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New Turkish / Iraq border on verge of open warfare
[link|http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071022/ap_on_re_mi_ea/turkey|Yahoo.com]
Dozens of Turkish military vehicles loaded with soldiers and heavy weapons rumbled toward the Iraq border on Monday after an ambush by guerrilla Kurds that left eight soldiers missing and killed 12.

Iraq's president said the rebels would announce a cease-fire later in the day. Turkey's government, which has rejected similar announcements in the past, said the country will pursue diplomacy before it sends troops across the rugged frontier.

Turkey's military said it lost contact with the eight soldiers after Sunday's clash and said 34 guerrillas had been killed so far in a counteroffensive. A pro-Kurdish news agency said the eight were captured \ufffd a claim that would make it the largest seizure since 1995, when guerrillas grabbed eight soldiers and took them to northern Iraq.

The situation is escalating quickly. Turkey will move in force across the border if something is not done soon. But the Iraqi government doesn't have the power, and the US is unlikely to act.

When Turkey does move across the border is when it gets dicey. If Turkey can keep it's focus tightly on the PKK they might be able to get away with some military forces without provoking a general war. But separating the PKK and the general Kurdish population is probably impossible, and the Turkish soldiers are probably not to concerned about it anyway.

Jay
New Remind me, why exactly should these Asiatic...
...barbarians be allowed entry into the European Union, again?

As far as I can see, Turkey is no more European than is, say, Pakistan.


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603|Jehovah]
New Few countries are as bad as Pakistan
Though the Turkish barely understand the concept of human rights, at least they're secular and aren't tribal nor misogynist. That's not saying much but that can't be said of Pakistan or Saudi Arabia.
Matthew Greet


Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
New {sigh} There really Isn't much to be said, currently
- for a discouragingly large plurality of the human infestation of this once jewel-like planetary oasis, is there?

(Speciecide used to seem the largest imagined horror, yet we could see that.. still, there would likely be replacements.)

With nukes massively everywhere now, Planeticide trumps, as #1 Imaginable Horror -- so that, just maybe, the evolution of 'opposed-thumbs' -??- shall have demonstrated the limits of Evolution itself: another self-terminating process? or just asymptotic to one.

New Re: {sigh} There really Isn't much to be said, currently
(I have noticed some pessimism has crept into some of your replies lately.)

Sometimes

Sometimes things don't go, after all
from bad to worse. Some years muscadel
faces down frost; green thrives; the crops don't fail,
sometimes a man aims high, and all goes well.

A people sometimes will step back from war;
elect an honest man; decide they care
enough, that they can't leave some stranger poor.
Some men become what they were born for.

Sometimes our best efforts do not go
amiss; sometimes we do as we mean to.
The sun will sometimes melt a field of sorrow
that seemed hard frozen: may it happen for you.

- Sheila Pugh

New Sure, I 'count on that effect', too -
The utterly Unlikely is often what we so rely upon, instead of sane action on behalf of recently-clear probabilities of our actions. (I don't worry pretty-little head over whether the species Makes It, rilly I Don't. I think the Cosmos is ever so much 'brighter' than its denizens + egos, I guess.)

But isn't it pathetic that, as homo-sap so regularly gallops off into another quagmire / very-like some recent one ... as it plays out to a seeming dire result, yet again: we. always. hope. for some miraculously better result than the quite most probable one? I just don't much like being associated with such a demonstrated pack of iggerant loosers, y'know?

There *are* nukes now. And the mondo superstitious are feathering their armageddon fantasies - via all the modrin tech tools n'toys, a prayin fer a First Class ticket to the sky: They have {within} embraced the lovely idea of denouement already. No need to try to break suicidal habits: it's Gawd's Will cha cha. Cha.

