Post #353,599
1/26/12 8:29:32 AM
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Fight over full-fare rules takes bizarre turn
Think the fight over the new rule from the Department of Transportation (DOT) requiring airlines to include all taxes and fees in their posted fares is over?
Think again. Even though the new rule is set to go into effect Thursday, it seems the battle is as intense as ever. Consider:
On Tuesday, Spirit Airlines, which is currently contesting the rule in court, launched a website called KeepMyFaresLow.org with the headline: Warning: New government regulations require us to HIDE taxes in your fares.
That brought a swift denunciation from Kevin Mitchell, chairman of the Business Travel Coalition, an advocacy group for corporate travel buyers. ÂWith this ill-considered attack on DOT, Spirit Airlines has reached a new low and no doubt secured the poster-child crown for 2012 for misleading consumers.Â
Not so, countered Spirit CEO Ben Baldanza. ÂOur view is that fares should be transparent and clear and that you should know what youÂre paying your airline and what youÂre paying in taxes, he told msnbc.com.
And then raising the specter of even higher taxes in these tax-averse times, he suggested the move toward full-fare advertising was Âan insidious way to then raise taxes on consumers across the board.
http://overheadbin.m...akes-bizarre-turn
"Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from."
-- E.L. Doctorow
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Post #353,601
1/26/12 9:07:43 AM
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Not at all bizarre
And while I've very rarely agreed with Ben, on this one he is probably correct.
My thought is simple. The argument for the rule is all about "deceptive" advertising. But, I (and Ben) see this as step one to making sure all ancillary fees be treated under the classification of "base fare".
Once that happens, all those fees become subject to the excise tax.
I, as the consumer, have long since understood that the price I see advertised is NOT what I will end up paying after taxes. The same goes for the adverts in the local paper for buying a TV at Best Buy. They are not required to quote tax, nor disclose the cost of the optional protection plan, optional installation, etc.
All that said, this will make a portion of my job easier, as fewer folks will send me email complaining about how much they can "save" by buying their tickets from someone other than the company's designated agency...usually based on adverts they see in the paper or on the front page of an airline website...where we quote inclusive.
Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
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Post #353,612
1/26/12 12:38:10 PM
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I (the consumer) know MOST products may have some tax
They are based on what state (and sometimes what locality).
And we usually know what % to expect.
And we don't expect additional individual fees/taxes above that baseline.
I have NO IDEA what plane tickets cost until I've hit the final checkout, and sometime even then I'm not sure.
This is an "about damn time" rule.
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Post #353,613
1/26/12 12:43:53 PM
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That's fine, but...
I think the point is that the taxes should be shown separately, not wrapped up in the supposed base cost without any way of knowing what comes from where.
I would support a full disclosure at the point of selection as long as it's clearly shown what is fare, what is tax, what is an additional charge, and so on.
Regards,
-scott
Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
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Post #353,614
1/26/12 12:49:00 PM
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Agreed - show the breakdown
There is NOTHING stopping them from showing it according to the article, just that the Airline PR guy was blathering about it being buried. Unbury it and quit bitching.
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Post #353,619
1/26/12 1:48:38 PM
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Then you are buying on the wrong site
the airline sites all give est. of taxes and fees...and comparison sites such as orbitz list in in the first availability view.
You have ample opportunity to understand the full price before you buy a ticket.
Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
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Post #353,616
1/26/12 1:15:16 PM
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The bizarre part
is that Ben claims that this is a way for the government to raise taxes on airplane tickets without the consumer knowing about it.
"Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from."
-- E.L. Doctorow
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Post #353,618
1/26/12 1:46:47 PM
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Re: The bizarre part
What part of my post didn't you get.
Force all the ancillaries into "base fare"...with no breakout. Then, gov gets to excise tax all of it, instead of what is now listed as base fare.
Right now, consumers complain about the bag fee, for example, at $25. That bag fee becomes 26.88 after tax...because its now "base fare".
Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
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Post #353,620
1/26/12 1:51:18 PM
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The article didn't say anything about "base fare"
The two terms used were "posted fare" and "stated fare". In other words, they have to tell the customer what they'll end up paying. And as stated in the article, nothing would prevent the airlines from providing a breakdown. Just like my phone bill has been doing for years.
