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New Okay, this might seem a bit complicated.
Stalin was on the allies' side.

The "good" allies are invading from the west. The Soviets are "liberating countries" from the east. Countries like Poland and Lithuania. Keep these names in mind.

After the war, Germany (and Berlin) was divided in occupied zones.

US
British
French
Soviet

Meanwhile, we're still at war with Japan.

Russia starts invading Korea, Manchuria and so forth. Keep these names in mind along with the ones earlier.

So, eventually, WW II ends. On both fronts.

The Soviets turn most of the countries they've "liberated" into satellite states. Recall those names?

1947, President Truman institutes the Truman Doctrine. The US will "...support free people who are resisting attempted subjugation by armed minorities or by outside pressures..."

The US institutes the Marshall Plan.

The London Conferences are held. A West Germany government is to be built.

The Soviets blockade Berlin.

The Germans under Soviet rule see how much better the Germans in the west live under the Marshall Plan and start moving there. Lots of them move.

The Soviets lock down the borders.

And so forth.

The IMPORTANT item to note is the Truman Doctrine (of which the Marshall Plan was the economic implementation).

No, the division of Germany was NOT to punish the Germans. If you don't believe that, check out the literature on the London Conferences (and London Plan) and the Truman Doctrine.
New Is this when the wall (excuse me .. barrier) was built?
The Germans under Soviet rule see how much better the Germans in the west live under the Marshall Plan and start moving there. Lots of them move.

The Soviets lock down the borders.


Just wondering.
"A civilian gang of thieving lobbyists for the military industrial complex is running the White House. If to be against them is considered unpatriotic -- Hell, then call me a traitor."
-- Hunter S. Thompson
New Again, that's a bit complex.
A quick google check to find the specific dates....

1948 - 1949 - The Berlin Blockade. (no barrier, just the roads and railways are blocked)

1949 - Massive population shift from East Germany to West, continues until 1961

1952 - East Germany closes its border with West Germany. Special passes are needed to travel. (no barrier)

The Berlin Wall went up on 16 August 1961.

The border is fully barricaded in the 1960's.

Oh, something I just found while checking the dates...

