One more thing. Now, I'm mad.

Post #28,669 by mmoffitt 2/16/02 4:12:53 PM Reply	One more thing. Now, I'm mad. >> But if kids don't learn to think for themselves at home, ... WTF are you talking about? You think I suggested that she not say the pledge? If you can read with the comprehensive ability of a 2 year-old (I know, that may be a stretch for you) you will see that I did NOT enter the fray. I could have raised Holy Hell with the teacher, but I didn't. My daughter CONCLUDED FOR HERSELF that she didn't want to say the pledge. I stayed on the periphery - BY DESIGN. She DID make up her own mind AND THAT IS WHAT I AM PROUD OF! Update: last Friday her schoolmates noticed that she wasn't saying the pledge. They asked her why, she reiterated her (NOTE MARLOWE: HER) position. They knocked her down on the playground and kicked her, in full view of a teacher who did nothing to stop it. Now, I am going to the principal, and perhaps the Superintendent, about that on Monday. Or, maybe I shouldn't? I don't want to "brainwash" her. Follow-up PRIDE: I asked her what she would do on Monday. She said, "I am not going to say the pledge. They can't beat me into something I don't believe in." My daughter is better informed and a much better American than you or I will ever be. Try that, Mikem
Post #28,678 by boxley 2/16/02 7:02:01 PM Reply	do teach her to defend herself a can of juice in one pocket and a sock in the other works wonders. thanx, bill Mike Doogan "Then there's figure skating and ice dancing and snowboarding. The winners are all chosen by judges. That's not sports. That's politics. And curling? If curling is a sport, pork rinds are a health food."
Post #28,687 by Ashton 2/16/02 8:30:04 PM Reply	As should anyone be.. I accept at face value your daughter's report - they knocked her down on the playground and kicked her, in full view of a teacher who did nothing to stop it. My personal view of such an event is - that this single act (of omission) on Any teacher's part, should be grounds for dismissal, once proven. It is an act which gives credence to the mob, to the bullying of those who disagree.. to the mindset of Lord of the Flies ignorant children who are acting from rote and without any comprehension. THIS is what that 'teacher' taught these empty young minds, that day. I hope you will be able to force (school-wide? depending upon the nature of your local PTA) a detailed confrontation of what exactly was Wrong, and why it must not recur. Were it my child and were the school milieu such that they would Not face these issues - I'd look for a cub reporter and any similar means of getting this story into the public consciousness. You may not like some of what crawls out from the woodwork, but you will at least know more about your 'community' - and you will have faced an issue particularly germane to current events. The entire small 'play' is indeed a Parable, deserving of frequent reenactment. Lest we forget.. WTF it is, we think is worth defending about our 'community', state, nation (?) Or not worth defending. Good luck, Ashton
Post #28,692 by Brandioch 2/16/02 8:57:22 PM Reply	She's a better person than they are. Congratulations. And that teacher should never "teach" again.
Post #28,698 by boxley 2/16/02 9:40:49 PM Reply	well mike is in CA where a teacher would lose the job if she separated them "during" the incident, teachers in many places go in actual fear of their students and the school district. Whatever the case, it needs to be pushed to the school board. thanx, bill Mike Doogan "Then there's figure skating and ice dancing and snowboarding. The winners are all chosen by judges. That's not sports. That's politics. And curling? If curling is a sport, pork rinds are a health food."
Post #28,708 by Silverlock 2/17/02 12:48:19 AM Reply	You and your daughter have my sincere admiration Your daughter for her ability to take a stand against odds. You for raising her and giving her that ability. My hat is off to you sir. And tell your daughter I'm proud of her (tho I doubt it will make a difference to her). With this much manure around, there must be a pony somewhere.