--
Drew
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Post #353,622
1/26/12 3:50:24 PM
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They do that already.
At least as part of the booking process, perhaps not in advertising..when they talked about "fares as low as xxx"...
However, the only outlier in that was taxes and fees...and the fact that they make an appreciable impact in the total number should highlight to you just how much tax you already pay (7.5% plus 3.70 per person per segment plus another 16.30 if you are leaving the US (8.20 if leaving CONUS)...so the fact that you bought a $29 ticket that ended up costing you $75 wasn't the airline's fault.
What Ben is saying is that if the gov hikes the excise tax to 10...it will now appear to all as an airline price increase, not a tax increase...because he well knows, as well as you..that you look at the big number and not the detail underneath.
Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
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Post #353,624
1/26/12 4:52:19 PM
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Think of a "normal" traveler
I don't fly every week. If I need to buy a ticket I have no idea when the price last changed. So if the price is $5 higher than it was last week, I don't even notice. All I know is that the TV commercial said $29 but I'm paying $75.
Besides that, prices vary depending on what site you book it through, time of day, how far out you're booking, and all the other factors airlines use to calculate variable prices. So like I said, "normal" travelers won't be upset about the price increase, because they won't know there was one.
People who travel a lot, or work in the industry, are the only ones who will notice when the price goes up. And they already understand why.
--
Drew
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Post #353,625
1/26/12 5:50:45 PM
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You've just stated his point
if the government wants to increase taxes in this "new" model..they can, and noone will notice.
from the Spirit site...
"If the government can hide taxes in your airfares, then they can carry out their hidden agenda and quietly increase their taxes. (Yes, such talks are already underway.)"
And you just stated, consumers won't notice...and even if they do notice the price to visit grandma next year went up 10 bucks, they will blame the airline...not the government.
The low cost airlines, like Spirit, Frontier, Southwest, etc...don't price like the big boys (yield mgt faring, leading to 100 different prices on one flight)...usually its last minute, 7 day, 14 day and "wanna get away" specials...thats why the big complaint comes from Ben at Spirit. No longer can they say Fares from $29..which was their fare...that came to 50 or so each way post taxes and security and pfc charges and all the other stuff uncle sam has loaded them down with.
Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
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Post #353,627
1/26/12 6:24:09 PM
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It's a stupid point, IMHO.
It's an "OMG TEH SEEKRIT TAXES!!!" argument that a teabagger would use.
Or someone who thinks that viral marketing is the way to run a business for the long term... http://en.wikipedia....al_advertisements
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." - C.H.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #353,629
1/26/12 6:54:21 PM
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Well then, for consistency
the government should assert that ALL ADVERTISEMENT, not simply airlines, should include all applicable taxes and fees and lets include shipping for all those online retailers.
After all, we're too stupid to know all by ourselves that the price isn't the price until we actually pay for it.
Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
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Post #353,646
1/26/12 10:53:46 PM
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A few thoughts
when I worked for a big computer consulting firm and traveled each week, I ignored the taxes...and only cared about the total cost. That's all the company cared about (and they didn't care much, they billed my traveling costs back to the customer)
Same with extra bag fees, getting in the front of the line fees and fees to sit in the big comfortable seats.
Some of that was annoying, because I couldn't justify those fees when traveling back to the customer...but flying twice a week and you get status and those fees are automagically waved anyway (and you upgrades to first class).
The only people these fees are going to affect are recreational travelers - and they're already price sensative anyway.
But I'm not sure why the government doesn't get to taxes these ancillary fees anyway. When I worked in international tax, governments who regularly tax anything and everything they felt like. (No joke, if you send packages from Mexico to Guat..they actually tax Mexico's tax.)
Shrug.
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Post #353,652
1/26/12 11:26:48 PM
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I don't have words for the idiocy of this stance.
If I go to the convenience store and pickup a soft drink ticketed as $2 and an ice-cream ticketed as $3.50, before I even get to the cash register, I expect to hand over $5.50 and can have the cash ready whilst in line. Same thing if I waltz into a local electronics good store and pick up a Blu-Ray player advertised for $180: if I can carry it out of there myself, it will be $180 I pay at the cash register. Installation costs, extended warranty are all optional and they cannot, by law AFAIK, be made mandatory.