President Truman's Foreign Service Advisor, George Kennan, developed the concept of "containment" for the Truman Doctrin.
     An open offer to Marlowe & Mike - (dmarker) - (177)
         I'll do it provided you give me a week in HK instead :-) -NT - (boxley)
         And your point is? - (ChrisR) - (3)
             Re: The point is - (dmarker) - (2)
                 Anti-Americanism is not new - (ChrisR) - (1)
                     Re: Good points & some contentions - (dmarker)
         Hmm paradise.... - (Mike) - (3)
             Hell... - (bepatient) - (1)
                 Now THAT'S funny! LOL -NT - (Mike)
             Re: Mike, here is a *fair* counter offer - (dmarker2)
         Here's a counter offer - (marlowe) - (161)
             Once again, you "miss" the point. - (Brandioch) - (159)
                 Been watching the news lately? - (Mike) - (158)
                     You and Marlowe. Two peas in a pod. - (Brandioch) - (157)
                         Just like the French...right? - (bepatient) - (7)
                             all those in favor of invading france raise your hands - (boxley) - (6)
                                 /me raises hands - (bepatient) - (1)
                                     Yeu shall neut have eur women or eur croissants! -NT - (deSitter)
                                 And they speak English with an outrajus accent. -NT - (Mike)
                                 Yeu stupide fewl! I fart in yeur generale direction! -NT - (deSitter) - (2)
                                     Fetch-ay la vache!!! -NT - (bepatient)
                                     Re: Non non non -c'est le grand petard - (dmarker)
                         Priceless - (Mike) - (148)
                             Re: Priceless - (bepatient)
                             Tee hee hee. I like it that Bill responded to you. - (Brandioch) - (65)
                                 Excuse me? - (bepatient) - (16)
                                     Did you miss the point? - (Brandioch) - (15)
                                         I never stated anything in this thread... - (bepatient)
                                         Ohhhhhh I see now - (Mike) - (13)
                                             Nice "cover". :) - (Brandioch) - (12)
                                                 Hard to understand context... - (bepatient) - (2)
                                                     I expect that from you. - (Brandioch) - (1)
                                                         You are amusing. - (bepatient)
                                                 Actually - (Mike) - (8)
                                                     And when you've been beaten and you know it..... - (Brandioch) - (7)
                                                         Context your honor........ Context......... CONTEXT! - (Mike) - (4)
                                                             No, now you need "reading with comprehension". - (Brandioch) - (3)
                                                                 Yes - (Mike) - (2)
                                                                     And... - (Mike) - (1)
                                                                         And... - (Mike)
                                                         Rofl wonder how long he will right shift before he realizes - (boxley) - (1)
                                                             I don't mind losing a battle to Brandi - (Mike)
                                 Oh god.......... new lows. - (Mike) - (47)
                                     Nah...he's been there before. - (bepatient)
                                     Which is it? - (Brandioch) - (45)
                                         Ah...using that to do what... - (bepatient) - (44)
                                             Nice try. - (Brandioch) - (43)
                                                 Hmmmmmm - (Mike) - (42)
                                                     THREE! - (Brandioch) - (41)
                                                         Excuse me moron...but thats hockey... - (bepatient) - (40)
                                                             Was that "moron" you said? To me? - (Brandioch) - (39)
                                                                 'Hat Trick' I first heard re motorcycle GP racing, - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                                     Cricket. - (ChrisR)
                                                                 Yes it was... - (bepatient) - (36)
                                                                     Hee hee hee. - (Brandioch) - (35)
                                                                         Ahhhh...thee of massive experience. - (bepatient) - (34)
                                                                             So you claim. - (Brandioch) - (33)
                                                                                 Classic - (bepatient) - (32)
                                                                                     That would be you. - (Brandioch) - (30)
                                                                                         Classic Part 2 - (bepatient) - (29)
                                                                                             I think I've demonstrated this sufficiently. - (Brandioch) - (28)
                                                                                                 Don't have it... - (bepatient) - (7)
                                                                                                     Knock off the lies. - (Brandioch) - (4)
                                                                                                         Nope. - (bepatient) - (3)
                                                                                                             I've already established your problems with context. - (Brandioch) - (2)
                                                                                                                 *fap* -NT - (pwhysall)
                                                                                                                 rofl -NT - (bepatient)
                                                                                                     Gonna be a dental floss tycoon? - (screamer) - (1)
                                                                                                         Bingo! Gonna be wearing my Python Boots too. - (bepatient)
                                                                                                 I back it up with facts LMAO - (Mike) - (19)
                                                                                                     Mike == clueless. - (Brandioch) - (18)
                                                                                                         Bad logic, bad facts - (Mike) - (17)
                                                                                                             So you say. - (Brandioch) - (16)
                                                                                                                 Jeez, will you *never* let go? - (wharris2) - (15)
                                                                                                                     I'm sorry, was I talking to you? - (Brandioch) - (14)
                                                                                                                         Because the S/N ratio in here is abyssmal - (admin) - (13)
                                                                                                                             And he was improving it? yes/no? - (Brandioch) - (12)
                                                                                                                                 are you insinuating I am not improving it? - (boxley)
                                                                                                                                 He was attempting to. - (admin) - (10)
                                                                                                                                     Futile hope, I'm afraid, Scott. - (wharris2)
                                                                                                                                     Allow me to make this perfectly clear. - (Brandioch) - (8)
                                                                                                                                         "I do not subscribe to political correctness." - (Silverlock) - (3)
                                                                                                                                             Check my reply to your other post. - (Brandioch) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                 point to a single example. - (Silverlock) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                     Those specific words? - (Brandioch)
                                                                                                                                         That much is obvious. - (admin) - (3)
