And when you leave the office, my myopic friend,

Post #64,943 by mmoffitt 11/25/02 2:32:08 PM Reply	And when you leave the office, my myopic friend, you're done. They aren't. I student taught and I spent an additional 3-4 hours per day grading papers at home. And how about lessons plans? They just "appear"? Hardly. If you really want to do the math, follow a teacher home and watch him/her spend an additional 3-4 hours/day AFTER THEY LEAVE SCHOOL doing their job. I've not seen any studies on this, might be a good thesis for some one, to actually tally the hours a teacher works. My educated guess is that it far exceeds the 2080/year everyone else works.
Post #64,944 by boxley 11/25/02 2:37:37 PM Reply	part of the problem is for every teacher putting in 80 hrs week there is another who arrives at the fist bell and departs at the last without thought for the students. There is no measurable way to determine who does what when so they are paid for the hrs of instruction. thanx, Bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] GRAYBOAR-Strangleur Extraodinaire "Have Thumbs Will Travel" Customised Asphyxiations No Gullet Too Big, No Weasand Too small My Motto Satisfaction Garoteed, or the Chokes on Me! Eric Flint
Post #64,947 by mmoffitt 11/25/02 2:47:33 PM Reply	The solution is not, then, to treat them all the same. Or subject them to "salary hikes by student scores." You want real competition? You want them all to work hard to educate their students? I've seen no proposal that makes as much sense as Gould's tripling their salaries. After all, who wants to go to college, graduate with at least a B- average (and typically higher in their fields) volunteer to make between 30 and 60 per cent less/year and THEN take a bunch more shit in the process than they would working in the private sector? You want good people, pay them like they are good people. Only when you have more good applicants than you have bad, can you begin to weed out the bad. But you can only have more good applicants than bad IF YOU MAKE THE SALARIES AND BENEFITS BETTER. End of story.
Post #64,957 by boxley 11/25/02 3:46:27 PM Reply	in the local paper op ed st petes times a local teacher who refuses to host interns as they are so stupid. A geography teacher who coudnt find the Sahara on the globe, a monotone delivery to the wall etc. Do teachers in other countries such as Finland or Britain face similar salary issues and is their product better? thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] GRAYBOAR-Strangleur Extraodinaire "Have Thumbs Will Travel" Customised Asphyxiations No Gullet Too Big, No Weasand Too small My Motto Satisfaction Garoteed, or the Chokes on Me! Eric Flint
Post #64,964 by mmoffitt 11/25/02 4:34:49 PM Reply	Dunno about Finland or Great Britain, but... my best friend's sister-in-law teaches elementary school in Germany and was agast on a recent visit to see what we pay teachers here. Anecdotal to be sure, but still...
Post #64,969 by Silverlock 11/25/02 5:03:43 PM Reply	Try here Found on [link\|http://www.aft.org/research/reports/interntl/ncessal/ncessal.htm\|Google] using search term 'international teacher salary comparison'. first hit. Why should we ask our military to die for cheap oil when the rest of us aren't even being asked to get better mileage? -[link\|http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=14107\|Molly Ivins]
Post #64,983 by boxley 11/25/02 6:25:41 PM Reply	extremely interesting, thanx will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] GRAYBOAR-Strangleur Extraodinaire "Have Thumbs Will Travel" Customised Asphyxiations No Gullet Too Big, No Weasand Too small My Motto Satisfaction Garoteed, or the Chokes on Me! Eric Flint
Post #65,140 by mmoffitt 11/26/02 10:58:55 AM Reply	Thanks. Makes my point rather nicely.
Post #65,153 by bepatient 11/26/02 11:37:04 AM Reply	Not until... ...the current system is modified to allow the "weeding out" you describe. Tripling the salaries doesn't eliminate bad teachers or the system that keeps them in place. Nor does it do anything to determine which teachers are bad. In fact...this study says directly that simply throwing money at it without other major revisions will have no real effect. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #65,163 by Simon_Jester 11/26/02 1:00:33 PM Reply	I missed in the report where it said anything In fact...this study says directly that simply throwing money at it without other major revisions will have no real effect. I missed in this report where is said that "simply throwing money at it" will have any effect on anything. (As far as I could determine, this was merely a comparision study of the pay rates of teachers in different countries.)
