Don't use hotmail

Post #46,899 by imric 7/25/02 7:21:40 PM Reply	Don't use hotmail [link\|http://news.com.com/2100-1023-946430.html?tag=fd_top\|The management sucks]. Imric's Tips for Living Paranoia Is a Survival Trait Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised... Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
Post #46,903 by Brandioch 7/25/02 7:50:42 PM Reply	How many admins out there? Shah said the deletion of old sent messages is part of Microsoft's plan to help people manage their e-mail, adding the company figured "if it's 30 days or older, it's probably safe to go ahead and delete that." I'm currently going through email from 1997 and checking to make sure that the people still don't need it. :) No one I know of wants any help managing their email.
Post #46,910 by wharris2 7/25/02 8:27:53 PM Reply	I was always famous for saving Email Wherever I went, I would keep my old Email. I used to have Email (unwisely, as it turns out, stored/forwarded/whatever at work) dating from 1987 until the IT people couldn't or wouldn't restore my home directory when a disk crashed. (I think it's "couldn't", but I suppose it was time I weeded out Email from people I'd not seen for a dozen years.) (But forced non-selective weeding sucks.) Not sure if that sucks more than having to move to Microsoft Exchange. The lawyers would mostly rather be what they are than get out of the way even if the cost was Hammerfall. - Jerry Pournelle
Post #46,978 by Ashton 7/26/02 3:55:38 AM Reply	My dbase also. Odd to hear that you are considered a maverick for doing so. Properly sorted into relevant folders - lots of exchanges are the history of certain events. No retyping, summarizing, silly notes needed: you have the Originals. Obviously those dependent upon others' servers and arbitrary judgments: no longer can rely upon this method. Small prediction then: those with the smarts to see the value in saving at least certain messages in a somewhat organized way - will be saving these on local storage / burning CDs periodically. This will take more handling time and slow access considerably. (Of course too, lock-in to a particular mail-format is the same concern here as - trusting anything permanent to any M$ format.) As to Hotmail and M$' fruitless attempts to get people to move to the paid 'service' (0.3% so far..) -- well, what did anyone expect of M$: customer concern as a prority ?! I can't imagine the naivete of the ones whining about having left un-Backed-up material THERE forever. Oh well - it's just words. Ashton
Post #46,980 by wharris2 7/26/02 4:04:57 AM Reply	More complications Nowdays, there comes "document retention" policies into play. Retain (even CYA stuff) beyond two or three years and you may be called on the carpet. If life were fair, Bill and Microsoft would still be regretting not having a three-year (or whatever) shredding (even of backup tapes) policy. Life isn't fair and the DOJ is choosing to ignore "knife the baby" Email, oh well. The lawyers would mostly rather be what they are than get out of the way even if the cost was Hammerfall. - Jerry Pournelle
Post #46,939 by andread 7/25/02 11:24:24 PM Reply	admins out here delete sent mail all the time there is a notice that appears in the inbox that the items have been put in deleted folder if you don't clean up the deleted folder those messages may go to 1.5 MB limit A Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #46,965 by wharris2 7/26/02 2:30:00 AM Reply	You serious? Some "sent mail" I have sent has been important for years. I save sent mail both for information and for CYA; important stuff that somehow never got into product documentation, or something someone says I told them to do something (which I didn't) and I forward the (saved) mail in which I explicitly say DON'T DO THAT, generally ends any argument. Of course that can be faked, but I've never had anyone claim I faked the sent mail I saved. And since everyone knows I save all my mail since the Beginning of Time (or as close as I can get to that), I don't think I've ever had more than a couple "you never said" arguments. The lawyers would mostly rather be what they are than get out of the way even if the cost was Hammerfall. - Jerry Pournelle
Post #47,013 by andread 7/26/02 9:15:55 AM Reply	not the end of the world messages can be saved elsewhere than 'in' email even the lowliest copmputer illiterate here has a strategy for managing mail that doesn't involve the corporate server A Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #47,021 by imric 7/26/02 9:49:59 AM Reply	True. My point was that a major change of policy like this 'sprung' on users is at best poor management. Imric's Tips for Living Paranoia Is a Survival Trait Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised... Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
Post #47,023 by drewk 7/26/02 9:54:15 AM Reply	It wasn't totally 'sprung' From the [link\|http://news.com.com/2100-1023-946430.html\|article]: MSN product manager Parul Shah said that at least the company warned people before trashing the messages. In mid-June, the company sent out an e-mail that included notification that old messages in the Sent file would be deleted, Shah said. Sounds like they had enough warning. === Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #47,024 by imric 7/26/02 9:59:07 AM Reply	Yup. You're right. I should have done more than skim the article. Imric's Tips for Living Paranoia Is a Survival Trait Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised... Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
Post #47,057 by Andrew Grygus 7/26/02 12:49:38 PM Reply	Nobody has yet admitted to seeing that message. Maybe it came out right after the spam was let loose, so all the mailboxes were full and it got bounced - or at least that's an excuse Microsoft can use. "If you'd cleaned out your box, you'd have gotten the message - so you see why we have to delete stuff to help you keep your box clean". [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #47,063 by Brandioch 7/26/02 1:19:56 PM Reply	I use hotmail and I don't read them anymore. MS sends way too much spam to the hotmail users. I just delete everything I see from them now without opening it.
