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New Before this right shifts anymore
In the immortal words of Rodney King, "people, can't we all just get along?". I just want to say that outsourcing includes off-shoring. You are staffing personnel from an outside source - "out sourcing". You are correct in pointing this out.

My apology to Bill for reading too much into his posts (and I did put quotes around the "joyful" word). I think that the distinction between outsourcing and off-shoring was blurred from the original article. I understand that distinction as do you. The key issue to this discussion (IMNHO) is does the outsource add value or save money? Either way enhances the bottom line. As this article suggests, it does save money (in a static analysis) but nowhere near what the hucksters that market IT services (read Infoworld lately? Notice that SOA is just shy of SOAPBOX). As you have pointed out, many other variables are not included in these types of analysis, including morale and motivation.

The idea that IT is a cost center (to me) is completely irrelevent and dangerous given what resides in the datacenter. Everyone in an organization is a "cost center". The idea that a department is a revenue generator is arbitrary and merely an accounting convenience. At least this is how it is supposed to work. The idea of soft dollars versus hard, recurring costs, etc. They are all accounting conveniences.

So where does that leave us? You and Bill are debating an issue that I've already come down hard on your side with. I've labled most of corporate America MFAC anyway. They are starting to reap the rewards of a system that forces 3 month thinking. I also suspect that we (IT guys) are catching the backlash from all the mid-level managers we "downsized" when we flattened organizational structures with email, ERPs and scheduling software (Skip, it,s real).

What's even more ironic and sad though is that jobs like accountant are already being off-shored as they are perfectly suited to being outsourced. When I finish my CEO-algorithm, I'm going to right-size those bastards too.

;-)