                                                                                                                                             Let me put this in small words. - (Brandioch)
                                                                                                                                             Re: That much is obvious. - (wharris2) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                 Tell me about it. - (admin)
                                                                                     All in all... - (screamer)
                             Re: In defense of Brandioch - (dmarker) - (80)
                                 Thanks - (Mike)
                                 ROFLMAO. - (bepatient) - (2)
                                     Re: To you ? maybe - (dmarker) - (1)
                                         I'm sure there will be times... - (bepatient)
                                 Re: In defense of Brandioch - (deSitter) - (2)
                                     Experimentation, yes. Intuition, never. - (Brandioch) - (1)
                                         Didn't think I had it in me, did you Mr. Spock? -NT - (deSitter)
                                 Re: In defense of Brandioch - (Ashton)
                                 On liars... and grammatical tyrants... - (screamer) - (71)
                                     Thoughts - (Mike) - (5)
                                         I'm actually a fan of his style in other fora... - (screamer) - (1)
                                             I won't be holding my breath ;-) -NT - (bepatient)
                                         Awww, is the big bad man being mean to you? - (Brandioch) - (2)
                                             Typical. - (wharris2)
                                             Yes <snif> - (Mike)
                                     Care to link to that? - (Brandioch) - (64)
                                         Oh you need a link? - (boxley) - (4)
                                             Am I missing something? - (Brandioch) - (3)
                                                 He did have a "me dux". I think that means... - (Another Scott)
                                                 I did a search based on hopefully all of your posts :-) - (boxley) - (1)
                                                     Ah. I see now. - (Brandioch)
                                         Thank you... - (screamer) - (57)
                                             You have the same pattern as always. - (Brandioch) - (56)
                                                 Enough already - (Silverlock) - (5)
                                                     You left out the OTHER bits. - (Brandioch) - (4)
                                                         Smile - (Mike)
                                                         This sketch is just silly </Monty Python> - (Silverlock) - (2)
                                                             The Larch. - (pwhysall)
                                                             A man with three buttocks -NT - (snork)
                                                 Last chance... - (screamer) - (9)
                                                     Mon Dieu... - (bepatient)
                                                     Awww, are you having trouble with your memory? - (Brandioch) - (6)
                                                         Better conclusion - (Mike)
                                                         Thank you again... - (screamer) - (4)
                                                             Claim whatever you want. - (Brandioch) - (3)
                                                                 Deny, deny, deny - (Mike) - (2)
                                                                     What are you denying? -NT - (Brandioch) - (1)
                                                                         ????????????? - (Mike)
                                                     FYI - (Mike)
                                                 non sequiter - (ChrisR) - (35)
                                                     (grumble) non sequitur (no hyphen) -NT - (deSitter) - (1)
                                                         At least I left the hyphen out. :-) -NT - (ChrisR)
                                                     Again. - (Brandioch) - (31)
                                                         I recommend.... - (Mike)
                                                         Language is not mathematics - (ChrisR) - (29)
                                                             Good post - (Silverlock)
                                                             That was my point. - (Brandioch) - (27)
                                                                 ...and ceramic composites -NT - (altmann)
                                                                 Repitition is tedious - (ChrisR) - (25)
                                                                     Thanks for seeing my point. - (Brandioch) - (24)
                                                                         Strawman - (ChrisR) - (11)
                                                                             Please take some time and take some courses. - (Brandioch) - (10)
                                                                                 Pardon me. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                                                     I value your opinion. - (Brandioch)
                                                                                 If I tell you that fence is a wall and I will shoot you if - (boxley)
                                                                                 That's not an argument... - (ChrisR) - (6)
                                                                                     Again, - (Brandioch) - (5)
                                                                                         Rinse, Wash, Repeat - (ChrisR) - (4)
                                                                                             I'm breaking this down for you. - (Brandioch) - (3)
                                                                                                 The subsets are interchangeable.... - (ChrisR) - (2)
                                                                                                     Chris, you're arguing with an intractible ***hole. -NT - (wharris2)
                                                                                                     You might want to ask yourself a question. - (Brandioch)
                                                                         One last time... SLOWLY... - (screamer) - (11)
                                                                             Still there with the lies? - (Brandioch) - (10)
                                                                                 -----oooOOOooo---- -NT - (screamer) - (9)
                                                                                     I expected that from you. - (Brandioch) - (8)
                                                                                         This is beyond tiresome - (Silverlock) - (7)
                                                                                             The issue has been addressed. - (Brandioch) - (6)
                                                                                                 One time only - (Silverlock) - (5)
                                                                                                     Okay, this might seem a bit complicated. - (Brandioch) - (2)
                                                                                                         Is this when the wall (excuse me .. barrier) was built? - (Silverlock) - (1)
                                                                                                             Again, that's a bit complex. - (Brandioch)
                                                                                                     "The Iron Curtain" - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                                                                         Re: "The Iron Curtain" - (wharris2)
                                                     Re: non sequiter - (wharris2)
                                                 Give it a rest. - (pwhysall) - (3)
                                                     You don't understand. - (Brandioch) - (2)
                                                         *fap*fap*fap*fap* -NT - (pwhysall)
                                                         Just don't get any on your tie. -NT - (Mike)
                                         Re: Care to link to that? - (admin)
             Re: Out of touch with world in NY City ... - (dmarker2)
         Gentlemen! Gentlemen!___fighting in the War Room? - (Ashton) - (3)
             C'mon... - (bepatient) - (2)
                 Yes: sensory deprivation is part of the Remorse Training. -NT - (Ashton) - (1)
                     It'll be awfully hard to get in the mood... - (bepatient)
         Re: An open offer to Marlowe & Mike - (wharris2) - (1)
             Re: Sorry, please forgive, offer extended ... - (dmarker)

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