The Nukes + the fleeing to base superstition, here in Century MM - are a qualitative change in the species' capability of Fucking-up ... not just for a generation or two nor via the massacring of a few millions? \ufffd, ie the usual stuff --always arranged by bloviations and cigars around one Green Table or another. Nope: 'We' are regressing just as the threat is exponentially greater. IMO

As we seem incapable of learning even the most basic things about the patent abuses of power / how to recognize those who crave it for personal psychotic ends -- is it not appropriate to point out, now and again -- perhaps in terms more suited to the modern/average consumer of stuff:

Expecting Luck to Grant You Seventeen Straight Passes at the dice table:
may get you that burned out cinder (mentioned by Klaatu in, The Day the Earth Stood Still -- way back in 1951.)


My cat has superior 'moral's to the whole bloody species. And she's supposed to be a'predator'!
But she'd never incinerate her stalking grounds. >We Would.<




What other reason can it be, that that movie became a cult flic? --
And, two years before the beginning of the somnolence of the Ike Years.
(Few years back there was a bitchin web site with bios, etc. till they ran out of e-$$, apparently..)

-- unless it is ~ because Director Wise + Michael Rennie's alien character pegged the species so starkly, and just as McCarthy began to beat the fear drum rilly hard; fear that -??- just maybe them commies might win the propaganda war! over rugged induhvidual-like capitalism :-0 Etc.


It's been 56 years.. has anything changed?
New My cat, also.
Thank you very much for your reply, it gave me a great deal to ponder. 56 years later, not much has really changed. Politicians wash in and out of office like rotting kelp on the autumn tide. There are wars and rumors of wars.

Two things come to mind with respect to humankind, et al:

1. Bought this about 3-4 years ago, fascinating reading.
[link|http://www.amazon.com/Parasite-Rex-Bizarre-Dangerous-Creatures/dp/074320011X/ref=pd_bbs_2/103-8746655-9167835?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193242687&sr=8-2|http://www.amazon.co...1193242687&sr=8-2]

"Zimmer concludes that humankind itself is a new kind of parasite, one that preys on the entire Earth. "

2. George Carlin's "The Planet Is Fine"

[...] "Besides, there is nothing wrong with the planet. Nothing wrong with the planet. The planet is fine. The PEOPLE are fucked. "

It can be seen on YouTube or the transcript is here:
[link|http://www.habitablezone.com/flame/messages/420992.html|http://www.habitable...sages/420992.html]


So here's a toast to Klaatu, wherever you are, and thank you again, Ashton, for your careful and considered posting.
New Mrrrowr
A nicely provocative selection.. and thanks for kind words. I fear that Michael Rennie has left the stage, though his performance is immortalized - now on DVD. (My first comm'l tape purchase ever, was a Beta copy of TDTESS; it's still good fi.)

Carlin - His Napalm and Silly Putty wasn't up to previous, I thought though he's always irreverent enough for me. But this gem, only a year old - makes clear he hasn't lost focus: we Are (mostly) the arrogant pricks he adequately describes. Yep 200 years.. VS 4.5 Big Ones - and already we're aiming for radionuclides galore: ever in-the-name-of various Princes of Peace\ufffd.

It's also the 50th for Ginsburg's Howl - still as topical as the day its ban was attempted by the SF PeeDee. (Should have had my early one signed! I was living in SF then.)

Parasites.. pretty good metaphor, sadly - reminds of a similar book, "Life on Man" and those scary looking minidragons which inhabit our eyebrows. Another variant: the wag who noted that - seen from space, as you near the planet - "Man's works appear grey - man appears to be a planetary parasite." QED
Apparently "everything-IS-connected-to Everything else"! as Ashley Brilliant's cute postcard (on fridge) reminds.

Was pondering recently, how it was that (as in my early classes too) 'we' so abjectly infantilize our kids with BS pap about our perpetual National Goodness; I was trying to recall actual moments when - a piece of the pap-fabric was 'found out', rendered forever as another small tile in the mosaic of The Larger Lie? Two came immediately:

One.. a summer in Lewiston, Idaho, before starting in an Institute in fall: working in world's largest white pine mill. A dept. store salesman friend of the (school friend's) family with whom I was staying, mentioned both Veblen and Philip Wylie's *'momism' opus [[link|http://www.library.csi.cuny.edu/dept/history/lavender/momism.html|Generation of Vipers]] -- apparently plumbing the depths of my callowness and seeing the need for a prod or two. (Thanks! guy..)