Post #65,168 by mmoffitt 11/26/02 1:31:22 PM Reply	Useful Table. [link\|http://www.aft.org/research/survey01/tables/tableI-2.html\|Beginning and Average Salaries 2001] Almost all states offer average beginning salaries in the mid to upper 20's. So, you just polished off your MS in Physics, Chemistry, Mathematics, etc. and you have excellent communicative skills as well as a pretty thorough understanding of your subject. Do you: a) Take a job paying $26,000/year understanding that often you'll be expected to take a zero per cent increase (because we don't want to raise taxes!) and if you're lucky you'll get 4%. And then understand that your "cap" salary after 25-30 years of service is typically <= $50,000/year. - OR - b) Take a job in the private sector paying >= $40,000/year with the potential for six figures in that same 25 to 30 year timeframe. See the point? Because we require a "vow of poverty" from our educators, guess what caliber of candidate we attract? That isn't going to change until a) and b) are compensated at least equally. bcnu, Mikem
Post #65,181 by Simon_Jester 11/26/02 2:21:56 PM Reply	Interesting table - but I don't see any sections of the report that claim "that simply throwing money at it without other major revisions will have no real effect." In short, (afaik) this report was a comparison of salaries of teachers, both by country and state: starting, (roughly) midterm and maximum. I'm trying to understand BP's argument that the report somehow shows an effect if teachers salaries were increased (good or bad). I may have missed it in the report. (I know I missed your chart in the report.)
Post #65,191 by mmoffitt 11/26/02 3:08:50 PM Reply	You're right. You didn't miss it, twasn't there.You aren't - counting Beep among "reliable sources" are you? <vbg>
Post #65,192 by Silverlock 11/26/02 3:10:42 PM Reply	What timing Just found [link\|http://www.cnn.com/2002/EDUCATION/11/26/education.rankings.reut/index.html\|This] at CNN. A ranking by country of student achievement in literacy, math and science. Does someone (Hi Beep) want to see if there are, in fact, any parallels between achievement or lack thereof and "throwing money at the problem"? Why should we ask our military to die for cheap oil when the rest of us aren't even being asked to get better mileage? -[link\|http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=14107\|Molly Ivins]
Post #65,195 by mmoffitt 11/26/02 3:43:45 PM Reply	2/3 above us pay better. Is "increased pay" the single solution? Of course not. I just don't see us getting much better when there is such a dramatic financial penalty for teaching. There are less painful ways to accomplish significantly increasing teachers salaries than increasing taxes, however. Back in the day, school teachers were exempt from paying Federal Taxes. I'd include FICA and State taxes as well, but let them be eligible for any SS benefits. It wouldn't cost that much and it would mean a hell of an increase in take-home pay for teachers (might even bring them inline with the rest of us). Don't want to reward the "old wood"? Fine. Make these exemptions only for new teachers entering the field, then figure out some way to "merit" the others into the exemptions. It's curious to me that all these "free marketers" apparently lose faith when it comes to teaching. They know that at times when talent is tough to find, they need to increase their offerings to attract the best and brightest, but somehow they don't want that philosophy applied to teaching the next generation.
Post #65,205 by bepatient 11/26/02 4:00:47 PM Reply	I have no issue... ...with raising the pay of teachers. The only issue I have is doing so with no regard for their ability and doing so in the current system which inhibits (makes near impossible) the elimination of poor performers. Your solution is "give it to everybody regardless"...mine is give it to those that deserve it...get rid of the deadwood and make room for the talent that you want to bring in. Your view is that the only current measure we have should be eliminated. Mine is that until a better alternative can be proposed..that the current system be used to identify and support outstanding performers. Tradition has been..."just give them more money". (triple their salary) My view is >That does NOT work. The linked study supports my view. Structural changes to the system are necessary in addition to money...and without those changes...any further simple monetary investment is just waste. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #65,516 by mmoffitt 11/27/02 4:44:00 PM Reply	Re: "Triple their salary...That doesn't work" Exactly when did we try that?
Post #65,519 by boxley 11/27/02 4:48:12 PM Reply	Alaska from 1967 thru 1973 will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] GRAYBOAR-Strangleur Extraodinaire "Have Thumbs Will Travel" Customised Asphyxiations No Gullet Too Big, No Weasand Too small My Motto Satisfaction Garoteed, or the Chokes on Me! Eric Flint
Post #65,520 by mmoffitt 11/27/02 4:52:28 PM Reply	What were you paying them in 1966? Starting salary for 2000 was 36K, were you actually paying teachers 12K/year to start in Alaska? Or did you have massive cuts after 73? [link\|http://www.aft.org/research/survey01/tables/tableI-2.html\|Starting and average salaries by State]
Post #65,528 by boxley 11/27/02 5:20:35 PM Reply	starting salary where? in the lysd it can be from 38-47k depending on a few items and ranges to 67.9 at the top end. [link\|http://www.lksd.org/jobs/certsalary.html\|http://www.lksd.org/jobs/certsalary.html] I am looking for the data but prior to the pipleline salaries for teachers in 66 were well below 10k per year as I remember from different print sources. When the pipeline came in and a clerical worker was getting $15 dollars an hour working 12 hr shifts 7-21 days on and not much off all salaries for all public positions triple during that time period for basic government service positions. I will look further and let you know. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] GRAYBOAR-Strangleur Extraodinaire "Have Thumbs Will Travel" Customised Asphyxiations No Gullet Too Big, No Weasand Too small My Motto Satisfaction Garoteed, or the Chokes on Me! Eric Flint
Post #65,199 by bepatient 11/26/02 3:49:24 PM Reply	Re: Interesting table - but I IV. Conclusions and Recommendations Investing more money in education will have little effect unless it improves the teaching force and teachers are used efficiently to meet the educational needs of children. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #65,201 by mmoffitt 11/26/02 3:52:47 PM Reply	"UNLESS IT WILL IMPROVE THE TEACHING FORCE" You think giving them decent salaries (i.e. competitive w/ Bizness positions) wouldn't have that effect?
