilot took the plane down on purpose.
Darrell Spice, Jr.
[link|http://home.houston.rr.com/spiceware/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
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Post #8,279
9/11/01 11:15:46 AM
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Uncomfirmed report that it was shot down.
www.fark.com has a discusion going with international posters. Larger group than us, able to get more reports.
"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
--Thomas Jefferson
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Post #8,297
9/11/01 11:44:45 AM
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F16 shadowed plane from LAX to Washington DC also?
I've heard this claim (unconfirmed) also.
Notice that all 4 hijacked planes so far were heading to California.
(3 to LAX, 1 to SFO)
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Post #8,301
9/11/01 11:50:21 AM
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Just heard on radio. 4 planes still unaccounted for 10:55 am
"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
--Thomas Jefferson
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Post #8,305
9/11/01 11:54:06 AM
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Cross-country flights...
Have lots of people and fuel on board.
Regards,
-scott anderson
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Post #8,308
9/11/01 12:14:19 PM
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No accident that they were Cross-country flights
... or so it seems. These terroists have done their homework.
People are calling this the worst, most cowardly act of terrorism in World History.
I only hope that this terrible act brings the countries of the world closer together. I can't imagine any religious group or nationality rejoicing over this crime against humanity. The best way to show these madmen that they can not intimidate people is for the world to band together. I pray that the entire world condemns this action and finds those responsible.
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Post #8,312
9/11/01 12:24:34 PM
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Not according to a post below this
Someone reporting celebrations in the streets in the middle east.
This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
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Post #8,345
9/11/01 2:48:14 PM
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Palestinians celebrating in the streets
I can see them on TV here celebrating in the West Bank, Gaza and Lebanon. Why does this surprise you, these are the same people who started with the hijacking of planes in the late 1960's and the same people who backed Saddam Hussein and celebrated his war.
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Post #8,307
9/11/01 12:09:17 PM
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I'd bet the pilots were dead long before any crashes
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Post #8,315
9/11/01 12:30:51 PM
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The FAA received communications after one hijacking
... but the report on CNN? earlier this morning did not disclose who communicated with the FAA.
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Post #8,336
9/11/01 2:11:27 PM
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It landed in a forested area
I saw the footage earlier where it plummeted at a 45 degree angle into the ground.
Witnesses said the plane was at about 1000 feet without the landing gear being down and then it rose abruptly and then dipped back down towards the trees.
They said there were no large pieces of the plane left.
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Post #8,271
9/11/01 11:00:55 AM
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not a good day
And the truly scary part about it is, if this had been a movie or book I would have laughed at it for being "unrealistic." :(
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
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Post #8,291
9/11/01 11:35:04 AM
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Was thinking same thing in reverse: I know who planned this!
Tom Clancy.
Yes, I _AM_ being serious!
What's it called, _Executive Orders_ or something; the last(?) Jack Ryan novel, where he becomes President because a hijacked airliner drops in on the Capitolium as the main man is holding the State of the Union speech? Ring any bells...? (Though that airliner was Japanese, IIRC.)
So what's the fucking use worrying (and whining) about "bomb recipes on the Internet!", as know-nothings the world over so love to do -- when folks like Clancy publish big fat detailed how-to manuals for the whole fucking operation, regular as clockwork, every other year?
Christian R. Conrad
The Man Who Reads Fucking Everything
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Post #8,338
9/11/01 2:25:23 PM
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Just think of Clancy as a white hat hacker.
He discovered a vulnerability and reported it. It seems nobody did anything effective about it. Who's to blame in such cases?
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #8,348
9/11/01 2:53:32 PM
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Level of security
What should "they" have done? In EO the plane violated restricted air space and was not challenged. Here there was no violation of air space. Do we "shoot down" any plane the is off course?
This has to be a well planned and executed attack. Planes chosen for maximum fuel on board (cross country flights that had "just" taken off), targets with maximum vulnerability, visibility and impact. "The Crown Jewels of the New York Skyline", "Home of the American Military" and if correct, missed attempt at Camp David.
You want security? Start with: NO carryone luggage, no purse, no laptop, no cell phone, no briefcase, no cane, walker, wheelchair, absolutely NOTHING. Anything can be used to conceal a weapon, and anything can be used as a weapon. Oh, and don't forget, no utensils with your meals, which has to be wrapped in a paper towel (plastic can be used as a weapon also!)
It's just like securing your home. A determined thief WILL get in. Your security will just keep the occassional thief and kids out.
A determined assassin will get the victim. Just has to wait for the right opportunity.
And as Drew (and I) pointed out in other posts, it's probably an inside job, pilot, flight attendant, ground crew, or some with legitimate access. What security can you use against that? Better backgound checks? If that was all it took, why are high level spies found? What "better" backgound check can be done?