* Written '42: Twenty printings by 1955. (Wonder if anyone still reads Wylie? Clearly they don't read Sinclair Lewis's take on home-grown fascism of the '30s.)

But well prior to that summer (and *cough* a solo accomplishment) I recall vividly the comic book story [Captain Marvel, most likely] which 'explained' with perfect brevity: what Waste is! -- all in an only seemingly-trite plot involving an alien "stealing street signs because his planet was running out of iron.."

Nay, twas crystalline in its clarity, though only years later was I able to see an Example, then immediately recall the story. (Physics later on, merely gave the tools to Measure the sorts of waste: energy or objects, or maybe if one includes information theory? the 'waste' of bloviating.) Al punte, beyond any of the required texts later.

I do not comprehend how it is that that there are people 50+ today.. who never got past the sensibilities of my pre-cog Lewiston summer. Something in US water which puts a %large of neurons in stasis? There's good news amidst the daily dross, though -- it seems to be always the case that, <1% of the population only ever 'Does' anything. Now if one ever finds self in the majority, well - -



Hard to bear that we have before us: One Whole Year of the asinine and crass Murican-politico Lying / routine character assassination - before any Action is even possible. Ah, to be on Corfu for that year! With NO wireless netstuff. Mail once a month?


Ashton

New Youth
>>> ...apparently plumbing the depths of my callowness and seeing the need for a prod or two.

Ah, callow youth. I, too was pointed to that very tome (..Vipers) while a sophomore in high school. This led to a reading binge which included Vance Packard (Hidden Persuaders), Lionel Tiger (Imperial Animal), Ashley Montegue (Natual Superiority of Women), Konrad Lorenz (On Aggression) and many, many others. Hasn't stopped now, 4-5 decades later. (Of course, my parents helped - led me to the Chicago Public Library and said "this door is not locked".)

For better or worse, school is the place to set youth on their future path. Too bad so many districts suffer from low budgets and other woes.

Thanks for the memory jog!
Expand Edited by dmcarls Oct. 25, 2007, 09:45:42 AM EDT
New Thanks for the reading list
I consider myself well-read, but now find I have some catching-up to do.

Onward to the library!
Smile,
Amy
New For various values of Turkey...
Secular holds for now, but non-tribal and non-misogynist only hold in the European parts. For the rest...

[link|http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/dilberk.htm|http://www.library.c...deast/dilberk.htm]

The above is just a quick grab off Google, but this problem is not getting any better. It is actually spreading through Europe now as immigrant families are forging more connections back to Turkey leading to an increased import of "traditional values".
New Damn! My Turkish geography isn't as good as I thought.
I guess Ataturk wasn't as revolutionary as I thought.
Matthew Greet


Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
New it isnt much better in Sicillian villages
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New Iraq is joining the euro union?
since they are attacking a sovreign nation turkey who has been much nicer about it than serbia for example.
got a fez in yer eye that thinks turkey doesnt belong? It was okay back when the austrians ran europe so why not now?
thanx,
bill
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New What the ...
...FUCK are you gibbering about??? If I could make heads or tails of that, I might be able to actually rebut it.

As it is, I can only note that it seems to reflect nothing so much as your usual deep confusion about English grammar and European history and geography.

Oh, WTF, even if I try as best I can: The first bit, about Iraq and Serbia, makes no sense at all that I can discern. The tiniest little bit in the middle that I'm actually fairly sure what it means: Yes, I think Turkey doesnt belong in the EU, but not because of their hats. The last bit, about "when the austrians ran europe" -- is this supposed to evoke some kind of historic parallel to the days of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, when the Osman Empire held sway over large parts of Eastern Europe?