This is what happens in Australia for the vast majority of sales. There are a few hold-outs - motor vehicles is one of the more annoying ones. Airfares is another, which is starting to get our local airlines into hot water with regulators, though that's mostly for disproportinately huge credit card surcharges. But for the most part, taxes are part of the basic, advertised item's price.
However, in my short time in the US, the practice was to add taxes onto the total. *This is highly anti-consumer.* It is clear there is a mindset at work here, clearly extending to airfares on websites. It should be illegal - with criminal charges and hefty fines - to add anything to the price the customer has agreed to pay *after* they have agreed to pay it.
There is nothing stopping that airline from showing all the various bits and pieces, including taxes, prior to totalling it all up. That they don't want to do this says a *lot* about their mindset.
Wade.
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Post #353,661
1/27/12 7:57:42 AM
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Why only the domestics are screaming...
The majors fly on Europe and are already capable of doing what is needed as that rule has been in effect over there for a number of years now.
Most of our travel is between the US and Belgium. I log in using an account keyed to my Belgian destination address to find the actual prices, they log in using a US based account so I can pay for them. (Yes, you can stuff up the system by booking tickets in Euro and paying for them with a $US credit card...)
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Post #353,662
1/27/12 8:13:32 AM
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It's a marketing thing.
For national TV ads it would be difficult to list the final price because the taxes vary (no sales tax in some areas to 10%+ in major cities, etc.). But that's not the issue here.
As I read the Wikipedia page on Spirit, a major part of their business model is to advertize an extremely low fare then nickle and dime customers for addons ($3 for a softdrink, $15+ to use the overhead bin, extra for a window or aisle seat, etc., etc., etc.). "Fly to LA for $29*!" where the asterisk hides $50-$200+ depending on taxes and their addon fees.
If they actually had to give the total cost of a ticket up-front, their whole business model would be kaput since their prices wouldn't appear to be so much lower than their competitors. Poor babies!
Of course, hotels should have to be upfront about total prices early in the process as well. Many towns and cities charge 10%+ taxes on hotel rooms because it's an "easy" way raise revenue without raising taxes on residents. Book a hotel room on-line and you usually don't see the full price until you commit to the reservation (and even then it's often "estimated").
FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #353,665
1/27/12 9:00:42 AM
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Somewhat
I've flown Spirit. And, as with Southwest, its pretty much like taking the bus. It gets you there.
I paid $29 plus tax, each way. Took my own soda on the plane...no big deal.
Travel is taxed HUGE amounts. This rule has nothing to do with the optional fees..which were all posted on each airlines website clear as day...its just that they used to give all that stuff away for free, and now that they don't, people are aggravated. Can't say I can argue with that...but I do know the logic behind pulling it apart. If I have a carry on and check in at a kiosk, why should i be charged for the infrastructure to transport bags to and from the plane to the terminal? Food Service? It was analyzed by one of the majors, who really did NOT want to change their policy...but after months of study, realized that travelers would not pay an incremental increase in fare for the extra value. They were leaving money on the table. Travelers would buy a ticket on their competition because it was $5 less...and then pay their competition $7 for the food.
Where I certainly AGREE with this ruling is with international fares and the airlines imposing, and not disclosing, a fuel surcharge...which in many cases was up to $400 on the ticket.
Hotels, average taxes are 17-20% of the final cost. Why should the hotel have to include that in their price? Its NOT their price. If the consumer ends up pissed off about it, they should be pissed of at the government, not the hotel.
Rental cars, taxes and surcharges imposed by government are 25-30% of the final cost. Again, why should Hertz have to include that in their price? Its NOT their price.
Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
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Post #353,678
1/27/12 1:00:48 PM
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You're not getting it
People aren't pissed off because it costs too much. They're pissed off because they thought they knew what it cost and it turned out to be much more.
--
Drew
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Post #353,682
1/27/12 1:40:00 PM
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I "get it" and completely disagree
the rule as it stands does not force bag fees and other ancillaries into the price, just taxes and surcharges and they were all already disclosed before you paid.