We take resonable security precautions and hope to keep disaster to a minimum.
[link|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net|Joe]
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Post #8,437
9/11/01 7:04:35 PM
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Some things we could do.
1. Make telepresence happen. Haul the RBOC's into court for sabotaging the spread of DSL. Make the Last Mile a matter of national policy. If federal funds are needed, we'll tax airline tickets. And let's establish open standards for video teleconferencing, so we get the needed software fast, and without a monopoly.
This will drastically reduce business travel, which will reduce commercial flights, which will reduce opportunties for mishaps and mischief.
2. Password protect the controls in all commercial flights. If the pilot and copilot don't cooperate or are dead, forget about that hijacking. You'll crash all right, but not where you want to. And it'll automatically dump fuel after a timeout period or sudden drop in altitude. Maybe we program an automatic emergency landing for this situation. It's not likely to work, but it can't be worse than nothing.
(I'm tempted to suggest a remote control option for aircraft, but that could be hacked into, with disastrous results.)
3. All flight crew are to carry concealed switchblades, and be prepared to use them without warning, and with extreme prejudice. You wave a gun in the cockpit, you get a shiv or two in the back. End of story.
4. No carryons. No discussion.
5. No entry visas for people from terrorist nations. It won't keep them out, but it'll slow them down.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #8,440
9/11/01 7:21:41 PM
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You haven't been reading comp.risks.
The world's air traffic control system and many of the commercial craft flying in it stay in the air and in the control of their designated pilots largely through chance. Okay, that's an exaggeration, but an commercial airliners control systems are hideously complex. New systems and add-ons are notorious for being unreliable.
Not to say you have some great ideas, but implementing them would require a vaster upgrade to what is currently flying than I think you quite realized. :-)
Wade.
"All around me are nothing but fakes
Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
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Post #8,444
9/11/01 7:42:21 PM
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Never mind how vast it is.
Would it work if we did it?
I don't give a flip how much fuss and bother it involves, so long as it gets the job done. It's that kind of job. You don't put a price tag on such things.
Besides, a massive overhaul of a piece of our infrastructure is bound to generate jobs.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #8,490
9/12/01 2:14:41 AM
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Price tag = very high.
Would make air travel expensive like you've never seen before. If the airlines will go ahead and do it. They've shown considerable reluctance over the decades to do anything that provides little or no ROI. It would have to be a "do it or we void your airline license" type of situation.
But it's a good idea, yes.
Wade.
"All around me are nothing but fakes
Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
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Post #8,692
9/12/01 5:07:17 PM
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Or alternately, do it or your liability insurance premiums..
will force you into bankrupty.
One favorable court ruling will do the job there.
Hell, somebody's gonna have to pay for all those office towers the planes keep ramming into. Who's got the deeper pockets, Bin Laden or American Airlines? And what do body bags cost in bulk these days?
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #8,449
9/11/01 8:00:32 PM
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sleep gas into the cabin
no way for the cabin crew to get into the cockpit. Someone waves a knife? press the hiss button, take them to jail. Not an expensive retrofit, afew valves separate the cockpit and cabin air.
thanx,
bill
why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them?
Randy Wayne White
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Post #8,489
9/12/01 2:06:03 AM
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Now there's an avenue to explore.
No way to get into the cabin. The cockpit is completely separate from the cabin. The cockpit crew has its own door to get in and out, its own air supply, and its own toilet in there. And its own food cabinet and microwave. Plus cameras and mikes so they know what's going on back there.
And why stop at just one partition? We could separate the passenger area into noncommunicating sections, so a given knife-wielding maniac can only menace a fraction of the passengers. That reduces the risks, and cuts down the amount of gas we have to use. But it won't scale down well to anything less than a jumbo. Remember, each section needs its own toilets and stewardess and kitchen thingy.
We'd have to redesign the terminals a bit, though. More than one ramp per plane.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #8,514
9/12/01 8:39:30 AM
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cheap low tech solution think stagecoach and shotgun
why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them?
Randy Wayne White
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Post #8,519
9/12/01 8:58:04 AM
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Some concerns
I'll note my concerns point by point
1. Feasable, but I don't know that it will really reduce business trips that much. Too many see the face to face approach as the best way to conduct business.
