All creative work does to some degree

Post #333,239 by jay 9/27/10 2:21:51 PM Reply	All creative work does to some degree All creative work involves conceiving of something and then seeing it implemented to some degree or another. Programming unique nature comes from the way that a single programmer often comes up with the concept, turns the concept into a practical design, and then implements that design all on their own. Probably the closest is the architect/engineer/construction side, if you where looking at a small project with one person doing all the work. Even their though the model isn't exactly the same. Many large programming projects would be rather like building a sky scrapper by getting 100 different engineers to design and build different apartments and then stacking them on top of each other, with plumbing and electrical strung in after wards. Some art also comes close. I'm thinking here of commissioned functional art, where the art still has to fit within certain constrained imposed by the buyer and by the physical constraints of it's eventual use. What I think you may be getting at here is that programmers get to design their own environment, abstractions and elements much more then other endeavors that are not pure art. An architect doesn't have dozens of fundamentally different systems for carrying electricity about the building to select among. And if he decided that existing systems are not right for what he is building, creating and installing a new one would be a major undertaking. Programmers do this sort of thing all the time. People have considered this line of thought before. Many have come to the conclusion it is actually one of the problems with programming. Many large programming projects are done rather like building a sky scrapper by getting 100 different engineers to design and build apartments and stacking them on top of each other. Plumbing and wiring is just custom fitted in where ever it will fit, and then everything covered in a healthy layer of plaster and paint. Jay
Post #333,242 by crazy 9/27/10 4:37:48 PM Reply	You pretty much covered it Except the attempt to bring large project under control with multiple layers of some type of project and or personnel management. That why I simply excluded team programming, it doesn't fit. I agree partially on the art side. Yes, it may need to be specified in the physical detail to extreme levels (I'm thinking highly controlled water fountains). But what is the downside of getting a subtle difference from spec? If the water is a bit purple rather than blue because the lasers were slightly off, does a bank transaction fail somewhere? So the level of responsibility is simply not there. Programming isn't art in the end result of what it produces, it may be internally artful, but that doesn't mean artists are doing what I described, just that programmers might be doing some of what artists do, occasionally. On the architect/engineer/construction side, no. You sit with one of those guys, you start dreaming, and they'll tell you your request went from $50,000 to $200,000 and take 4 months to build. If you go to someone else for the same, most likely your prices and skillsets will be equivalent. These guys assemble. They do it creatively, sometimes, but they are assembling stuff that they've spent years training for. Programmers have to pick up a new language or environment in a few weeks (days in an emergency). How long would it take an architect trained in modern construction techniques to put a bathroom in your house? And then long for the same guy to put it in an office building, but he has no commercial experience. Doesn't happen. Different training. And then how long for the same guy to go to a historical village, and put a bathroom on a 200 year old church. Never. Again. Different training. How many languages (or equivalent variations of environment) are you expected to be productive in when you are a new hire, ie: how long to train up, if they know you have no experience in this before an need a training (or review) period? And they have high expectations of you? Different. Way different. If someone shows up and says they can do it for $10,000 in 2 weeks, you KNOW they are full of shit. You do that when programming, and your in house guy gives you the $200,000 estimate, and the new guy who has lots of experience says, nah, I can do it for $5,000, just give me the weekend to create a proof of concept to be sure. You believe it is possible. Or at least you should, and you'd give them a chance to show you. If that type of wild variation is possible (and reasonable), what is the client thinking? It's all f'ing magic, and they can have everything they want, for a minimal price, as long as they find the right guy.
Post #333,258 by jay 9/27/10 9:55:13 PM Reply	Re: You pretty much covered it On the architect/engineer/construction side, no. You sit with one of those guys, you start dreaming, and they'll tell you your request went from $50,000 to $200,000 and take 4 months to build. If you go to someone else for the same, most likely your prices and skillsets will be equivalent. That is because the business is more mature and more constrained by physical reality and law, and there are more distinct specialties. If there where legal mandates or physical constraints for how more programming had to be done down to the level of languages and hardware, bids across businesses would be far more consistent. And programming is getting divided into more narrow specialties, such as database admin, as it gets bigger and older. These guys assemble. They do it creatively, sometimes, but they are assembling stuff that they've spent years training for. Programmers have to pick up a new language or environment in a few weeks (days in an emergency). How long would it take an architect trained in modern construction techniques to put a bathroom in your house? Longer then a trained installation guy, but if he is any good he can do it faster then I could. That is true of programming also. It is more flexible then construction, but it isn't unlimited, and many programmer can't handle the level of flexibility they have. They can't shift gears that fast, and they do most of their programming by repeating patterns they have worked out, not as a handy way to build things but because that is all they know, they are lost when their patterns don't work. You do that when programming, and your in house guy gives you the $200,000 estimate, and the new guy who has lots of experience says, nah, I can do it for $5,000, just give me the weekend to create a proof of concept to be sure. You believe it is possible. Or at least you should, and you'd give them a chance to show you. The experienced managers know better. They know that the hot shot might be able to slap something together that works for $5000, but it will be a random maze of wiring and plumbing with a layer of plaster over it. They might get it cheap up front, but when things need changed or repaired down the road they will pay. The cynical managers go ahead anyway. Because they know they can take credit for getting it done for $5K and then take credit again when they fix it down the road. It will still vary more, simply because programmers vary more in how good they are, a good construction worker might be 3 or 4 times as fast as a bad one, but a good programmer can be 10, 20 even 100 times as productive as a bad one. No two businesses are exactly the same, their are unique elements to each. Jay
Post #333,339 by crazy 9/29/10 5:29:20 AM Reply	Specialty divison doesn't work the same in programming And I pointed out that it the power and freedom is dangerous, and it is just like Spiderman. With great power comes create responsibility. On the other hand, no, on the complex involved projects. Any possibility of team programming removed the absolute freedom (a pointed out), and the level of capability VS project type can allow for occasionally perfect black box projects, at least for me. So the question is not how is is constructed internally, the question is how long can the system run, being driven by external table for how long, without me or someone of my skillset level ever touching it. And those projects historically cost in the ranges I described, along with those cost differentials. My screed isn't about crappy programmers doing damage (which happens, bad programmers will always be there, it is just a matter of dealing with them and working around them). It's trying to come up with an analogy of what I do if I'm questioned by an exec, and why is it different from what they had before. And do it without telling him I'm a f'ing genius.

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