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New Anti-Americanism is not new
It's just turned up the rhetoric in support of the right of a Middle Eastern dictatorship.

The myth is that the events of 9/11 resulted in sympathy for the U.S. that disappeared when the Bush Administration decided to concentrate on Iraq. Truth is that any temporary sympathy for the U.S. vanished in the instant it decided to take action - in this case Afghanistan. That Pakistan vote you cite has more to do with the Taliban (Pushtans) getting routed. So, do you think that the U.S. should have bombed Afghanistan? If you answered yes, then that anti-Americanism in Pakistan is a foregone conclusion - even before you start discussing any other actions (the U.S. also empowered Musharaf).

Closer to Arabia, specifically Kuwait, I don't think the hatred emanating from the area is based strictly on Iraqis question. If it were the only issue, the Iranians, Kuwaitis and Saudis would probably be supportive of overthrowing Saddam. However, that is not the only issue - there is also the question of Palestine that overrides all other aspects in the MidEast. The countries in the region are not so much pissed off that we want to get rid of Saddam as they are pissed that we consider Saddam to be a much higher priority than the question of Palestine. (Those Kuwaitis that you singled out had watched news of Israelis actions prior to going postal).

Yes, I think that Bush has caused Anti-Americanism to rise because of his position on Iraq. So what happens if the U.S. never invades Iraq? It is strange how everyone proclaims that the U.S. has gone unilateral, when American troops are not doing anything in Iraq that they have not been doing for the past 10 years. Oh you mean that Bush is advocating a regime change, whether or not the UN or the EU sanctions military action. Last I checked, the US was waiting for the UN to pass a resolution, though the U.S. has one thing in mind and Russia and France another.

Of course, if the US wasn't threatening Iraq, it's likely that the rest of the world would instantly send money and manpower to Iraq and ignore all those pesky issues of what Saddam wants to do with that money. France, Germany, and Russia can try to cop that they are only interested in multilateralism, but the fact is that they are more than willing to do business with Iraq. Which brings up the other point. Even if the U.S. wasn't proposing a regime change, we've had Iraq carved up for the last 10 years. We've also had sanctions applied against the country. By all accounts, the war never ended, it just came to a ceasefire. The world may be mad that we are threatening to finish the job - but they were already mad that we were trying to apply economic sanctions.

The status quo in Iraq is not sustainable. We need to get our planes out of there and lift the economic sanctions. How we do this is the real question. The peace of the 1990 war was a false peace.

Now you tell me: You say the world doesn't want further intervention? What's the alternative? Permanent protection of the Kurds in the North and Shiites in the south is not an option. Sanctions tend cause as much Anti-Americanism as a proposed US intervention. So should we get our aircraft out of Iraqis airspace and abandon the sanctions? And what would be the result?

Anti US feeling has taken off in Germany France is growing in Italy - is rampant in the Arab world.
I don't think that Anti-Americanism of Europe has much in common with Anti-Americanism in the Islamic world. The fundamentalist Islamic movement, after all, doesn't really make a distinction between American, European or Australian - they're all Westerners.

It also bothers me that news of it is being suppressed. Bush doesn't want ordinary US citizens to know the effects his admin's policies are creating.
Ain't no suppression here - it's not like we don't know that Anti-Americanism has become rampant since the fall of the Berlin Wall. Don't confuse suppression with the fact that Americans don't equate differences of opinion with the right of people to blow themselves up in large crowds of civilians.

Perhaps instead of blaming everything on those ugly Americans, the EU, Russia and the UN could actually propose a reasonable resolution (one that has teeth) to get Iraq to abide by the terms of the UN resolutions. While they're at it, maybe they could get the Palestinians and Israelis to come to terms.

