That clears that up, then.

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Post #252,630

by pwhysall

4/19/06 2:42:04 PM

That clears that up, then.

Just saying "well, it's common sense" or "it's obvious" isn't evidence.

The people in question could well be a lot cheaper if they're externally hired, so yes, hiring more people could cost less.

Your point about responsiveness is interesting but probably moot in this age of zero company loyalty.

External management may well be more efficient.

My request for actual evidence instead of assertions stands.

Post #252,635

by imric

4/19/06 3:15:50 PM

*shrug*

I could say 'every instance I've ever seen' and you could counter with 'every report written by someone to justify the outsourcing decision'.

If you would like to believe that IT is a replaceable commodity, and that outsourcers are the only safe future, I'll not argue.

I believe - that while you may be right - that IS the way business is going (at least for now) - that this is a foolish, short-sighted fad that is bad for most businesses that indulge in it. Larger places full of stagnant management cultures may derive benefit from outsourcing - that doesn't mean it's a good or effective way to go. They see dollars (or pounds) on a spreadsheet and act like that's the cost; they see numbers of employees and figure that = 'effectiveness'.

I've heard not one argument to dissuade me - even a little - from my opinion on this matter. I've seen too much. Call me jaded.

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #252,637

by boxley

4/19/06 3:28:08 PM

you havnt even attempted to address my branched reply

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep

Outsourcing saves less than claimed - (lincoln) - (97) - April 13, 2006, 02:53:29 PM EDT

This is going to end up on a lot of corporate desks. - (imqwerky) - (92) - April 13, 2006, 08:00:27 PM EDT

Won't change anything - (ben_tilly) - (91) - April 13, 2006, 08:14:51 PM EDT

s/(mis)/(mc)/g -NT - (boxley) - April 13, 2006, 08:23:45 PM EDT

all true - (cforde) - (89) - April 14, 2006, 01:36:34 AM EDT

Assume that the truth is somewhere in between - (bepatient) - (88) - April 14, 2006, 09:48:51 AM EDT

That could still be mismanagement - (ben_tilly) - (87) - April 14, 2006, 12:32:14 PM EDT

Likely that internally would be mismanaged as well, then. - (bepatient) - (86) - April 14, 2006, 01:09:41 PM EDT

Outsourcing adds an extra layer of complexity. - (imric) - (8) - April 14, 2006, 01:15:39 PM EDT

Possibly. But not if done correctly - (bepatient) - (7) - April 14, 2006, 03:32:34 PM EDT

The right people can succeed no matter what - (ben_tilly) - April 14, 2006, 05:21:58 PM EDT

No matter what. - (imric) - (5) - April 14, 2006, 05:44:31 PM EDT

And I made the clarification earlier - (bepatient) - (4) - April 14, 2006, 06:06:47 PM EDT

We also have onsite staff. - (imric) - (3) - April 14, 2006, 08:29:36 PM EDT

The overall point - (bepatient) - (2) - April 14, 2006, 08:58:44 PM EDT

But ONLy if they are unwilling to reorganize to a more - (imric) - (1) - April 14, 2006, 09:03:34 PM EDT

There are ALOT of those, you >do< know this. -NT - (bepatient) - April 14, 2006, 09:05:39 PM EDT

Mostly agreed - (ben_tilly) - (76) - April 14, 2006, 08:46:00 PM EDT

Aye. -NT - (imric) - April 14, 2006, 05:46:04 PM EDT

Fully agree on core competence - (bepatient) - April 14, 2006, 06:08:57 PM EDT

so what are we trying to optimize? - (cforde) - (73) - April 14, 2006, 06:35:59 PM EDT

Bob Lewis at InfoWorld actually has a good one for this - (drewk) - (72) - April 14, 2006, 10:11:58 PM EDT

<advocate mode="devil">OTOH</advocate> - (imric) - (71) - April 14, 2006, 10:53:25 PM EDT