Post #47,089 by andread 7/26/02 6:30:39 PM Reply	Re: Nobody has yet admitted to seeing that message. I think I got it at least I removed all the mail from my sent folder at hotmail and into another email address A Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #46,908 by inthane-chan 7/25/02 8:20:05 PM Reply	News flash! The Pope is Catholic! :) There are 10 types of people. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Post #46,937 by Andrew Grygus 7/25/02 11:19:47 PM Reply	Survival of the fittest Depending on a free service Depending on Microsoft This person doesn't make the cut. Sorry, evolution is cruel, but inevitable. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #46,953 by orion 7/26/02 12:21:25 AM Reply	I'd like not to but people keep sending to my Hotmail account. I even get recruiters that email me at my Hotmail account. But it fills up with junk mail so quickly. If a Headhunter sends me a Word Document on information about their company, there goes about a megabyte of my storage. Then once the 2M limit has been reached, the email bounces. *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #46,988 by kmself 7/26/02 6:14:20 AM Reply	Stop using it... ...stop advertising it. Tell everyone you give a shit about where to send mail. Advertise the new account. Hotmail can purge your spam every 30 days, whether you read it or not. -- Karsten M. Self [link\|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com\|kmself@ix.netcom.com] [link\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/\|[link\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]] What part of "gestalt" don't you understand? [link\|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/\|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever. Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead. [link\|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html\|[link\|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html\|http://www.eff.org/...a_alert.html]]
Post #47,001 by pwhysall 7/26/02 8:23:56 AM Reply	I let mine die. After 90 days of inactivity, they kill the accounts. Both my Hotmail and Yahoo accounts are now dead. There are better places to get free email accounts. I'm currently happy with my orange.net account, not least because I can get to it easily via my GPRS phone. (Orange is my mobile phone provider). Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #47,085 by orion 7/26/02 4:57:47 PM Reply	Wish I could I told everyone I knew to use my new address, but they keep sending to the Hotmail account. If I close it out, the mail will bounce and I will never hear from some people I know again. Heck, even Boxley sent mail to my Hotmail account and I think he has my bigfoot and telocity accounts. If I let my Hotmail account expire, I wouldn't have gotten that job description from him. Is it my fault that some people don't know how to change the email used in their address books? *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #47,122 by kmself 7/26/02 10:29:41 PM Reply	Wrong question Is it my fault that some people don't know how to change the email used in their address books? Is it your responsibility? No. By your logic, nobody would ever move, get married (in some cultures, one spouse changes names).... You've got one knack I've really got to give you credit for: coming up with reasons not to do the Right Thing. -- Karsten M. Self [link\|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com\|kmself@ix.netcom.com] [link\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/\|[link\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]] What part of "gestalt" don't you understand? [link\|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/\|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever. Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead. [link\|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html\|[link\|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html\|http://www.eff.org/...a_alert.html]]
Post #47,125 by orion 7/26/02 10:58:48 PM Reply	What is the right things anyway? Leaving Hotmail? Is that the right thing to do, or just clear out my inbox enough to get those messages from those who haven't figured out that my Hotmail account isn't accessed as much as my other one? *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #47,157 by static 7/27/02 3:36:16 AM Reply	Does it have an auto-responder? Whilst I wouldn't put it past MS to not implement such a feature, I can think of reasons why it they might. But you need one that replies to al-- well, a list of addresses you know should be sending to the correct address that they should be using the new, correct address that you've already given them. Wade. "Ah. One of the difficult questions."