2. Password protection has an inherant trade off. At some level, you have to either err on the side of "ease of access" or security. Do you set up the protection so that potentially the actual pilot can get locked out, or do you make enough allowances that the terrorrist could potentially hack the system. There is no middle ground, and the best balance is a moving target. The best bet for securing the cockpit would be to firewall it off from the passenger cabin with a separate entry point. This would require provisions attached to the cockpit for food, restroom, and extra crew for emergencies. Of course the next concern is how the food is supplied. If the crew brings their own, and stores it themselves, it should be safe, but if it's stocked by the ground crew that leaves the potential for poisoning. The crew themselves would of course have to be screened, but I would severly hope they are anyway!! I do like the knockout gas idea (in theory) that I read elsewere, but that could be potentially tampered with by the ground crew; either disabling it, or putting it under the control of the terrorrist to use for their own end.
3. If you arm the crew, you potentially arm the terrorrist! This is never a good idea, and is the reason it hasn't been done.
4. This is just an inconvenience. Dying from a terrorrist attack where a weapon got carried on would be more than an inconvenience, so this has potential.
5. So, no Irish? This one has a serious grey area. I understand what you're saying, but it's a matter of where the line gets drawn.
I'm not saying these were bad ideas, just that they do have weaknesses; and terrorrists love weaknesses.
~~~)-Steven----
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Post #8,553
9/12/01 10:40:56 AM
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Some different things which could be done.
And some variations on what's been suggested. These could be done with very little expense and it would increase security on a plane.
1. Lock the cockpit door and make it bulletproof, etc., with a window. The door isn't to be opened after the plane leaves the gate - have a lock interlocked with the flight controls so that it can't be opened under operation.
2. Replace some or all flight attendants with bouncers. Seriously. People expect to see big burly guys at night clubs and the like for security. Such a presence on a plane would help reduce the problems due to knife-weilding people, loud agitated drunks, etc. I don't like the idea of arming lots of crew members; the presence of strong people with training in handling lightly armed people is a better approach, IMO.
I don't like the idea of eliminating carry-ons. What about purses? Sorry. It won't work, IMO. X-ray, etc., is sufficient if the operators of the equipment are properly trained and if passengers understand the rules.
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #8,560
9/12/01 10:53:23 AM
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Reaction
Locked cockpit door...
How long would the pilot hold out while the hijacker(s) executed the passengers, one by one, starting with children...?
Burly bouncers ...
Same as above, plus would they be willing to serve passengers? Or are they just "overhead".
No luggage ...
Would work. NO "containers" should be allowed in the cabin. Check everything. What is NEEDED from the purse during flight? Stock femine articles in the restrooms to eliminate the need to bring their own. ID and money could be carried in a pocket.
[link|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net|Joe]
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Post #8,564
9/12/01 11:03:45 AM
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Carry-ons
Ever travelled with a baby?
You cannot go without some sort of carryon if you have a baby.
Regards,
-scott anderson
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Post #8,578
9/12/01 11:33:55 AM
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Guess you're right
Babies can't walk, so they'd have to be carry-on ;-)
[link|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net|Joe]
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Post #8,588
9/12/01 11:57:38 AM
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Kidding aside...
Diapers, wipes, food, toys, extra change of clothing.
Remember the Northwest planes that sat on the runway for 8 hours?
Regards,
-scott anderson
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Post #8,592
9/12/01 12:02:02 PM
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That's the point: put the kiddens aside
Sorry, I had to.
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Post #8,579
9/12/01 11:38:28 AM
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Make 'em check 'em.
I've travelled *next* to a baby.
Addison
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Post #8,583
9/12/01 11:48:35 AM
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Sounds like a great idea
But you gotta add the smiley!! :-)
[link|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net|Joe]
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Post #8,582
9/12/01 11:46:16 AM
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Instead of locked cockpit door
a hardened wall with no access from the cockpit to the passenger cabin would be the only way of effectively securing the controls. Sure the Terrorrists would be able to threaten passengers; may even be able to talk the pilots into diverting their course through such threats; but no matter how many passengers they threaten, they couldn't make the pilots risk everybody's life by crashing into Disneyland or some such by threatening passengers though. Of course the problems with that are that they would need food storage and bathrooms attached to the cockpit, which isn't unreasonable; but the pilots wouldn't be able to get up and move around much on long flights (but that may be restricted anyway - and military pilots (non-cargo) fly under those conditions anyway). They would just need their own entry into the cockpit for ground loading.
~~~)-Steven----
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Post #8,699
9/12/01 5:26:03 PM
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Would be simpler...
1. Lock the cockpit door and make it bulletproof, etc., with a window. The door isn't to be opened after the plane leaves the gate - have a lock interlocked with the flight controls so that it can't be opened under operation.
To lock the seatbelts and only unlock them one or a few at a time, if needed during the flight.
Addison
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Post #8,702
9/12/01 5:38:55 PM
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Not as effective, IMO.