Like it or not, these are the two most important issues in the world today. I think you'll find that without the US neither of these will get very far. It'd be nice to see better American leadership on these issues. But it'd be nice also if the rest of the world would provide some leadership every once in a while - beyond merely promoting Anti-Americanism as their claim to fame. So Germany and France don't want the U.S. to go to war in Iraq - what's your alternative besides do nothing and hope the problem goes away.
New Re: Good points & some contentions


will respond point by point when time permits - you raise many interesting issues & views

Cheers

Doug
     An open offer to Marlowe & Mike - (dmarker) - (177)
         I'll do it provided you give me a week in HK instead :-) -NT - (boxley)
         And your point is? - (ChrisR) - (3)
             Re: The point is - (dmarker) - (2)
                 Anti-Americanism is not new - (ChrisR) - (1)
                     Re: Good points & some contentions - (dmarker)
         Hmm paradise.... - (Mike) - (3)
             Hell... - (bepatient) - (1)
                 Now THAT'S funny! LOL -NT - (Mike)
             Re: Mike, here is a *fair* counter offer - (dmarker2)
         Here's a counter offer - (marlowe) - (161)
             Once again, you "miss" the point. - (Brandioch) - (159)
                 Been watching the news lately? - (Mike) - (158)
                     You and Marlowe. Two peas in a pod. - (Brandioch) - (157)
                         Just like the French...right? - (bepatient) - (7)
                             all those in favor of invading france raise your hands - (boxley) - (6)
                                 /me raises hands - (bepatient) - (1)
                                     Yeu shall neut have eur women or eur croissants! -NT - (deSitter)
                                 And they speak English with an outrajus accent. -NT - (Mike)
                                 Yeu stupide fewl! I fart in yeur generale direction! -NT - (deSitter) - (2)
                                     Fetch-ay la vache!!! -NT - (bepatient)
                                     Re: Non non non -c'est le grand petard - (dmarker)
                         Priceless - (Mike) - (148)
                             Re: Priceless - (bepatient)
                             Tee hee hee. I like it that Bill responded to you. - (Brandioch) - (65)
                                 Excuse me? - (bepatient) - (16)
                                     Did you miss the point? - (Brandioch) - (15)
                                         I never stated anything in this thread... - (bepatient)
                                         Ohhhhhh I see now - (Mike) - (13)
                                             Nice "cover". :) - (Brandioch) - (12)
                                                 Hard to understand context... - (bepatient) - (2)
                                                     I expect that from you. - (Brandioch) - (1)
                                                         You are amusing. - (bepatient)
                                                 Actually - (Mike) - (8)
                                                     And when you've been beaten and you know it..... - (Brandioch) - (7)
                                                         Context your honor........ Context......... CONTEXT! - (Mike) - (4)
                                                             No, now you need "reading with comprehension". - (Brandioch) - (3)
                                                                 Yes - (Mike) - (2)
                                                                     And... - (Mike) - (1)
                                                                         And... - (Mike)
                                                         Rofl wonder how long he will right shift before he realizes - (boxley) - (1)
                                                             I don't mind losing a battle to Brandi - (Mike)
                                 Oh god.......... new lows. - (Mike) - (47)
                                     Nah...he's been there before. - (bepatient)
                                     Which is it? - (Brandioch) - (45)
                                         Ah...using that to do what... - (bepatient) - (44)
                                             Nice try. - (Brandioch) - (43)
                                                 Hmmmmmm - (Mike) - (42)
                                                     THREE! - (Brandioch) - (41)
                                                         Excuse me moron...but thats hockey... - (bepatient) - (40)
                                                             Was that "moron" you said? To me? - (Brandioch) - (39)
                                                                 'Hat Trick' I first heard re motorcycle GP racing, - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                                     Cricket. - (ChrisR)
                                                                 Yes it was... - (bepatient) - (36)
                                                                     Hee hee hee. - (Brandioch) - (35)
                                                                         Ahhhh...thee of massive experience. - (bepatient) - (34)
                                                                             So you claim. - (Brandioch) - (33)
                                                                                 Classic - (bepatient) - (32)
                                                                                     That would be you. - (Brandioch) - (30)
                                                                                         Classic Part 2 - (bepatient) - (29)
                                                                                             I think I've demonstrated this sufficiently. - (Brandioch) - (28)
                                                                                                 Don't have it... - (bepatient) - (7)
                                                                                                     Knock off the lies. - (Brandioch) - (4)
                                                                                                         Nope. - (bepatient) - (3)
                                                                                                             I've already established your problems with context. - (Brandioch) - (2)