So you knew EXACTLY what it cost when you bought it...and were aggravated that it didn't match the $29 number in the newspaper. HOWEVER, the fact that it didn't match that was NOT the fault of the airline, now was it?
Same as the fact you don't pay $999.99 for that 60 inch TV at best buy is NOT the fault of best buy.
So, either force it across the board, or this is simply a case of picking on a convenient scapegoat (who loves the airlines..even though the biggest pita re: air travel is TSA (gov) and now price mismatch due to high taxes (again gov)) OR the guy at Spirit is right and they plan on hiking airline taxes and this would be a great way to hide it.
Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
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Post #353,738
1/28/12 11:45:37 AM
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What difference does it make?
If people will pick one airline over the other for a difference of $5, and if his airline is genuinely cheaper, they win. The only way this is a problem is if you're trying to disguise or misrepresent the final price.
If everyone is playing by the same rules, you compete on offering and price. As it is now, airlines are competing on how creatively they can disguise the final price.
--
Drew
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Post #353,710
1/27/12 11:08:38 PM
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So what's stopping them listing the taxes?
The price the consumer has to pay for the service is going to include some taxes. It is just that the retailer is collecting them. The consumer might care what they are, but if they want the product, they must pay the taxes.
Arguing that the taxes aren't part of the price is disingenous. As far as the person paying is concerned, they *are* part of the price.
Wade.
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Post #353,715
1/28/12 7:10:54 AM
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Perhaps,
But it is not required here of all retailers. Right now,MIT seems, just airlines .
Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
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Post #353,733
1/28/12 10:54:54 AM
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Airlines are special
They have this grey zone of being "deregulated".
They have a shitload of taxes and fees specific to the industry.
They are very confusing for most people.
Not you though.
A large chunk of your career is spent dealing with them.
You are a pretty unique viewpoint on this one, at least as compared to this group.
Please let me know if I have your viewpoint correct or if I'm way off base:
It seems you agree with GP ("perhaps", that's a luke warm agreement, but at least you are not disagreeing or seeming to look for an argument.) So then it becomes a matter of being annoyed that your (airlines) area of the world is being looked at for further regulation, and this seems unfair to you. If it is the correct thing to do, why don't we do it for ALL situations where there are taxes or fees associated with a price?
Did I miss anything?
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Post #353,742
1/28/12 12:40:11 PM
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Why?
1) For being deregulated, there certainly are alot of regulations ;-)
2) Don't know who you mean by GP.
3) Its a fairly simple point I'm making. When buying an airline ticket, from any agent or website, prior to this rule, I knew EXACTLY what I was paying before I paid. Following the "unbundling" of bag fees, I had Southwest telling me every 5 minutes on TV that they didn't charge them, but everyone else did...so I'd have to be pretty stupid not to know about those too.
The fact that it did not match the ad in the paper was almost entirely the fault of the government through very large amounts of taxes and fees. This made people (like you, judging from your earlier post, angry...and apparently angry at the airlines. And the trip was a problem, again, mad at the airlines (when likely the biggest pain was TSA security)...and the government takes this misplaced anger and uses it to pass a rule that everyone (but me) apparently loves so that noone will ever be the wiser about how much of that >really expensive airline ticket< goes to the government.
But the EXACT same situation happens with all of retail. The advertised price is NOT the final price (except maybe in Delaware)...but I don't see any cry for "full disclosure" there.
Nor do I see this rule actually >fixing< anything.
So I'm inclined to side with the gentleman from Spirit, who believes this is a way to make the taxes "disappear"...making it much easier for them to go up...and have the target of the blame continue to be misplaced.
Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
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Post #353,746
1/28/12 2:58:51 PM
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Listen closely ... I'll type slowly
It was analyzed by one of the majors, who really did NOT want to change their policy...but after months of study, realized that travelers would not pay an incremental increase in fare for the extra value. They were leaving money on the table. Travelers would buy a ticket on their competition because it was $5 less...and then pay their competition $7 for the food.
That. Is. The. Problem.
Taxes are only one of the many charges that are added on to the advertised price. And I doubt that they're the largest part of the markup when a $29 ticket ends up costing $75.
You work in the industry, so you know what all the charges are before you go to pay. Most people don't work in the industry, so we don't even know what to look for.