Post #65,204 by inthane-chan 11/26/02 4:00:31 PM 11/26/02 4:01:01 PM Reply	Carrot AND stick, people, carrot AND stick... #1. You MUST raise teacher salaries. The folks who can get jobs elsewhere, are, unless they love it too much for their own good. #2. You MUST hold teachers accountable via some mechanism. Otherwise you get teachers like Mr. Hopkins, my Japanese teacher who passed me with an A 3 years straight, although I never quite got down the Hirigana/Katakana, let alone the first 100 Kanji... And couldn't even conjugate verbs properly. All he cared was that I played a decent game of Shogi. So, raise salaries, (which will increase the pool of applicants) and then get rid of the ones that don't produce. Do both at the same time. You done bitching at each other? Good. Edited by inthane-chan Nov. 26, 2002, 04:01:01 PM EST Expand All History
Post #65,206 by bepatient 11/26/02 4:04:36 PM Reply	Other post typed while mm was having an aneurysm ;) You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #65,217 by Simon_Jester 11/26/02 4:32:21 PM Reply	Thank you
Post #65,240 by boxley 11/26/02 7:20:24 PM Reply	you missed the benefit package of the public sector in private industry you have layoffs, at will work etc. In government you have a guarrantied job great cradle to grave health benefits and a pension that will probably be worth something when you retire. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] GRAYBOAR-Strangleur Extraodinaire "Have Thumbs Will Travel" Customised Asphyxiations No Gullet Too Big, No Weasand Too small My Motto Satisfaction Garoteed, or the Chokes on Me! Eric Flint
Post #65,301 by inthane-chan 11/26/02 11:03:19 PM Reply	The "benefits" of public sector employment, in Washington... state, that is. 1. Health insurance. You are welcome to join the shittiest health care plan (Group Health, AKA Group Death. I've had personal experience with this one folks, and it IS as bad as the name sounds) in Washington state, at premiums almost high enough that you could almost purchase individual insurance at their rates. 2. Retirement. Yeah, you get a public sector retirement - but only after the investments have been shot to hell by an overly aggressive investment group that stuck WAY too much money in the stock market, had a good portion of that money embezzeled by the state legislature, and you take a job at McDs or Walmart just so that you can pay your rent. Oh, and the Fire Fighters + Police Department just passed a massive "Fuck You" initiative which basically gives them the right to raid the public coffers whenever they feel like it for their own retirement funds, making it unlikely that any surplus will be around to make up the difference. Not that the legislature ever would, but hey, just accounting for that possibility. 3. Job security. Well, yeah, you've got it for now - but just wait for Dictator Shrub 'n crew to get around to that... Besides, who wants job security for a job that puts you in debt for your entire life, (student loans) fucks you on pay big-time, and makes you live on a starvation diet once they're done with you. Oh, did I mention that teacher salaries have lagged significantly behind other state employee salaries, and aren't included in the state employee collective bargaining? Yup, sounds like every other public sector job to me... Hell, we (the people) just passed an initiative to give every teacher in the state a cost of living raise every year so they wouldn't slide any more - mainly because the legislature sure as hell wasn't going to do it. Guess what - they're weaseling out of it, while bringing home the pork for their special projects by redefining exactly what a teacher is.
Post #65,082 by bluke 11/26/02 3:23:28 AM Reply	Working from home is not necessarily a bad thing Imagine if your boss came to you and said that you only need to be at work from 8:30 - 2:30 the rest of the hours you can work at home whenever you want. I think everyone here would jump at that offer. It gives you a tremendous amount of flexibility, you do the work when you want and you can make time for other activities. For example, I need to be in the office 9+ hours a day, and therefore when I get home many days my kids are asleep. If I could come home at 3PM, many days I would eat supper with my kids do things with them etc., and then after they go to sleep go back and do work. It is a tremendous thing to be able to decide that tonight you are going to work from 9PM - 11PM instead of having to be in the office from 3-5. In fact, I know teachers who take tests/papers with them when they go for a doctors/dentists appointment, and in the time that they are waiting they mark tests. I can't do that, my job is in the office.

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