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New You pretty much covered it
Except the attempt to bring large project under control with multiple layers of some type of project and or personnel management. That why I simply excluded team programming, it doesn't fit.

I agree partially on the art side. Yes, it may need to be specified in the physical detail to extreme levels (I'm thinking highly controlled water fountains). But what is the downside of getting a subtle difference from spec? If the water is a bit purple rather than blue because the lasers were slightly off, does a bank transaction fail somewhere? So the level of responsibility is simply not there. Programming isn't art in the end result of what it produces, it may be internally artful, but that doesn't mean artists are doing what I described, just that programmers might be doing some of what artists do, occasionally.

On the architect/engineer/construction side, no. You sit with one of those guys, you start dreaming, and they'll tell you your request went from $50,000 to $200,000 and take 4 months to build. If you go to someone else for the same, most likely your prices and skillsets will be equivalent.

These guys assemble. They do it creatively, sometimes, but they are assembling stuff that they've spent years training for. Programmers have to pick up a new language or environment in a few weeks (days in an emergency). How long would it take an architect trained in modern construction techniques to put a bathroom in your house?

And then long for the same guy to put it in an office building, but he has no commercial experience. Doesn't happen. Different training.

And then how long for the same guy to go to a historical village, and put a bathroom on a 200 year old church. Never. Again. Different training.

How many languages (or equivalent variations of environment) are you expected to be productive in when you are a new hire, ie: how long to train up, if they know you have no experience in this before an need a training (or review) period? And they have high expectations of you?

Different. Way different.

If someone shows up and says they can do it for $10,000 in 2 weeks, you KNOW they are full of shit.

You do that when programming, and your in house guy gives you the $200,000 estimate, and the new guy who has lots of experience says, nah, I can do it for $5,000, just give me the weekend to create a proof of concept to be sure.

You believe it is possible. Or at least you should, and you'd give them a chance to show you.

If that type of wild variation is possible (and reasonable), what is the client thinking? It's all f'ing magic, and they can have everything they want, for a minimal price, as long as they find the right guy.

New Re: You pretty much covered it
On the architect/engineer/construction side, no. You sit with one of those guys, you start dreaming, and they'll tell you your request went from $50,000 to $200,000 and take 4 months to build. If you go to someone else for the same, most likely your prices and skillsets will be equivalent.

That is because the business is more mature and more constrained by physical reality and law, and there are more distinct specialties. If there where legal mandates or physical constraints for how more programming had to be done down to the level of languages and hardware, bids across businesses would be far more consistent. And programming is getting divided into more narrow specialties, such as database admin, as it gets bigger and older.

These guys assemble. They do it creatively, sometimes, but they are assembling stuff that they've spent years training for. Programmers have to pick up a new language or environment in a few weeks (days in an emergency). How long would it take an architect trained in modern construction techniques to put a bathroom in your house?

Longer then a trained installation guy, but if he is any good he can do it faster then I could. That is true of programming also. It is more flexible then construction, but it isn't unlimited, and many programmer can't handle the level of flexibility they have. They can't shift gears that fast, and they do most of their programming by repeating patterns they have worked out, not as a handy way to build things but because that is all they know, they are lost when their patterns don't work.

You do that when programming, and your in house guy gives you the $200,000 estimate, and the new guy who has lots of experience says, nah, I can do it for $5,000, just give me the weekend to create a proof of concept to be sure.

You believe it is possible. Or at least you should, and you'd give them a chance to show you.

The experienced managers know better. They know that the hot shot might be able to slap something together that works for $5000, but it will be a random maze of wiring and plumbing with a layer of plaster over it. They might get it cheap up front, but when things need changed or repaired down the road they will pay.

The cynical managers go ahead anyway. Because they know they can take credit for getting it done for $5K and then take credit again when they fix it down the road.

It will still vary more, simply because programmers vary more in how good they are, a good construction worker might be 3 or 4 times as fast as a bad one, but a good programmer can be 10, 20 even 100 times as productive as a bad one. No two businesses are exactly the same, their are unique elements to each.

Jay
New Specialty divison doesn't work the same in programming
And I pointed out that it the power and freedom is dangerous, and it is just like Spiderman.

With great power comes create responsibility.

On the other hand, no, on the complex involved projects. Any possibility of team programming removed the absolute freedom (a pointed out), and the level of capability VS project type can allow for occasionally perfect black box projects, at least for me. So the question is not how is is constructed internally, the question is how long can the system run, being driven by external table for how long, without me or someone of my skillset level ever touching it.

And those projects historically cost in the ranges I described, along with those cost differentials.

My screed isn't about crappy programmers doing damage (which happens, bad programmers will always be there, it is just a matter of dealing with them and working around them). It's trying to come up with an analogy of what I do if I'm questioned by an exec, and why is it different from what they had before.

And do it without telling him I'm a f'ing genius.
     What profession invents their reality? - (crazy) - (31)
         artist, religious figure, politician -NT - (boxley) - (10)
             I thought about artist - (crazy) - (5)
                 Economists -NT - (drook) - (4)
                     If I got to invent my reality - (beepster)
                     So basically the answer is no one? -NT - (crazy) - (2)
                         Judges - (scoenye) - (1)
                             Judges win on straight power - (crazy)
             engineers -NT - (beepster) - (3)
                 Somewhat - (crazy) - (2)
                     Programmers have real world constraints - (malraux) - (1)
                         Sometimes - (crazy)
         BTW, I've been doing some gardening - (crazy)
         All creative work does to some degree - (jay) - (3)
             You pretty much covered it - (crazy) - (2)
                 Re: You pretty much covered it - (jay) - (1)
                     Specialty divison doesn't work the same in programming - (crazy)
         Non-programmer responds. - (Ashton) - (3)
             You've read far more into that than I was thinking - (crazy) - (2)
                 Fair enough.. even agree: - (Ashton) - (1)
                     100% - (crazy)
         How I became a tech writer - (mhuber) - (10)
             I know you didn't mean it but - (Silverlock) - (3)
                 Not sure I follow - (mhuber) - (2)
                     Check the word before "mental health facility". :-D -NT - (Another Scott) - (1)
                         DOH! - (mhuber)
             Yeah, it's a balance - (crazy) - (5)
                 That may be the most lucid explanation yet seen re. - (Ashton) - (4)
                     mine sweepers, howsabout aircraft carriers? -NT - (boxley)
                     oh, I meant it - (crazy) - (2)
                         ..Waiting for other shoe to drop - (Ashton) - (1)
                             I saw corp presentations a couple of days ago - (crazy)

* "The futexes are also cursed."
* "But they come in a choice of three flavours!"
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