And just to pick on another point ... When talking about taxes you've repeated the well-worn strawman that liberals think money belongs to the government, so we should be grateful for whatever we're allowed to keep. But here you're talking about "money left on the table", as though that was the airline's money and you can't fault them for picking up what's rightfully theirs. --
Drew
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Post #353,747
1/28/12 3:27:46 PM
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Pay attention
the rule does NOTHING about the ancillary fees.
http://timesfreepres...draw-mixed-views/
Siebold said some airlines already are unbundling their fares, such as showing nonmandatory fees including those for luggage or seat preference. Those types of fees are not included in the new federal rules that took effect this week, but airlines are required to post them on their websites.
So, you see, the food example is NOT part of this rule. Just taxes and mandatory fees. (Nearly 100% government imposed) All that is required is that the airlines post those non mandatories on their website. Which they did prior to this rule.
The "money left on the table" was not tax money. It was passenger money..those that got their $5 bargain fare and blew it on a cheese tray during the flight. With that type of passenger buying behavior, giving free food made no sense for them. So now, they charge. Guess what. It added tens of millions to the bottom line. Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
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Post #353,750
1/28/12 4:06:49 PM
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The problem with this discusion may be...
the fact that you're used to buying tickets in a corporate setting while most people don't.
When I need to fly somewhere, it's usually for personal reasons.
I go to Travelocity (or wherever), enter the # of seats I want, the dates, then go searching. I get a list of flights and ticket prices. Prices vary by factors of 2 or 3 or more for no apparent reason, making one very suspicious that one is being ripped off. On Travelocity, it says "total per person" under the fare. If I select the outbound flight, I see in small print "additional baggage fees may apply". The page changes. I select the return flight. The page changes. I decline the invitation to search for a hotel. The page changes. I continue, declining the stupid travel insurance popup. The page changes. I notice the fine print that the fare isn't guaranteed until it is booked. At that point, I get invited to enter my payment information.
Down at the bottom I see a small link about taxes and fees. It says things like:
"The prices displayed for air fare on our site are inclusive of all taxes, governmental fees, and other mandatory charges. However, remember that you may incur other flight-related charges that are not payable to us and are not included in the quoted price, such as airline baggage fees and other charges for optional airline services." and information about variable charges for changing a reservation.
What are those fees and charges? Dunno. They don't tell me in some obvious way.
While this is fairly good disclosure, it's not until you are inputting your credit card information that you see the "Adult fare rules" linky with each flight that says things like:
"SURCHARGES
IF INFANT WITHOUT A SEAT PSGR UNDER 2. THERE IS NO FUEL SURCHARGE PER FARE COMPONENT FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 9.30 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 16FEB12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF 10 PERCENT OF THE FARE PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 17FEB12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 9.30 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 01MAR12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 9.30 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 02MAR12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 9.30 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 08MAR12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 27.91 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON FRI/SUN ON 09MAR12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 18.60 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 10MAR12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 27.91 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 11MAR12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 9.30 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 12MAR12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 9.30 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 15MAR12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 27.91 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 16MAR12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 18.60 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 17MAR12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 37.21 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 18MAR12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 9.30 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 19MAR12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 18.60 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 22MAR12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 27.91 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 23MAR12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 18.60 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 24MAR12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 27.91 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 25MAR12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 9.30 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 26MAR12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 18.60 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 29MAR12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 37.21 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 30MAR12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 18.60 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 31MAR12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 27.91 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 01APR12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 18.60 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 02APR12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 18.60 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 05APR12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 9.30 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 06APR12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF 20 PERCENT OF THE FARE PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 09APR12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 18.60 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 12APR12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 27.91 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 13APR12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 18.60 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 14APR12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 27.91 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 15APR12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 9.30 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 10MAY12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 9.30 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 11MAY12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 9.30 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 14MAY12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 9.30 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 17MAY12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 9.30 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 18MAY12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 9.30 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 20MAY12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL SURCHARGE IS ASSESSED ON A FARE COMPONENT BASIS. AND - MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER SURCHARGE OF USD 9.30 PER FARE COMPONENT WILL BE ADDED TO THE APPLICABLE FARE ON 21MAY12 FOR DEPARTURE OF EACH TRIP. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. THIS PEAK TRAVEL [...]"
which, if you're like me, you'll find impossible to read.
