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New I don't ask you to accept the source
I ask you to run the numbers and address the concerns.

But you aren't going to because you don't care about this issue, you don't believe in the matter at hand, you just feel it is worthwhile to play Devil's advocate in any issues concerning the AMA.

And you certainly are right on the transfat issue.

But whether or not a profit motivated guild/monopoly was right on the transfat issue has nothing to do with this one.

"To be accepted homeopathy must explain how it works in terms acceptable to us."

Where's that quote from?

Here's a decent quote that pretty much encompasses all you need to know about this scam.


Oscillococcinum, a 200C product "for the relief of colds and flu-like symptoms," involves "dilutions" that are even more far-fetched. Its "active ingredient" is prepared by incubating small amounts of a freshly killed duck's liver and heart for 40 days. The resultant solution is then filtered, freeze-dried, rehydrated, repeatedly diluted, and impregnated into sugar granules. If a single molecule of the duck's heart or liver were to survive the dilution, its concentration would be 1 in 100200. This huge number, which has 400 zeroes, is vastly greater than the estimated number of molecules in the universe (about one googol, which is a 1 followed by 100 zeroes). In its February 17, 1997, issue, U.S. News & World Report noted that only one duck per year is needed to manufacture the product, which had total sales of $20 million in 1996. The magazine dubbed that unlucky bird "the $20-million duck."

Actually, the laws of chemistry state that there is a limit to the dilution that can be made without losing the original substance altogether. This limit, which is related to Avogadro's number, corresponds to homeopathic potencies of 12C or 24X (1 part in 1024). Hahnemann himself realized that there is virtually no chance that even one molecule of original substance would remain after extreme dilutions. But he believed that the vigorous shaking or pulverizing with each step of dilution leaves behind a "spirit-like" essence\ufffd"no longer perceptible to the senses"\ufffdwhich cures by reviving the body's "vital force." Modern proponents assert that even when the last molecule is gone, a "memory" of the substance is retained. This notion is unsubstantiated. Moreover, if it were true, every substance encountered by a molecule of water might imprint an "essence" that could exert powerful (and unpredictable) medicinal effects when ingested by a person.




And don't bother telling me it's the AMA's fault it'll never be tested. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. It fails the smell test, no point in shoving some down your throat as well.
New oes this work in acceptable form?
[link|http://www.jleukbio.org/cgi/content/full/68/4/503|http://www.jleukbio....ent/full/68/4/503]
since echinacea is sold as a homeopathic product and wasnt invented by smith kline et al.
It might help you to know that eli lilly was rapidly investigating a lot of these substances for patentable use.
thanx,
bill
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New The answer is no.
[link|http://www.webmd.com/content/article/109/109218.htm|Web MD]:
The herbal remedy echinacea may not live up to its reputation for fighting colds.

Echinacea was tested against the common cold virus in healthy college students. Apparently, the herbal remedy flunked. It didn't seem to prevent or treat colds.

The report appears in The New England Journal of Medicine. The researchers included Ronald Turner, MD, of the University of Virginia's medical school.
Alex

Nobody has a more sacred obligation to obey the law than those who make the law. -- Sophocles (496? - 406 BCE)
New Echinacea found effective after all . . .
[link|http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-echinacea25jun25,1,4172844,print.story?ctrack=2&cset=true|Los Angeles Times]
The herbal remedy echinacea can prevent colds and speed recovery from runny noses, coughs and other symptoms, according to a study published Sunday [in the journal Lancet Infectious Diseases]that could renew interest in the discredited product.

The analysis of 1,600 patients pooled from 14 previously published studies found that echinacea reduced the chances of catching a cold by 58% and shaved 1.4 days off the duration of a cold, researchers said.
Of course those who claimed no effect are claiming "bad science" and these guys are "right back at ya". I'm sure that as in 99.83% of medical and nutritional disputes both sides are right on at least that one point.

[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New "Where is that quote from?" you ask . . .
. . and then quote a perfect example of it. If that's the brand of cool-aid you've been drinking, that arguement will seem flawless.

On the other hand, scientists working with water memory [link|http://www.raydionics.com/water.html|Example], [link|http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/newtech2.html|Example] are finding things may be a little more complex.

The AMA has never gone to Congress claiming outright that homeopathy doesn't work, but always with this same argument, "They can't explain why it would work in 'scientific' terms" - in other words, in the terms the AMA has defined. Here is a further exposition on this approach [link|http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/10755530050120637|Letters].
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
     get headaches? - (boxley) - (33)
         Here's one - - (Ashton) - (5)
             well shoving the blood flow to new areas usually works - (boxley) - (2)
                 ^RTFM^ -NT - (Ashton) - (1)
                     duh oh! -NT - (boxley)
             Another one: - (admin)
             Wife's comment: - (admin)
         Their commercials give me a headache! -NT - (a6l6e6x)
         So it's water, right? -NT - (pwhysall) - (25)
             ? no. 99.9%wax n other stuff -NT - (boxley) - (24)
                 99.9999% wax (and other meaningless stuff) - (crazy) - (23)
                     works in the case of someone alergic to most - (boxley) - (22)
                         Actually, no - (crazy) - (21)
                             Im glad the PC editors on wikipedia have nailed Homeopathy - (boxley) - (3)
                                 sigh (for both anti-WP responses) - (crazy) - (1)
                                     As a jumping off point for non-controversial subjects . . . - (Andrew Grygus)
                                 Ah, otheopaths vs allopaths - (crazy)
                             Citing Wikipedia on anything the least bit controversial . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (16)
                                 Impossible to know? - (crazy) - (15)
                                     Ah! an unbiased source :) - (Andrew Grygus) - (14)
                                         I don't ask you to accept the source - (crazy) - (4)
                                             oes this work in acceptable form? - (boxley) - (2)
                                                 The answer is no. - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
                                                     Echinacea found effective after all . . . - (Andrew Grygus)
                                             "Where is that quote from?" you ask . . . - (Andrew Grygus)
                                         No homeopathic remedy has ever passed a double-blind test. - (pwhysall) - (8)
                                             Not difficult to find articles that differ with you on that. - (Andrew Grygus)
                                             http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=28 -NT - (boxley)
                                             although when it comes to picking doctors - (boxley)
                                             Re: No homeopathic remedy has ever passed a double-blind tes - (Ashton) - (4)
                                                 oooh, medicine chest comparisons - (boxley) - (3)
                                                     Minimal - (Andrew Grygus) - (2)
                                                         W.T.F. ? - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                             Re: W.T.F. ? - (Andrew Grygus)

And then they ran out of time.
72 ms