The critical area is the cockpit. If "one or a few" passengers can be unlocked, then there's a chance they can be up and about doing something nefarious. But if they can't get in the cockpit, they can't control the plane. What about unlocked flight attendants with evil intent? You've still got to secure the flight deck....
I still like the lock-the-cockpit-door-and-keep-it-locked solution (as one of many). It should be relatively easy to retrofit, and relatively inexpensive. New plane designs could include different flight crew entrances, etc.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #8,705
9/12/01 5:51:38 PM
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What if cockpit door lock was controlled from ground?
For this to work, we would have to depend on everyone on the ground to have the fortitude to tell the pilots, "Sorry about the passnegers they're killing, but we can't open the door." And for the pilots not to lie to ground control in the face of threats.
But it seems like a relatively simple solution that would raise the bar quite a bit. Wouldn't require recertification of the airframe. Could probably be tested and approved pretty quick. Maybe include a "panic button" that unlocks the door but engages the autopilot in a way that can't be disabled except from the ground.
This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
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Post #8,710
9/12/01 6:07:52 PM
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More complexity; pilot is master of the plane.
Hi Drew,
I don't see the benefit of your proposal over a very sturdy door which might be tied into the controls (via simple switches, etc.) to prevent it from being opened once the plane leaves the gate (even if the pilot wants to).
(This does open the door, so to speak, for attacks when the plane is being loaded with passengers, or when the flight crew changes, etc., and the flight deck door is open. But there may be operational ways to mitigate these issues.)
And there's the tradition that the pilot is the master of the plane. It's his/her responsibility for it to be operated safely. I don't think that aspect of the pilot's job should be handed to people on the ground.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #8,724
9/12/01 6:48:04 PM
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More, really.
But if they can't get in the cockpit, they can't control the plane.
But they can still destroy it. And I don't know that they can't control it - particularly with things like the Airbuses flying by wire - I don't know how they've protected it from the possibility of being "taken over".
What about unlocked flight attendants with evil intent? You've still got to secure the flight deck....
If you've got inside people, that doesn't mean the door can't be rigged.
But now you've got the problems of setting up seperate systems in the front, and like I've pointed out, lots of airplanes just aren't viable for that (747 being one). Maybe you could try and make them meet that requirement - but that's one more thing to go wrong. What happens when the door is breached?
Because surely there's still a way to do that... there always is.
It should be relatively easy to retrofit, and relatively inexpensive.
Not really. For it to be heavy enough to be effective, its going to weigh a lot. Plus, figuring where to put it (right now most entrances are right behind the flight deck - that door would bar escapes, after its secured.. And that's still figuring that you handle all the other aspects.
Plus after you do that, you'll have to make sure it doesn't change anything. Remember, airplanes fly by throwing money out the window. :)
I'd say a more minor door, with possibly a/the sky marshal behind it, where you're talking would work better.
But remember, this is a very very rare event. And airplanes are damn fragile anyway - with a knife or a gun, you can take out the whole plane now.
(hydraulic lines, flight control wires are usually accessable by panels in the cabin)
Locking people into their seats isn't a perfect solution, either. But its not a horrible one, either, would be faster, easier, and would also cut down on other accidents. (But raise the deep vein thrombosis)
To put changes into the Flight Data Recorders has taken almost 20 years... as a measure of something "minor" that has to change.
Addison
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Post #8,742
9/12/01 9:19:44 PM
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More simple
Make the door to the cockpit locked 1" steel, and tell the cockpit crew that if they open it for terrorists, no matter how many passengers they slash, they will be tried along with the terrorists.
Allow the crew to open it on their needs. Keep cockpit door locked at all times.
The cockpit doors, as I've seen, are pitiful. An anemic six-year old could kick them in.
That no man should scruple, or hesitate a moment to use arms in defense of so valuable a blessing [as freedom], on which all the good and evil of life depends, is clearly my opinion; yet arms ... should be the last resource. - George Washington
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Post #8,361
9/11/01 3:17:54 PM
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Debt of Honor.
Japan has a "shadow war" with the U.S., crippling both the Pacific fleet and the U.S. economy through some really sneaky moves, then shows utter incompetence in actually following through, and gets their ass handed to them by Jack Ryan and company. Vice President resigns due to scandal, Jack Ryan is sworn in as Vice President, then a Japanese 747 crashes into the Capital building, wiping out most of Congress and the President. Jack Ryan becomes President.
The story itself was pretty bad, but the ending bit where Secret Service agents on the roof of the Capital building try to shoot down a 747 with Stinger missiles is kind of telling - it's like trying to take out a charging bull with a BB gun.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Post #8,384
9/11/01 3:43:36 PM
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Thanks for correction... Couldn't remember which TC book!