Post #28,730 by marlowe 2/17/02 11:29:39 AM Reply	Well, now you've framed me up nicely. If I challenge you, I look like a big heartless meany. If I don't challenge you, your nonsense gains credibility by association with, um, conviction and courage and stuff. Hell with it. I can't win without a level playing field, and you're not gonna allow me a level playing field. So I'll just go out fighting. Here are my points: 1) The vicious stupidity of other kids does not in any way make your daughter, or you, in the right regarding the original question. Truth just doesn't work that way. There was a time when young Nazi sympathisers got beat up on the playgrounds of America. 2) Conviction is not the same as bloody-mindedness. The difference is: one is well thought out, and the other isn't. But I don't expect you to appreciate such a fine distinction. There. Now I look like a big heartless meany. Now you can beat me up. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
Post #28,732 by marlowe 2/17/02 11:59:38 AM Reply	My heart goes out this this child [link\|http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/0006275E-E72C-1BA8-805C80C328EC02DC.girl\|She didn't live long enough to get beat up on the playground.] Juliana McCourt wasn't courageous, or pigheaded, or even brainwashed. She was simply incinerated. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
Post #28,738 by Brandioch 2/17/02 1:28:52 PM Reply	Your mind must be an interesting place to inhabit. So, a victim of a terrorist attack (religious fundamentalism) provides what support for your defense of fascist-like behaviour in the US? Or are you claiming that Juliana McCourt didn't want to be coerced into saying TPoA either? Or are you claiming that Juliana McCourt liked saying TPoA? Or are you claiming that if everyone said TPoA that Juliana McCourt would still be alive? Allow me my view on the situation. Certain people are taught a certain belief and are willing to harm others who don't believe as they do. Now, whether those certain people are terrorists or school-mates.......... But that's okay in your mind 'cause our cause is right and just and meet.
Post #28,944 by marlowe 2/19/02 2:02:53 PM Reply	Just trying to put things in perspective. Knowing how much it drives people like you up the wall to see things put in perspective. Moffitt's kid is not a hero. And neither are the terrorists. And neither are you. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
Post #28,947 by Brandioch 2/19/02 2:17:46 PM Reply	Really? Moffitt's kid is not a hero. A child willing to get beaten at school while a teacher looks on is not a hero? Maybe. Depending upon how you define "hero". She's certainly a lot braver than most of the people I've met. Knowing how much it drives people like you up the wall to see things put in perspective. And what perspective is that? A child was killed by someone who couldn't stand opposing thought. A child was beaten by someone who couldn't stand opposing thought. "Perspective"? The child who was beaten was beaten by US CITIZENS! Oh, is the "perspective" you're aiming for the fact that we can treat people with different viewpoints just as badly as the terrorists did? Or is it that you don't HAVE a point? You start waving pictures of dead children as some kind of holy symbol against the forces of evil (liberals) hoping that they will flee in terror? Doesn't look like that happened, does it? So, again, I'm asking you what your point was with your post of a dead girl's picture. Don't give me generalities like "perspective". Give me specifics. And Mike's daughter has more guts and character than you've displayed so far. She's willing to get beaten for her beliefs and you can't even articulate your's in a web forum. She's being beaten. The worst you'd get is embarrased. No wonder you don't think she's a hero.
Post #28,745 by Ashton 2/17/02 2:58:31 PM Reply	Nahh.. you built the box, and keep reinforcing the walls You're "for the mob" - when the mob has ideas you deem to be ~same Revealed Truth as You have. Of course when the mob has different views: why then.. ignore ignorant mob behavior. How very convenient and.. flexible of you. (You don't even get.. that this isn't even about! the PoA.. per se). One Ernst Cantorowicz at UC, in the early '50s pointed out, in a nicely reasoned tract* which went around - and months later, caused the UC Regents to rescind Their 'Loyalty Oath': * entitled, The Fundamental Issue, it pointed out that the entire oath hysteria was about - wait for it - YAN attack on tenure!. Yup a Regent - cast in same bullet-mold as you - was convinced that Profs were no different from janitors: hire & fire 'em at will, them uppity intellekshuls. (That's another thread. One idiocy at a time.) [link\|http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/uchistory/archives_exhibits/loyaltyoath/docs_images.html\|Loyalty Oath history] C. pointed out that any coerced oath (sign this or starve / become unemployable / get beat up by class etc.) is invalid on the face of it. It's even inane on the practical side: why those awful, unPrincipled Commyunist Wackos\ufffd will sign Anything! in order to subvert, undermine, sabotage our US Bastion of Personal Freedom\ufffd. Oh the involute irony of it all... Carry on with further box reinforcements - eventually you'll nail shut the oxygen vent too, Ashton PS - is this simple enough English for ya? I can make it reel simple, as fits your preference - by numbering the sequence from 'oath' ---> 'oaf'. Woof. [link\|http://www.dansdata.com/psycho.htm\|How to spot a psychopath (or even just a trail)]
Post #28,794 by boxley 2/18/02 9:40:33 AM Reply	Marlowe, just change yer username to Ginger Mike Doogan "Then there's figure skating and ice dancing and snowboarding. The winners are all chosen by judges. That's not sports. That's politics. And curling? If curling is a sport, pork rinds are a health food."