I think it's perspective and definitions - (drewk) - (18) - April 15, 2006, 08:59:45 PM EDT

And sales, warehousing, inventory - (imric) - (17) - April 15, 2006, 09:27:51 PM EDT

Do you have plumbers on staff? - (drewk) - (3) - April 15, 2006, 09:43:59 PM EDT

And when IT is as dependable as plumbing - (imric) - (2) - April 15, 2006, 10:31:03 PM EDT

It's ironic that you'd call plumbing "dependable" - (ben_tilly) - (1) - April 16, 2006, 03:25:25 PM EDT

You do have a point there - (imric) - April 16, 2006, 03:51:57 PM EDT

Example - (bepatient) - (12) - April 16, 2006, 03:12:53 PM EDT

You know me better than to - (imric) - (11) - April 16, 2006, 03:53:13 PM EDT

Who said anything about not having onsite staff? - (bepatient) - (10) - April 16, 2006, 09:21:36 PM EDT

Failure financially. - (imric) - (9) - April 16, 2006, 10:14:57 PM EDT

No more likely - (bepatient) - (8) - April 17, 2006, 12:55:08 AM EDT

Nonsense. - (imric) - (7) - April 17, 2006, 07:09:09 AM EDT

IT is a commodity. - (pwhysall) - (3) - April 17, 2006, 07:56:31 AM EDT

Wait for this pendulum to swing back - (imric) - (1) - April 17, 2006, 09:02:11 AM EDT

All what eggs now? - (pwhysall) - April 17, 2006, 09:37:49 AM EDT

What you say is only somewhat true - (ben_tilly) - April 18, 2006, 01:08:46 AM EDT

All of your argument - (bepatient) - (2) - April 17, 2006, 08:16:39 AM EDT

Mmmmhmmm - (imric) - (1) - April 17, 2006, 08:58:05 AM EDT

Just simply wrong on many levels - (bepatient) - April 17, 2006, 12:20:11 PM EDT

Jumping in late - (danreck) - (51) - April 18, 2006, 04:28:30 PM EDT

And in line with this - (bepatient) - (48) - April 18, 2006, 05:41:42 PM EDT

Nor are they likely - (imric) - (38) - April 18, 2006, 05:57:35 PM EDT

Keep reaching - (bepatient) - (37) - April 18, 2006, 06:10:28 PM EDT

Step 1 - steal all the underwear. Step 3. Profit. - (imric) - April 18, 2006, 06:32:22 PM EDT

Come on Bill - (danreck) - (35) - April 18, 2006, 11:56:24 PM EDT

Sigh - (bepatient) - (34) - April 19, 2006, 09:37:20 AM EDT

Without IT, the business will fail - (imric) - (33) - April 19, 2006, 09:43:15 AM EDT

You continue to make a blanket statement that is not true - (bepatient) - (32) - April 19, 2006, 09:52:36 AM EDT

Mmmhmmm - (imric) - (31) - April 19, 2006, 10:16:30 AM EDT

Re: Mmmhmmm - (pwhysall) - (16) - April 19, 2006, 10:50:57 AM EDT

Unless more management = more efficient - (imric) - (12) - April 19, 2006, 11:18:44 AM EDT

branched outsourcing costs more (new thread) - (boxley) - April 19, 2006, 11:26:06 AM EDT

That clears that up, then. - (pwhysall) - (2) - April 19, 2006, 02:42:04 PM EDT

*shrug* - (imric) - (1) - April 19, 2006, 03:15:50 PM EDT

you havnt even attempted to address my branched reply -NT - (boxley) - April 19, 2006, 03:28:08 PM EDT

Skip, YOU haven't been reading - (ben_tilly) - (7) - April 19, 2006, 05:36:54 PM EDT

On the contrary! - (imric) - (5) - April 19, 2006, 06:02:13 PM EDT

look at SAP, Oracle Financials, PeopleSoft - (boxley) - (1) - April 19, 2006, 06:28:38 PM EDT