[link|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net|Joe]
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Post #8,272
9/11/01 11:01:31 AM
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Crash at Camp David also
Today is the anniversary of the Camp David accord.
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Post #8,273
9/11/01 11:04:30 AM
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Well, that pretty much pins it: Islamics or Israelis
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #8,278
9/11/01 11:13:01 AM
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Could also be Bin Laden
"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
--Thomas Jefferson
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Post #8,280
9/11/01 11:16:58 AM
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That would fall firmly under Islamics.
If it is, one thing is certain, the law against assasinating foreign leaders is going to be repealed tomorrow.
Personally, I have felt we'd be better off paying the Russians to occupy Afghanistan.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #8,281
9/11/01 11:18:16 AM
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Yer right, I'm not thinking clearly today. Very upset.
"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
--Thomas Jefferson
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Post #8,282
9/11/01 11:18:44 AM
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Bin Laden announced unprecedented attack 3 weeks ago
He was quite serious, apparently.
Regards,
-scott anderson
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Post #8,285
9/11/01 11:21:32 AM
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Why not the Columbians?
After all, didn't we just bring in one of the drug kingpins?
So, now we just have to be watching for
South Americans or anyone speaking Spanish
or
Any Palestinian
or
Israeli,
or
Arab
or
Muslim
or
Anyone except me, cause I didn't do it.
Yes, I do believe we should retaliate. But ONLY after we know who. And no, not "nuke 'm" cause that would not necessarily get the perps, but would definitely get too many civilians. No easy answer... What do we do when it is discovered that a government is behind it? Destroy the country? Declare war? On whom?
[link|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net|Joe]
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Post #8,287
9/11/01 11:22:47 AM
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Columbians never heard of Camp David.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #8,283
9/11/01 11:20:26 AM
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Didn't we get a member of one of the drug cartels in just
the last couple of days also? (Something about someone being brought in via Miami).
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Post #8,286
9/11/01 11:22:03 AM
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Drug cartels don't do suicide attacks . .
. . and they wouldn't strike at Camp David.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #8,289
9/11/01 11:33:01 AM
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Source? Haven't heard anything
I've been glued to the radio all morning and haven't heard anything about a crash at Camp David.
French Zombies are zapping me with lasers!
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Post #8,293
9/11/01 11:39:55 AM
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CBS or CNN, I think.
I've got all three TV's on in the living room, but just now on CBS that claim is being questioned. They ever said it may not have been a plane but perhaps a bomb?
Until now, it seemed confirmed that a plane went down near or on Camp David.
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Post #8,300
9/11/01 11:49:56 AM
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Got four planes and a car bomb right now
One crashed 80 miles or so from Pittsburgh - it would be a mighty interesting coincidence if this wasn't related. Two into the World Trade centers. One into the Pentagon. And a car bomb outside the State Department.
It's said there are two more planes apparently hijacked; one is on the ground in Cleveland, the other unaccounted for. Reports of another plane over Toledo.
French Zombies are zapping me with lasers!
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Post #8,303
9/11/01 11:53:05 AM
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Car bomb was a false alert.
They interviewed someone standing on the steps of the State Dept. right after the report. It was false.
Regards,
-scott anderson
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Post #8,311
9/11/01 12:18:29 PM
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My wife just left our house
We live within sight of the Cleveland Hopkins International Airport tower. Her sister works at Burke Lakefront Airport downtown, and was evacuated at about 10 this morning. Most of downtown has been evacuated, and the police and military who were escorting people out of Burke were the first ones my sister-in-law heard from about the plane at Hopkins. As soon as she got home she called my wife and told her to come to their house.
My wife called to say she was leaving with the baby and the dog, and that the cats were both inside with fresh food and water. She called when she got to her sister's house, and said that she had gotten two other calls from friends who heard about it telling her we could come stay with them 'til this is all over. ("All over" ... hah.)
As she was leaving the house, there were police starting to block off the end of our street. Don't know yet how I'll be getting home tonight, or where, but we've got friends and family in town we can stay with for a while if we have to. I just want to get back into the house long enough to get the cats and some clothes, diapers and formula.
This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
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Post #8,306
9/11/01 11:59:08 AM
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Who reported this?
Just listened to the "recap". Four planes, two at WTC, one at Pentagon and one in Pittsburgh (don't have any other info on that one).
Nothing at Capitol. Nothing about Camp David.
[link|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net|Joe]
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Post #8,332
9/11/01 1:29:12 PM
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Pennsylvania plane
One report I saw thought that the plane that crashed near Pittsburgh might have been going for Camp David. Since there were no survivors, it's going to be hard to verify that.
French Zombies are zapping me with lasers!