Post #28,961 by mmoffitt 2/19/02 3:32:29 PM Reply	Good News. And Thank You All... for the kind thoughts, encouragement, etc. I met with the my daughter's teacher, the teacher who allegedly stood by and the principal. The teacher who didn't do anything said she didn't see it, that there were many children she was charged with watching and she apologized saying she certainly would have intervened. She seemed honest and genuinely upset that this happened. I wasn't there, it's entirely possible that it was over before she glanced my daughter's way. My daughter's teacher was upset with the two students leading the antagonism (my daughter told me later that he took them aside as they headed out for recess and must have admonished them because they both apologized to my daughter). Then the teacher did something I really liked. He changed his history lesson for the day and they studied the evolution of the PoA, including Ike's adding of "Under God" AND the court cases involved (WV Board of Education vs. Barnette - or Barrette, I can't remember, in 1942). Then a classroom discussion was held where the students listed possible reasons for and against making the pledge! The kids didn't kick her, I understand now. But they did knock her down and stomp her hand with their feet (she has bruises to show for it). At any rate, I'm pleased with the way the teacher handled the situation. And interestingly, once the discussion turned to "why wouldn't some one want to say the pledge?" my daughter said, "Well, I think we're overdoing this a little. I mean, if we keep this up, I think we're heading in a bad way." Because of her statements and several others raised by other children, several other students have decided not to say the pledge. No, marlowe, I'm not really happy about that except indirectly. I am VERY happy that a classroom of 11 year-olds is actually thinking about what their country is doing and that they are FREE to decide for themselves whether or not it is appropriate. Thanks again guys and sorry if I went overboard on the ranting, Mikem
Post #28,973 by Brandioch 2/19/02 5:27:13 PM Reply	Congrats! And I like the teacher doing the lesson on the origins of TPoA.
Post #28,977 by Ashton 2/19/02 5:39:56 PM Reply	Relieved to hear.. Actually, "not having seen the foray" is the explanation I'd have hoped for - I find it still difficult to imagine any teacher in 2002: actually condoning that stimulus/response. (Or any teacher who has not read Golding's Lord of the Flies, for that matter) Finally - it's a positive result when your daughter didn't have to next confront an Us/Them dichotomy for the rest of her term - because nobody wanted to discuss the Issue. Perhaps this little contretemps and its result, of better discussion - shall reinforce your daughter's (already advanced) sense of the appropriateness of speaking up (or 'not-speaking' that which you don't accept, in present case). Cheers, Ashton Hey! maybe her class can invite Marlowe to give the counter-case! - for unconditional Jingoism every time. I'd bet they'd see right through the sophistry and go for the jugular. Wouldn't it be fun to see that POV dismantled by a bunch of 11-year olds?
Post #29,008 by Silverlock 2/19/02 11:13:31 PM Reply	Ashton, stop it! Don't tease 'em, they bite. With this much manure around, there must be a pony somewhere.
Post #29,037 by mmoffitt 2/20/02 8:49:17 AM Reply	Re: Us/Them dichotomy avoided - good thing indeed.

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