Post #47,176 by orion 7/27/02 10:59:55 AM Reply	Not that I can find if they copied off of Yahoo Mail, they could copy the vacation message which would last for X days. Which basically can say anything I want it to. But Microsoft doesn't always copy all of the features of their competition, just the popular ones. :) *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #47,216 by kmself 7/27/02 5:26:24 PM Reply	Wrong question It's not the "right things" part of the comment. It's the excuses. Stop looking for (or at) reasons not to do things. Strip the words "I can't" and "because" from your language. Report on why you can do things. Regarding your sig: stop acknowledging your freedom and start acting on it. And if that means filing for full disability, then do it. -- Karsten M. Self [link\|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com\|kmself@ix.netcom.com] [link\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/\|[link\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]] What part of "gestalt" don't you understand? [link\|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/\|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever. Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead. [link\|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html\|[link\|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html\|http://www.eff.org/...a_alert.html]]
Post #47,221 by orion 7/27/02 5:38:14 PM Reply	Everything I do is wrong no matter what I do, it seems to be criticized by anyone as being wrong. I am incapabile of making my own decisions anymore, as apparently anything I do leads to bad results. I ought to do the world a favor and just drive off a cliff somewhere. *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #47,226 by Andrew Grygus 7/27/02 6:14:25 PM Reply	That would be a wrong decision. Self pity is ugly, self centered and leads nowhere you really want to go. If you make that many bad decisions, you're probably doing it deliberately. Figure out what you're getting out of it - then find some better reward to aim for. "I'm going to fail, so I might as well just go ahead and fail" is not a good philosophy for a fulfilling life. Besides, driving over a cliff is self centered and rightly illegal, because of all the messes everybody else has to clean up afterwards. We're all going to be pretty pissed off at you if you do that. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #47,233 by imric 7/27/02 7:07:48 PM Reply	Everything you DO is right, my friend! Imric's Tips for Living Paranoia Is a Survival Trait Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised... Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
Post #47,235 by kmself 7/27/02 7:11:44 PM 7/28/02 12:05:49 AM Reply	Failure is a great learning tool ...trust me on this. Book I ran across at [link\|http://www.keplers.com/\|Kepler's] the other day: [link\|http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=1-1576751325-0\|The Power of Failure] (Charles C Manz, ISBN:1576751325). It's somewhat typical of the busines / self-help set, but I like the premise. It's that old line -- if you don't fail (at least sometimes), you're not trying hard enough. Some of the [link\|http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks\|more interesting computer & technology reading] focuses specifically on to topic of failure. That and [link\|http://online.securityfocus.com/archive/1\|this] are on my daily reading list. Failure also makes for [link\|http://www.k19movie.com/\|fascinating stories] (and "blue light special" will never have the same meaning to me again). The classic examples are Edison and Colonel Saunders -- each discovered thousands of things that didn't work, or thousands of people who weren't interested in a chicken recipie. You were discussing recently programming projects to try, and it was pointed out that there were existing similar tools. Your response was to throw up your hands and say "I can't come up with any original ideas". My own, in a similar situation, is to think "Gee, someone else figured this was useful enough to develop, so I'm clearly on the right track, let's see if what they did needs any improvement". I knew someone who blamed me for lifes problems "you make me..." was a favorite phrase. Within your own capacities, this is almost always a convenient lie. The world acts, you react. If your natural inclination is to react in a negative manner, then muster whatever strength of spirit you have to turn that response into a positive. And if it's possible to get away from the negative environment, this is also a plus. Suicide may make sense: it stops the bad parts. The side-effect is that it stops all the good parts as well. If there are no good bits left (you're dying of cancer; the voices won't stop; the building has been hit by planes, is on fire, and will collapse around you), the decision may truly be the right one. It's a really piss-poor revenge tactic though -- we forget the ones we love quickly enough; the people who made your life miserably will care less about your death. It's also a truly once-in-a-lifetime decision. It's an option which has been considered by many people, more than you may think. The ones still talking either decided against -- or decided not to decide. Again, that's a matter of your electing to exercise choice or not. My own decision -- a very concious one -- many years ago after a very difficult set of events, was that death seemed like an awfully boring alternative, and I'd eventually find out whether I wanted to or not. Life is change and challenge, death is stasis. So I'm still here and enjoying (most of) the ride. -- Karsten M. Self [link\|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com\|kmself@ix.netcom.com] [link\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/\|[link\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]] What part of "gestalt" don't you understand? [link\|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/\|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever. Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead. [link\|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html\|[link\|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html\|http://www.eff.org/...a_alert.html]] Edited by kmself July 27, 2002, 07:15:38 PM EDT Edited by kmself July 28, 2002, 12:05:49 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #47,239 by ben_tilly 7/27/02 7:52:52 PM Reply	As long as you learn from it For instance take your failure to put an http:// in front of www.keplers.com... Sorry. Serious for a moment. What you say about suicide is true. For me the single most important and best decision that I ever made was to seriously confront the question of whether I wanted to kill myself or not. My answer was to figure out that if I couldn't find a way to make it better, then I did - even though I was remarkably loathe to do so. Which meant that I really, really wanted to figure out how to make my life better. (And for that I had to figure out what I wanted out of life, which it turns out is to be satisfied with how I live the damned thing.) What was important there was not that I reached a moment of crises or being a mess. It was the fact that doing so left me wanting to do something about it. A decision which still motivates me over half my life later. Failure uncoupled with facing and doing something about it is debilitating. The ability to face and learn from failure is the greatest strength you can have. I am deadly serious when I say that a major failing of our society and school system is that we do not teach our children how to fail from a young age. Because without failure, there is no success. And no person is so marked for success that they get there without failing along the way. Cheers, Ben PS One of my favorite books is The Millionaire Next Door, and it is favorite because of a section that nobody else seems to care about. What fascinated me was the section on family dynamics for families with money. The trend was clear. Children of rich people who allow mommy and daddy to provide a safety blanket fail. They are dependent, needy, have low self-esteem, and blow their inheritances. The chilren of rich people who succeed are the ones who actively tell their parents where they can put their support, and then go about building their own lives. Think about that. An offer of a million bucks isn't worth as much as the right attitude. Literally! "... I couldn't see how anyone could be educated by this self-propagating system in which people pass exams, teach others to pass exams, but nobody knows anything." --Richard Feynman
Post #47,172 by ben_tilly 7/27/02 10:20:18 AM Reply	Do what I did Check hotmail weekly and reply to every message from someone you want to hear from again with a message saying that your email address has changed. If they send it again to the old address, then you send a very annoyed email from your new address saying that this is now your email address. After a month change that to bi-weekly. Cheers, Ben "... I couldn't see how anyone could be educated by this self-propagating system in which people pass exams, teach others to pass exams, but nobody knows anything." --Richard Feynman
Post #47,173 by Andrew Grygus 7/27/02 10:28:06 AM Reply	They're probably hitting 'reply' on old mail . . So the best thing to do is to respond from you new account, and mention there that you have a new address. That gets it from two angles. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #47,177 by orion 7/27/02 11:01:38 AM Reply	I've done that they still use my Hotmail account. Recruiters as well that I used to talk to in 1997, use my Hotmail account despite me emailing them from my Bigfoot and Telocity accounts. If I close down my Hotmail account, I lose contact with them. *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #47,257 by static 7/28/02 9:23:18 AM Reply	No, you don't. Because you just indicated that you have their address. Email them again - from your new address - informing them that you are checking that they have your new address because your HotMail one doesn't work anymore and could they make sure they update their database and reply. (Those that don't reply are not worth pursuing.) Wade. "Ah. One of the difficult questions."
Post #47,187 by ben_tilly 7/27/02 1:09:21 PM Reply	That is what I did the second time around Those who didn't get the point after 2-3 iterations I judged as having failed an IQ test... :-) Cheers, Ben "... I couldn't see how anyone could be educated by this self-propagating system in which people pass exams, teach others to pass exams, but nobody knows anything." --Richard Feynman
Post #46,989 by static 7/26/02 6:56:26 AM Reply	We need another reason? "Ah. One of the difficult questions."
Post #47,012 by tuberculosis 7/26/02 9:07:45 AM Reply	I just use it to pick up teenaged girls online :-P MS helps me hide the evidence that way. (I say uh, I say, that was a JOKE, son.) I am out of the country for the duration of the Bush administration. Please leave a message and I'll get back to you when democracy returns.
Post #47,022 by imric 7/26/02 9:53:02 AM Reply	A joke? I'll say... Everyone knows how good MS is at getting rid of email evidence.... :P Imric's Tips for Living Paranoia Is a Survival Trait Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised... Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

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