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Post #8,288
9/11/01 11:26:30 AM
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Yassir Arofat and Tony Blair offered their condolences
... and criticized this TERRIBLE act of inhumanity.
Maybe all nations will cooperate in going after the people that have perpetrated this intolerable act of cowardice.
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Post #8,309
9/11/01 12:16:30 PM
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While Palestinians dance in the streets
Yasser may condemn it, but nobody told those people he supposedly leads. Washington Post has a story about the massive celebrations that are occurring.
French Zombies are zapping me with lasers!
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Post #8,314
9/11/01 12:27:22 PM
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That is one of my biggest fears.
That people would be happy about such loss of life.
Religious fanatics sometimes get me a tad upset when they think killing is a good thing.
That is the part of humanity I just can't understand.
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Post #8,325
9/11/01 1:00:14 PM
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Not to mention atheist fanatics.
But enough about Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Jack Kevorkian.
Palestinians aren't trash because of their style of religion. They choose their style of religion because they're trash. The dark impulse comes first, the rationale second.
So let's have no scapegoating of our spiritual side. We need it now more than ever.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #8,334
9/11/01 1:35:52 PM
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Fanatics in general. Good point.
Religion is a good thing. Crazed fanaticism is not a good thing.
Killing others is not a good thing, no matter what justification is used, imo.
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Post #8,327
9/11/01 1:07:34 PM
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Unfortunately, the only way we can gain their respect . . .
. . now is by anhialation. In their eyes we are weak and impotent because we don't kill them. The kind of attack we have seen today will now be viewed as a popular sport. Unfortunately mass killing is probably the only option they will give us.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #8,328
9/11/01 1:15:44 PM
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Really wish there was a way I could disagree with you
This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
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Post #8,335
9/11/01 1:48:43 PM
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So do I
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #8,337
9/11/01 2:15:57 PM
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Hit `em so they can't get up.
Then whether they respect us or not becomes a moot point. If it's Bin Laden, we have to kill him, and the top echelon of his organization. If it's a country, we have to end its existence as a sovereign political entity. Revive colonialism if need be.
And we need to to it damn quick, while this recent attack in fresh in the world's collective mind. Otherwise, we'll look like the bully. It's stupid, but that's the way people think.
The question is, how?
The other question is, who?
Ans the most troubling question is, just how much better than they are we, if we resort to such violence?
What we really need to do is is obliterate the culture, the whole way of looking at the world, that first motivates and then rationalizes their violence against us. Make sure the kids don't grow up to be like their parents. Teach the adults shame, if at all possible. They won't like it, but to hell with what they like. I don't think we have to destroy Islam per se, but some sects will have to go. And it's not just the religious system. That's a manifestation of a deeper dysfunction. Just as Nazism sprang from Hegel and Nietzsche, the violent aspects of Islam come from an exaggerated sense of grievance and emotional underdevelopment, that are part of a tradition of dysfunction thousands of years old. The Middle Eastern mindset has got to go.
And to hell with multiculturalism. All ways of looking at the world are not created equal. Sometimes people are just wrong.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #8,341
9/11/01 2:40:57 PM
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You guys are unbelievable
Imagine if the situation were reversed and Israel was attacked as in the past. We would be hearing all kinds of voices about restraint, etc. Israel has been saying this for years, but no the US has insisted don't respond, don't cause an escalation etc.
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Post #8,441
9/11/01 7:23:54 PM
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It's amazing, isn't it?
However, I agree that Isreal should declare on Palestine; and the US should declare war on these terrorists. I would expect Australia to do the same if it happened to us.
Wade.
"All around me are nothing but fakes
Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
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Post #8,343
9/11/01 2:45:09 PM
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Declaration of War
The United States should declare a State of War - enemy to be appointed later.
All Islamic countries should be told to sign on one side or the other - NO NEUTRALS. Any that don't sign with us within 5 days automatically become free fire zones, to be dealt with by any means we see fit, including nuclear weapons.
There is no way the United States can protect itself from enemies of this kind. Only the countries of origin stand a chance of doing that. Without their cooperation the only choice we have is to eliminate the enemies by any means available. The alternative is to have events like this on a weekly basis.
The enemy has defined itself as a culture, and has declared war on us. Eliminating that culture is the only choice we have. Yes, many innocents will be killed - better theirs than ours.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #8,347
9/11/01 2:51:01 PM
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You are advocating the commission of war crimes
Are you really willing to kill hundres of thousands or even millions of innocent civilians? There is no doubt that the use of nuclear weapons on any popultaed area is a war crime by any definition. What gives you the right to kill so many innocent civilians?
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Post #8,356
9/11/01 3:07:38 PM
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Mass destruction should be avoided . .