                                                                                                                 *fap* -NT - (pwhysall)
                                                                                                                 rofl -NT - (bepatient)
                                                                                                     Gonna be a dental floss tycoon? - (screamer) - (1)
                                                                                                         Bingo! Gonna be wearing my Python Boots too. - (bepatient)
                                                                                                 I back it up with facts LMAO - (Mike) - (19)
                                                                                                     Mike == clueless. - (Brandioch) - (18)
                                                                                                         Bad logic, bad facts - (Mike) - (17)
                                                                                                             So you say. - (Brandioch) - (16)
                                                                                                                 Jeez, will you *never* let go? - (wharris2) - (15)
                                                                                                                     I'm sorry, was I talking to you? - (Brandioch) - (14)
                                                                                                                         Because the S/N ratio in here is abyssmal - (admin) - (13)
                                                                                                                             And he was improving it? yes/no? - (Brandioch) - (12)
                                                                                                                                 are you insinuating I am not improving it? - (boxley)
                                                                                                                                 He was attempting to. - (admin) - (10)
                                                                                                                                     Futile hope, I'm afraid, Scott. - (wharris2)
                                                                                                                                     Allow me to make this perfectly clear. - (Brandioch) - (8)
                                                                                                                                         "I do not subscribe to political correctness." - (Silverlock) - (3)
                                                                                                                                             Check my reply to your other post. - (Brandioch) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                 point to a single example. - (Silverlock) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                     Those specific words? - (Brandioch)
                                                                                                                                         That much is obvious. - (admin) - (3)
                                                                                                                                             Let me put this in small words. - (Brandioch)
                                                                                                                                             Re: That much is obvious. - (wharris2) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                 Tell me about it. - (admin)
                                                                                     All in all... - (screamer)
                             Re: In defense of Brandioch - (dmarker) - (80)
                                 Thanks - (Mike)
                                 ROFLMAO. - (bepatient) - (2)
                                     Re: To you ? maybe - (dmarker) - (1)
                                         I'm sure there will be times... - (bepatient)
                                 Re: In defense of Brandioch - (deSitter) - (2)
                                     Experimentation, yes. Intuition, never. - (Brandioch) - (1)
                                         Didn't think I had it in me, did you Mr. Spock? -NT - (deSitter)
                                 Re: In defense of Brandioch - (Ashton)
                                 On liars... and grammatical tyrants... - (screamer) - (71)
                                     Thoughts - (Mike) - (5)
                                         I'm actually a fan of his style in other fora... - (screamer) - (1)
                                             I won't be holding my breath ;-) -NT - (bepatient)
                                         Awww, is the big bad man being mean to you? - (Brandioch) - (2)
                                             Typical. - (wharris2)
                                             Yes <snif> - (Mike)
                                     Care to link to that? - (Brandioch) - (64)
                                         Oh you need a link? - (boxley) - (4)
                                             Am I missing something? - (Brandioch) - (3)
                                                 He did have a "me dux". I think that means... - (Another Scott)
                                                 I did a search based on hopefully all of your posts :-) - (boxley) - (1)
                                                     Ah. I see now. - (Brandioch)
                                         Thank you... - (screamer) - (57)
                                             You have the same pattern as always. - (Brandioch) - (56)
                                                 Enough already - (Silverlock) - (5)
                                                     You left out the OTHER bits. - (Brandioch) - (4)
                                                         Smile - (Mike)
                                                         This sketch is just silly </Monty Python> - (Silverlock) - (2)
                                                             The Larch. - (pwhysall)