There's stuff like Sarbanes-Oxley too... -NT - (Another Scott) - April 19, 2006, 06:53:45 PM EDT

A new employee is coming Monday... - (ben_tilly) - (2) - April 19, 2006, 11:50:50 PM EDT

1 hour. Our procedures have it set up the day before. - (imric) - (1) - April 20, 2006, 07:33:56 AM EDT

If you don't have good procedures and people... - (ben_tilly) - April 20, 2006, 10:39:09 AM EDT

.... -NT - (imric) - April 19, 2006, 06:02:35 PM EDT

They're using different definitions of efficiency. - (Another Scott) - (2) - April 19, 2006, 11:23:38 AM EDT

Stop trying to spoil my fun :-) -NT - (bepatient) - (1) - April 19, 2006, 12:32:20 PM EDT

And mine! :-D -NT - (imric) - April 19, 2006, 01:09:46 PM EDT

Before this right shifts anymore - (danreck) - (1) - April 19, 2006, 10:58:37 AM EDT

Too true - (bepatient) - April 19, 2006, 11:10:29 AM EDT

No they aren't. They are oversimplifications - (bepatient) - (11) - April 19, 2006, 11:07:58 AM EDT

Straw men marching? - (imric) - (10) - April 19, 2006, 11:29:51 AM EDT

You are off your rocker - (bepatient) - (9) - April 19, 2006, 12:30:16 PM EDT

And what delivers that service? Robots? - (imric) - (8) - April 19, 2006, 01:03:08 PM EDT

Maybe - (bepatient) - (7) - April 19, 2006, 03:09:46 PM EDT

As long as you get it in a timely fashion, - (imric) - (6) - April 19, 2006, 03:25:31 PM EDT

Ah, we've taken the first step, grasshopper. - (bepatient) - (5) - April 19, 2006, 03:44:17 PM EDT

Cost <> price. - (imric) - (4) - April 19, 2006, 04:52:00 PM EDT

I have a hard time agreeing with any of this - (bepatient) - (3) - April 19, 2006, 06:03:32 PM EDT

So dollars are all. The spreadsheet is king. - (imric) - (2) - April 19, 2006, 10:43:42 PM EDT

Not everything. - (bepatient) - (1) - April 20, 2006, 12:44:05 AM EDT

roundandroundandroundandround -NT - (imric) - April 20, 2006, 07:09:38 AM EDT

Plants - (tuberculosis) - (8) - April 18, 2006, 06:22:57 PM EDT

No it's not - (drewk) - (2) - April 18, 2006, 07:43:00 PM EDT

If we are talking about offshoring, you are right. -NT - (bepatient) - (1) - April 19, 2006, 09:06:01 AM EDT

True -NT - (drewk) - April 19, 2006, 07:51:40 PM EDT

And one more time. - (bepatient) - (4) - April 19, 2006, 08:59:53 AM EDT

Where did I say offshore? - (tuberculosis) - (3) - April 19, 2006, 09:10:16 PM EDT

Re: Where did I say offshore? - (bepatient) - (2) - April 19, 2006, 09:34:32 PM EDT

Ah - well that is the crux of the offshoring problem - (tuberculosis) - (1) - April 19, 2006, 10:08:14 PM EDT

Understood... - (bepatient) - April 20, 2006, 12:45:24 AM EDT

Me too - (broomberg) - (1) - April 18, 2006, 10:37:18 PM EDT

Or maybe youhave the data - (bepatient) - April 19, 2006, 09:12:03 AM EDT

If it doesn't work, do more of it. - (Another Scott) - (3) - April 13, 2006, 08:45:09 PM EDT

The sign isn't appropriate - (danreck) - (2) - April 19, 2006, 12:07:30 AM EDT

Hola Danno! - (Ashton) - (1) - April 19, 2006, 06:09:12 AM EDT

Re: Hola Danno! - (danreck) - April 19, 2006, 09:36:58 AM EDT

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