. . wherever possible, but it should be on the table. When you have terrorists who hide themselves within the innocent, it is the responsibility of the innocent to get them out of there - or suffer the consequences. Here we see the "innocents" deliberately and willingly colaborating with the terrorists and celebrating their actions.
Yes, innocents will be killed. Better theirs than ours, or are you volunteering? I don't think any of those in New York or Washington volunteered, or those that were on the airplanes volunteered.
What's to keep this from becoming a weekly event, when religeous fanatics are assured of paradise by engaging in these actions there will be no shortage of "martyrs". How many of our innocents do you propose we sacrifice?
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #8,366
9/11/01 3:21:46 PM
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The same number of innocents...
that the US tells Israel to sacrifice to suicide bombing etc.
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Post #8,376
9/11/01 3:33:09 PM
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Good logic
For the sake of argument, I'll grant your premise that U.S. foreign policy has amounted to telling Israel to sacrifice people to suicide bombers. Are you now concluding that the U.S. is morally obligated to sacrifice the same number of our own citizens before we can take any action in our own defense?
Now, as for the premise ... Let's suppose the U.S. policy has been to explicitly tell Isreal to sacrifice its people to suicide bombers. Why would they listen to us? Could it be to keep receiving all the military and other financial aid we provide? Do you really think there are no strings attached? If you don't want Israel to feel bound by U.S. policy, all they have to do is stop taking the money.
This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
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Post #8,391
9/11/01 3:49:44 PM
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Why not?
If the US believes that restraint is the right policy for others why not for itself.
Like it or not the US is the only superpower in the world. Even if the US gave Israel no money it still has alot of control and an important voice. Europe gives Israel no money, yet when they speak people here listen. The reason is simple. Israel is a small country and depends on trade etc. for survival.
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Post #8,375
9/11/01 3:32:49 PM
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And Americans accuse Israel of using excessive force????????
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Post #8,380
9/11/01 3:36:36 PM
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I do not think you will find that I have . .
. . expressed that opinion.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #8,387
9/11/01 3:45:29 PM
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Maybe not...
but the US government certainly has.
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Post #8,390
9/11/01 3:48:38 PM
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I seem to recall something about the "Crusades"....
Something about.. Christians... going and raping and pillaging.. Islamic countries.
Repeatedly.
Even sent kids over for it.
What we really need to do is is obliterate the culture, the whole way of looking at the world, that first motivates and then rationalizes their violence against us. Make sure the kids don't grow up to be like their parents. Teach the adults shame, if at all possible. They won't like it, but to hell with what they like. I don't think we have to destroy Islam per se
So, kidnap all the kids, raise them (somewhere), destroy their religion (which, you might also note, is also a derivative from the same root as Judaism and Christianity)
I think you might have a slight problem. Add to that that there are as many Muslims as Christians (assuming that's who you've got fighting for you....).
So essentially you're talking about, kidnapping all the kids in the housing development over from you, and shooting all the priests, pastors, and deacons.
Sure you don't want to reconsider, slightly?
The Middle Eastern mindset has got to go.
Funny. They say the same thing about you. Of course, I guess we can just nuke 'em, but that's getting back to merely playing by who's stick is bigger.
Addison
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Post #8,409
9/11/01 4:17:03 PM
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Yabut.
"Add to that that there are as many Muslims as Christians..."
But the Christians have more nukes.
Mikem
who flew today, briefly.
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Post #8,414
9/11/01 4:41:04 PM
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Everybody remembers the Crusades
But nobody remembers the muslim conquest of some of the best parts of the Roman Empire. Without its connection to the east, western Europe was left to wither under those same Franks, Lombards and Goths that later laid waste Palestine. With a little foresight those conquering califs might have left Spain, Sicily, North Africa, Egypt, Syria, (and why not, Palestine too) to the Romans and saved their descendents a lot of trouble... Were Mesopotamia, Persia, East Africa, North India, Central Asia, Indonesia not enough?
Giovanni
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Post #8,442
9/11/01 7:32:54 PM
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Something I might want to reconsider slightly?
I've got a couple of inner city housing projects in mind that would be appropriate for such treatment.
No, I wouldn't kill the priests. I might mace them if they get in the way, but that's as far as it'll go. I'm forceful, but not gratuitously violent. The nuns, too. Some of them really have it coming.
But I don't think the issue will arise. Some groups who make the biggest deal about their religion are the least religious of all in actual practise. I don't think the local pastor will even know who most of the residents are. ("Well, bless my soul! I haven't seen you since the baptism. Yours, that is. Still kicking and screaming and drooling and spitting up, I see.")