If that's what you're trying to say, here's a newsflash from the seventeenth to nineteenth centuries: We threw off their tyrannical yoke! Greece, Albania, Rumania and Bulgaria, and all the little states and statelets that used to be Yugoslavia, are no longer ruled with an iron fist by the Pascha in Constantinople! WTF does that have to do with anything -- are you saying they *should be*, or what?!?

So, how many Senators does England -- sorry, Britain -- have in Washington D.C? If none, why not? That seems to be at least as logical and sensible as whatever it is you are trying to say: After all, in the days of the Austran Empire, Britain ruled large parts of what is now the USA. Brilliant solution to the Middle East problem, though: Israelis and Palestinians can settle their squabbles, as they won't have control of the region to contend for any more -- that'll have to go to Italy, obviously, since the Romans once held sway all around the Mediterranean.

Both the above make *at least* as much sense as your gibbering about "when the austrians ran europe".

If you want a more exact reply to the rest of your little screed, please translate it into coherent English. (NB: That's two translations.)


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603|Jehovah]
New okies
"since they are attacking a sovreign nation turkey who has been much nicer about it than serbia for example." Serbia in the kosovo issue was much faster getting troops to go after Albanians poring into kosovo than the turks. Turkey is showing a lot of patience for people who have been targets of terrorists.

got a fez in yer eye that thinks turkey doesnt belong?
I have seen this before in your posts, a total antipathy towards Turkey

It was okay back when the austrians ran europe so why not now?
Byzantium was a european bastion after rome fell. A lot of Norse and Rus moved and traded there. Their decendants live on. There wasnt so much a population movement as much as a religious war that the muslims won. Do a genetic test on a macedonian and a western turk, not much difference genetically and from what I have seen, culturally not a lot different.

Turkey is currently a secular society with western aspirations, they should be encouraged to trade west and partner against the numbnuts further east.

HTH
Bill

Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New You know, that's not nearly as silly as it sounds.
Turkey is currently a secular society with western aspirations, they should be encouraged to trade west and partner against the numbnuts further east.


Whilst Turkey could be regarded as relatively secular in the Muslim world, in the secular world, it is still a lot more Muslim than the US is Christian. But having said that, their Western aspirations are helping them brake any push to become more Muslim.

Wade.


Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
 
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please



-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne.

· my ·
· [link|http://staticsan.livejournal.com/|blog] ·
· [link|http://yceran.org/|website] ·

New Byzantium was not Turkey.
Byzantium was Rome; Turkey is not. Your "historical parallel" makes absolutely no fucking sense.

No, I don't have particularly much against Turkey, as such -- they're perfectly nice neighbours of Europe, nowadays. *Neighbours*, because Turkey isn't situated *in* Europe; it's the very fucking original definition of Asia. And that's why it doesn't belong in the European Union, which is a union of *European* countries. (If you ponder the name of the union real hard, maybe that'll become a bit more obvious: It's a *European* union, you see?)

And WHAT, exactly was "okay" in that time "when the austrians ran europe"?!? Large parts of Europe were under occupation by a foreign (non-European) power, the Osman Empire. Who the heck was "okay" with that??? The Osmans? Yeah, perhaps they were -- but as you'll notice, all the peoples in the occupied territories got rid of the Osmans as soon as they could. Seems no *Europeans* thought it was all that "okay".

My parallells -- DC Senators for Britain; Italy to run the Middle East -- are the exact continuation of your thesis that just becaused a nation centuries ago occupied what was before, and is now, someone else's territory, that long-ago ocuupier now belongs in that territory.

To most normal people that is *not* right. Can you explain why you think it is?