This is not transparent. If you don't like the terms or the additional charges that they do disclose, you have to start over picking a new flight.
It's not impossible for the airlines to make it clear to people who are choosing among different options what the cost of the flight is and what additional charges they may have to pay when they're choosing their flights. Demanding such disclosures isn't some "OMG! SEEKRIT TAXES!!!11" plot.
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #353,759
1/28/12 7:16:39 PM
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The continuing problem is
that this rule does not change what you are complaining about. You will still go to travelocity, and the fares on the different airlines will still vary by a factor of 2 to 3...now, though, they will have buried the taxes in those numbers.
Thats it.
That's all this does.
It does not change how airlines price.
Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
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Post #353,762
1/28/12 8:12:57 PM
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No, the problem is customers don't know the price.
When I want to fly to West Overshoe, I don't care that the price includes taxes or fees or surcharges or whatever.
What I care about is 1) how much money am I going to have to give the airline to get on the airplane with the service I believe I will be getting?, and 2) what is that price in relation to the competition? Am I being ripped off because I don't know what the actual final price is?
How much money is coming out of my bank account if I pick this ticket, and how does it compare?
It's that simple.
And yet airlines engage in deceptive practices - imagine that. http://www.dot.gov/a...2012/dot1612.html
[...]
For a period of time in the fall of last year, Finnair displayed three fare advertisements on its website that made no mention of additional taxes and fees that applied to these fares. Instead, once consumers clicked on the advertisements, they were taken to a page on the carrierÂs website where taxes and fees were displayed in the fine print at the bottom of the page. In one of the three advertisements, consumers could not see the fine print unless they happened to scroll to the bottom of the page.
FinnairÂs website violated DOT rules requiring any advertising that includes a price for air transportation to state the full price to be paid by the consumer, including all carrier-imposed surcharges. Until Jan. 26, 2012, government-imposed taxes and fees assessed on a per-passenger basis, such as passenger facility charges, could be stated separately from the advertised fare but had to be clearly disclosed in the advertisement so that passengers could easily determine the full price to be paid. Internet fare listings were permitted to disclose these separate taxes and fees through a prominent link next to the fare stating that government taxes and fees were extra, and the link had to take the viewer directly to information where the type and amount of taxes and fees were displayed.
Under DOTÂs recently adopted consumer rule that enhances protections for air travelers, carriers and ticket agents have been required to include all government taxes and fees in every advertised fare since Jan. 26. DOTÂs airline price advertising rules apply to both U.S. and foreign carriers as well as ticket agents.
Yeah, transparent pricing information that enables price comparison is the 4th Horseman coming to take away our freedoms, or something, if you accept Spirit's line.
Yes, there will still be additional fees above the base fare price. The DOT's rule isn't as good as it should be, but it's a heck of a lot better than what was there before.
FWIW.
I think I'm done.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #353,753
1/28/12 5:18:02 PM
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It's a broken solution to a broken problem.
I suspect airlines are much more willing than most others to game the pricing system.
In Au, we had a law change a number of years ago that re-allowed credit card surcharges at the till, instead of absorbing them. Many retailers promptly added them for Amex (~3%), but far fewer added them for Visa and Mastercard (~1%). It tends to be the ones operating visibly smaller margins. Airlines had a field day. Their credit card surcharge starts at 10% for most cards (they have deals with a specific provider's card for 0% on that, which is how they get away with). The lawmakers are trying to figure out a solid legal way to get them to stop doing that, especially as the number of complaints is steadily rising. They're beginning to consider repealing the surcharge law.
I originally mentioned the retail experience in the US because that represents a mindset: "add up the items, add the taxes" which I can see as part of the problem. Certainly the case of airlines wanting to "unbundle" the taxes strongly suggests this. It's a very American mindset to want to "stick it to the man" by trumpeting loudly to the customers who much the taxes actually are. Which becomes self-perpetuating.
There is no easy solution. Long term, moving away from adding taxes to the total at the end and listing them on the taxed items instead (that's how Australia's GST works), is the most consumer-friendly solution. But it will require a mindset shift for much of the US.
Wade.
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