And I'm in no hurry to bind the stump of any major religion. Just prune the more unhealthy branches. The ones that the vermin hide behind.
Or, we could just slip Antabuse into the water supply and see if that helps. After all, their *real* diety comes in a six pack.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #8,290
9/11/01 11:34:55 AM
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Bin Laden
"Yahoo Finance Vision reporting that Bin Laden reiterated to
the media today that he warned 3 weeks ago that his group was
going to carry out an unprecedented attack on the US because
we aided Israel."
From Jason on II.
Regards,
-scott anderson
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Post #8,292
9/11/01 11:39:13 AM
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Report on NPR...
...said that Reuters or one of the news agencies had recieved a report that the "Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine" had claimed responsibility.
No idea who they are.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Post #8,295
9/11/01 11:42:18 AM
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CNN says bin Laadan denied responsibility
Also, that the Taliban are going to have a press conference soon.
--
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* Jack Troughton jake at jakesplace.dhs.org *
* [link|http://jakesplace.dhs.org|[link|http://jakesplace.dhs.org|http://jakesplace.dhs.org]] [link|ftp://jakesplace.dhs.org|[link|ftp://jakesplace.dhs.org|ftp://jakesplace.dhs.org]] *
* Montr\ufffdal PQ Canada [link|news://jakesplace.dhs.org|news://jakesplace.dhs.org] *
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Post #8,298
9/11/01 11:45:17 AM
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Anyone with any sense would deny it
Whether bin Laden did it or not, he'd be crazy to claim responsibility.
French Zombies are zapping me with lasers!
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Post #8,302
9/11/01 11:52:00 AM
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Oh yeah, and he'll be believed.
You don't say you're going to make an unprecedented attack, and then deny you did it 3 weeks later when the WTC collapses, and expect to be believed.
Regards,
-scott anderson
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Post #8,351
9/11/01 2:58:32 PM
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bin Laden or Taliban denies?
I heard some one (Afghanistani diplomat, I think) say something like, "As far as the Taliban is concerned, Osama bin Laden is not involved." Has anyone actually heard from bin Laden himself?
OT: I was flying this morning, radio out of the Cessna 150. Took off, stayed in the pattern, then the FBO started waving at me to land. This is going to be a day I don't forget for a variety of reasons.
post thought: I sure am glad we did what we could to prevent the Soviet Union from obliterating Afghanistan. You make deals with the devil, it comes back to bite you.
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Post #8,296
9/11/01 11:43:25 AM
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Probably a dozen unknown groups will claim responsibility.
Most will have 3 members and be unable to organize a family picnic. Dosn't mean we shouldn't hang them anyway though.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #8,331
9/11/01 1:22:21 PM
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Re: Report on NPR...
Heard that they've retracted their claim - after the other 3 jets.
Apparently, (assuming that report is true) they're not THAT crazy.
Addison
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Post #8,317
9/11/01 12:35:38 PM
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Tower collapses
You realize how long it takes to evacuate those buildings? It took hours to evacuate after the world trade center bombing. The body count is going to be in the tens of thousands.
French Zombies are zapping me with lasers!
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Post #8,321
9/11/01 12:49:39 PM
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Perspective: 25-50K workers at WTC
US Vietnam war dead were 40,000. This is of a comperable scale, in one incident.
--
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
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Post #8,333
9/11/01 1:32:13 PM
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Count Vietnamese deaths in Vietnam to get a true comparison
Not to put too fine a point on it, but Vietnam was a far more major thing than this is...
--
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* Jack Troughton jake at jakesplace.dhs.org *
* [link|http://jakesplace.dhs.org|[link|http://jakesplace.dhs.org|http://jakesplace.dhs.org]] [link|ftp://jakesplace.dhs.org|[link|ftp://jakesplace.dhs.org|ftp://jakesplace.dhs.org]] *
* Montr\ufffdal PQ Canada [link|news://jakesplace.dhs.org|news://jakesplace.dhs.org] *
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Post #8,482
9/12/01 1:03:34 AM
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Re: Recap of known events as of 9:50 AM Central
I took my family to the Twin Towers 2 months ago. I still remember the faces: the cashier at Sbarro up at the 110 floor, the elevator operator. All dead. I can't get my head around it. There I was, juggling a pocketful of change and 2 kids, holding back the line. And she smiled at me and asked how old the kids were. And now she is dead.
Now, people here say something against "war crimes". I hope that our crimes will be just as unexpected for them as theirs were a shock for us. Kill bin Laden's teacher. Level all mosques in his native city. The only reason 110 floors of concrete never tunmbled down before is because people never thought about it. Now we need to think of something that will pain them as what they do pains us. God help us stay different from them! Because I know that I am loosing the diffirence right now.
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