                                                             A man with three buttocks -NT - (snork)
                                                 Last chance... - (screamer) - (9)
                                                     Mon Dieu... - (bepatient)
                                                     Awww, are you having trouble with your memory? - (Brandioch) - (6)
                                                         Better conclusion - (Mike)
                                                         Thank you again... - (screamer) - (4)
                                                             Claim whatever you want. - (Brandioch) - (3)
                                                                 Deny, deny, deny - (Mike) - (2)
                                                                     What are you denying? -NT - (Brandioch) - (1)
                                                                         ????????????? - (Mike)
                                                     FYI - (Mike)
                                                 non sequiter - (ChrisR) - (35)
                                                     (grumble) non sequitur (no hyphen) -NT - (deSitter) - (1)
                                                         At least I left the hyphen out. :-) -NT - (ChrisR)
                                                     Again. - (Brandioch) - (31)
                                                         I recommend.... - (Mike)
                                                         Language is not mathematics - (ChrisR) - (29)
                                                             Good post - (Silverlock)
                                                             That was my point. - (Brandioch) - (27)
                                                                 ...and ceramic composites -NT - (altmann)
                                                                 Repitition is tedious - (ChrisR) - (25)
                                                                     Thanks for seeing my point. - (Brandioch) - (24)
                                                                         Strawman - (ChrisR) - (11)
                                                                             Please take some time and take some courses. - (Brandioch) - (10)
                                                                                 Pardon me. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                                                     I value your opinion. - (Brandioch)
                                                                                 If I tell you that fence is a wall and I will shoot you if - (boxley)
                                                                                 That's not an argument... - (ChrisR) - (6)
                                                                                     Again, - (Brandioch) - (5)
                                                                                         Rinse, Wash, Repeat - (ChrisR) - (4)
                                                                                             I'm breaking this down for you. - (Brandioch) - (3)
                                                                                                 The subsets are interchangeable.... - (ChrisR) - (2)
                                                                                                     Chris, you're arguing with an intractible ***hole. -NT - (wharris2)
                                                                                                     You might want to ask yourself a question. - (Brandioch)
                                                                         One last time... SLOWLY... - (screamer) - (11)
                                                                             Still there with the lies? - (Brandioch) - (10)
                                                                                 -----oooOOOooo---- -NT - (screamer) - (9)
                                                                                     I expected that from you. - (Brandioch) - (8)
                                                                                         This is beyond tiresome - (Silverlock) - (7)
                                                                                             The issue has been addressed. - (Brandioch) - (6)
                                                                                                 One time only - (Silverlock) - (5)
                                                                                                     Okay, this might seem a bit complicated. - (Brandioch) - (2)
                                                                                                         Is this when the wall (excuse me .. barrier) was built? - (Silverlock) - (1)
                                                                                                             Again, that's a bit complex. - (Brandioch)
                                                                                                     "The Iron Curtain" - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                                                                         Re: "The Iron Curtain" - (wharris2)
                                                     Re: non sequiter - (wharris2)
                                                 Give it a rest. - (pwhysall) - (3)
                                                     You don't understand. - (Brandioch) - (2)
                                                         *fap*fap*fap*fap* -NT - (pwhysall)
                                                         Just don't get any on your tie. -NT - (Mike)
                                         Re: Care to link to that? - (admin)
             Re: Out of touch with world in NY City ... - (dmarker2)
         Gentlemen! Gentlemen!___fighting in the War Room? - (Ashton) - (3)
             C'mon... - (bepatient) - (2)
                 Yes: sensory deprivation is part of the Remorse Training. -NT - (Ashton) - (1)
                     It'll be awfully hard to get in the mood... - (bepatient)
         Re: An open offer to Marlowe & Mike - (wharris2) - (1)
             Re: Sorry, please forgive, offer extended ... - (dmarker)

Give me someone I can vote for is all I ask.
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