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603|Jehovah]
New 1918 was centuries ago? one maybe
asia minor starts on the east bank of the Bosphorus, lots of turkey west of that in southern europe. The same genetic mix lives there now as when Byzantium was roman with most of the same habits except for the religion.
thanx,
bill
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New "Lots"? Consult a freaking map, you nitwit - it's ONE CITY!
New thrace is not a city, its a province
[link|http://graphicmaps.com/webimage/countrys/asia/tr.htm|http://graphicmaps.c...ntrys/asia/tr.htm]
follow the pointy line that sez
Turkey
Europe
(Thrace)
on the eastern end of the map it sez
Turkey
Asia
(Anatolia)

HTH
Bill
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New Single city and a wee bit of surrounding countryside, sheesh
YOU, a stickler for detail, all of a sudden? Somehow, this doesn't feel quite real... Anyway: That still doesn't make Turkey a European country, any more than Ceuta and Melilla make Spain an African one.

Let's turn this around -- in stead of me having to defend the European Union against this unwanted incursion all the time, let's have you Yanks[*] defend *why you want* Turkey in the EU.

A) What's the frigging *reason* for having it there?, and

B) What fucking business is that of yours?!? Do *we* get to declare which countries shall become States in *your* Union, next? I propose India, I'm sure they would like that. (With all her provinces, that would be about twenty or thirty new States, I suppose.)




[*]: And yes, that sadly seems to include you, BOx.


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603|Jehovah]
New like we dont have trouble keeping them out now
but clamorings for georgia and armenia being part of europe and they are east of turkey seems to be the rage. Let them in, kick them in the gutter, I dont care but getting the slavs and tartars under yer wings while ignoring turkey seems to be short sighted.
thanx,
bill
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New That would be the Neighborhood policy
Not a path to membership but a diplomatic attempt to put a lid on the cesspool. As it is, organized crime controls trade and the goods are people. This has lead to import of the regional conflicts into the EU member states to the point that the rivaling gangs are rolling around fighting in the streets. The dead bodies are starting to pile up and their competition for territory is taking its toll on the natives.

As all kinds of fortresses and fences are/will be useless and the situation is going to soak up wads of money to rectify anyway, spending it over there in an effort to stabilize the situation seems to be the chosen route.
New Disregard, fumble-fingered duplicate
Expand Edited by CRConrad Oct. 23, 2007, 04:05:34 PM EDT
     Turkish / Iraq border on verge of open warfare - (JayMehaffey) - (24)
         Remind me, why exactly should these Asiatic... - (CRConrad) - (23)
             Few countries are as bad as Pakistan - (warmachine) - (10)
                 {sigh} There really Isn't much to be said, currently - (Ashton) - (6)
                     Re: {sigh} There really Isn't much to be said, currently - (dmcarls) - (5)
                         Sure, I 'count on that effect', too - - (Ashton) - (4)
                             My cat, also. - (dmcarls) - (3)
                                 Mrrrowr - (Ashton) - (2)
                                     Youth - (dmcarls) - (1)
                                         Thanks for the reading list - (imqwerky)
                 For various values of Turkey... - (scoenye) - (2)
                     Damn! My Turkish geography isn't as good as I thought. - (warmachine)
                     it isnt much better in Sicillian villages -NT - (boxley)
             Iraq is joining the euro union? - (boxley) - (11)
                 What the ... - (CRConrad) - (9)
                     okies - (boxley) - (8)
                         You know, that's not nearly as silly as it sounds. - (static)
                         Byzantium was not Turkey. - (CRConrad) - (6)
                             1918 was centuries ago? one maybe - (boxley) - (5)
                                 "Lots"? Consult a freaking map, you nitwit - it's ONE CITY! -NT - (CRConrad) - (4)
                                     thrace is not a city, its a province - (boxley) - (3)
                                         Single city and a wee bit of surrounding countryside, sheesh - (CRConrad) - (2)
                                             like we dont have trouble keeping them out now - (boxley) - (1)
                                                 That would be the Neighborhood policy - (scoenye)
                 Disregard, fumble-fingered duplicate -NT - (CRConrad)

There are 178 parent languages on our planet, with over 1000 dialects. It's amazing we communicate at all.
143 ms