Just a few thoughts,

Danno
New Too true
wish I could offshore senior management :-) I'd be way more productive.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
     Outsourcing saves less than claimed - (lincoln) - (97)
         This is going to end up on a lot of corporate desks. - (imqwerky) - (92)
             Won't change anything - (ben_tilly) - (91)
                 s/(mis)/(mc)/g -NT - (boxley)
                 all true - (cforde) - (89)
                     Assume that the truth is somewhere in between - (bepatient) - (88)
                         That could still be mismanagement - (ben_tilly) - (87)
                             Likely that internally would be mismanaged as well, then. - (bepatient) - (86)
                                 Outsourcing adds an extra layer of complexity. - (imric) - (8)
                                     Possibly. But not if done correctly - (bepatient) - (7)
                                         The right people can succeed no matter what - (ben_tilly)
                                         No matter what. - (imric) - (5)
                                             And I made the clarification earlier - (bepatient) - (4)
                                                 We also have onsite staff. - (imric) - (3)
                                                     The overall point - (bepatient) - (2)
                                                         But ONLy if they are unwilling to reorganize to a more - (imric) - (1)
                                                             There are ALOT of those, you >do< know this. -NT - (bepatient)
                                 Mostly agreed - (ben_tilly) - (76)
                                     Aye. -NT - (imric)
                                     Fully agree on core competence - (bepatient)
                                     so what are we trying to optimize? - (cforde) - (73)
                                         Bob Lewis at InfoWorld actually has a good one for this - (drewk) - (72)
                                             <advocate mode="devil">OTOH</advocate> - (imric) - (71)
                                                 I think it's perspective and definitions - (drewk) - (18)
                                                     And sales, warehousing, inventory - (imric) - (17)
                                                         Do you have plumbers on staff? - (drewk) - (3)
                                                             And when IT is as dependable as plumbing - (imric) - (2)
                                                                 It's ironic that you'd call plumbing "dependable" - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                                     You do have a point there - (imric)
                                                         Example - (bepatient) - (12)
                                                             You know me better than to - (imric) - (11)
                                                                 Who said anything about not having onsite staff? - (bepatient) - (10)
                                                                     Failure financially. - (imric) - (9)
                                                                         No more likely - (bepatient) - (8)
                                                                             Nonsense. - (imric) - (7)
                                                                                 IT is a commodity. - (pwhysall) - (3)
                                                                                     Wait for this pendulum to swing back - (imric) - (1)
                                                                                         All what eggs now? - (pwhysall)
                                                                                     What you say is only somewhat true - (ben_tilly)
                                                                                 All of your argument - (bepatient) - (2)
                                                                                     Mmmmhmmm - (imric) - (1)
                                                                                         Just simply wrong on many levels - (bepatient)
                                                 Jumping in late - (danreck) - (51)
                                                     And in line with this - (bepatient) - (48)
                                                         Nor are they likely - (imric) - (38)
                                                             Keep reaching - (bepatient) - (37)
                                                                 Step 1 - steal all the underwear. Step 3. Profit. - (imric)
                                                                 Come on Bill - (danreck) - (35)
                                                                     Sigh - (bepatient) - (34)
                                                                         Without IT, the business will fail - (imric) - (33)
                                                                             You continue to make a blanket statement that is not true - (bepatient) - (32)
                                                                                 Mmmhmmm - (imric) - (31)
                                                                                     Re: Mmmhmmm - (pwhysall) - (16)
                                                                                         Unless more management = more efficient - (imric) - (12)
                                                                                             branched outsourcing costs more (new thread) - (boxley)
                                                                                             That clears that up, then. - (pwhysall) - (2)
                                                                                                 *shrug* - (imric) - (1)
                                                                                                     you havnt even attempted to address my branched reply -NT - (boxley)
                                                                                             Skip, YOU haven't been reading - (ben_tilly) - (7)
                                                                                                 On the contrary! - (imric) - (5)
                                                                                                     look at SAP, Oracle Financials, PeopleSoft - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                                         There's stuff like Sarbanes-Oxley too... -NT - (Another Scott)
                                                                                                     A new employee is coming Monday... - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                                                                                         1 hour. Our procedures have it set up the day before. - (imric) - (1)
                                                                                                             If you don't have good procedures and people... - (ben_tilly)
                                                                                                 .... -NT - (imric)
                                                                                         They're using different definitions of efficiency. - (Another Scott) - (2)
                                                                                             Stop trying to spoil my fun :-) -NT - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                                                 And mine! :-D -NT - (imric)
                                                                                     Before this right shifts anymore - (danreck) - (1)
                                                                                         Too true - (bepatient)
                                                                                     No they aren't. They are oversimplifications - (bepatient) - (11)
                                                                                         Straw men marching? - (imric) - (10)
                                                                                             You are off your rocker - (bepatient) - (9)
                                                                                                 And what delivers that service? Robots? - (imric) - (8)
                                                                                                     Maybe - (bepatient) - (7)
                                                                                                         As long as you get it in a timely fashion, - (imric) - (6)
                                                                                                             Ah, we've taken the first step, grasshopper. - (bepatient) - (5)
                                                                                                                 Cost <> price. - (imric) - (4)
                                                                                                                     I have a hard time agreeing with any of this - (bepatient) - (3)
                                                                                                                         So dollars are all. The spreadsheet is king. - (imric) - (2)
                                                                                                                             Not everything. - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                                                                                 roundandroundandroundandround -NT - (imric)
                                                         Plants - (tuberculosis) - (8)
                                                             No it's not - (drewk) - (2)
                                                                 If we are talking about offshoring, you are right. -NT - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                     True -NT - (drewk)
                                                             And one more time. - (bepatient) - (4)
                                                                 Where did I say offshore? - (tuberculosis) - (3)
                                                                     Re: Where did I say offshore? - (bepatient) - (2)
                                                                         Ah - well that is the crux of the offshoring problem - (tuberculosis) - (1)
                                                                             Understood... - (bepatient)
                                                     Me too - (broomberg) - (1)
                                                         Or maybe youhave the data - (bepatient)
         If it doesn't work, do more of it. - (Another Scott) - (3)
             The sign isn't appropriate - (danreck) - (2)
                 Hola Danno! - (Ashton) - (1)
                     Re: Hola Danno! - (danreck)

Mmm... flame-roasted newbie...
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